Server advice

[ThatDeadDude]

I'm looking at performing the job of setting up all the IT systems when our small business moves to a new office. My bosses want to replace all of the 5 or so main workstations with Macs, and then have a new dedicated server set up in order to host our database and web solutions.

My networking experience is limited, so my question is, basically, what sort of system should I look at acquiring for a server. By this I mean what sort of specs are necessary, considering that we're looking for a system that will last through any medium term expansion of the business, and that potentially we are going to have some quite large databases up and running. We are also wanting to set up a web server, preferably on the same system, and are potentially looking at sharing the same databases between offices in the future. I assume it wouldn't be wise to have the network file/database server as our direct gateway to the internet, but how would I set up an alternative system?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Do you want a Mac server to match the workstations?

 

[nweaver]

Alternative to server as your gateway is to buy a router

I wouldn't put Web with the database, but that is my opinion.

the big questions are :
1. What OS's are you familer with (Linux, BSD, Windows, Mac)
2. What database S/W are you running
3. Budget

 

[TXJustin]

In addition to the questions nweaver asked, what type of web traffic are we talking about, and what kind of database volume? What kind of use will the clients have for the server? Basic authentication, small file storage, large file storage, e-mail ?

 

[ThatDeadDude]

Well, basically, the server will ideally be used to host pretty much everything from shared files to our company databases to the email server to anything else that comes to mind that it would seem more practical to be centrally hosted.

The only OS's I'm really familiar with are Windows, and Mac, though Mac at a far lower level. Other options weren't even available to me before I came to the UK, so I haven't had the chance to familiarise myself. We at this stage don't really mind what OS is running on the server, it will depend on what is most practical for what we need to do. It will at this stage kind of have to be Windows or Mac, as we use Filemaker for our databases, and they haven't released versions for other OS's at this stage (though I belive a Linux version is in the works).

As to database traffic, it could potentially be quite large, as we need to have both a web interface with the databases, and, the databases cover quite a bit - we are a property company and we use the system to be everything from client and customer databases, to a phone book, to property information storage, to accounts, and we're looking at being able to do video tours of the properties as well. We are also looking to open new offices soon, and ideally we would want to be able to share the same database through a small VPN.

File storage will be limited to the databases and any documents or images or whatever that need to be shared. Web traffic is unlikely to be huge - we basically just want to be able to have a decent company site going, with a database interface in order to have the properties up.

Budget... I'm not entirely sure about this one. I'd say we're at the mid-level in that we don't really need or want an uber piece of hardware capable of sentience, but we also don't really want something that only just pulls the job off. Unfortunately my bosses tend to be tight lipped about the exact amounts of money they're willing to spend.

 

[nweaver]

You would be better off getting 3-4 lower end servers and breaking the workload out amoung them.

1. Lower end server (Dell Powerapp 110 would work, dual 1G p3's, 2 GB's ram) for Web. I would say run Linux/Apache/Samba (for updating the website files)
2. Old machine w/good disk subsystem, such as raid5 w/hotspare and tape to backup all other servers to (linux + samba, P2ish level w/external disk array?)
3. Decent midrange server designed for the database from Dell. That would require win2k3. Give pleanty of room to grow the databases, I would say 4 gigs of ram minimum, decent disk subsystem (SATA?)

The other important thing to work on now is network (gig backed for servers, with gig uplink to the rest of the network?) redundancy and backups (Raid 5 is a redundant system, but is NOT a backup)

Notice I didn't mention Mac servers. I have no experience. Hopefully somene with experience will pipe up and tell me if I put any obvious craptastic reccomendations.

 

[TXJustin]

Hmm. A better place to start might be to ask what you are using now? You and the bosses will have to decide how important these pieces are to your overall business. Say that the system goes down for 4 hours -- is that an acceptable inconveniece that your customers would understand, or does it mean a loss of thousands of dollars? I've worked at a center that had an entire off-site backup center complete with servers and workstations. If a tornado hit the center, everyone can drive 10 miles away to the other center and continue to be productive. The dollars lost during downtime were so high, it justifies spending that kind of money.

For an office with only 5 or so workstations, assuming your web traffic isn't too bad -- I'd say to go with a decent server (like a Dell 2800 with a raid setup and 4 gigs of ram -- probably about 5k) running SBS. The ideal, as nweaver pointed out, would be multiple servers -- but I'm guessing that may not be in the budget.

 

[vi edit]

I need to ask this up front....

What is your budget? Are we talking $5,000? $10,000? For the 5 desktops, file & web servers?

As was mentioned, look at a Poweredge 2800 (or 2850 if you want rack mount) for the file/network server and slap Small Business Server on it.

Dell also has some very reasonably priced rack mount web servers with Win2k3 Web server on them. Good utility boxes that don't take up much space and are priced around $1500 w/ an OS.

If you aren't *forced* to get a Mac, I'd just pick up some Optiplex GX260/280's for around $500 a piece + monitors. Good warranties. Easy to work on if needed. Quiet. Ect.

 

[nweaver]

TBH, unless you have a dying reason, I would run *bsd or linux for the web server, saves you an OS that you don't need. Powerapp 110's came with a custom rolled RH9 distro iirc

 

[ThatDeadDude]

Though of course we want to keep downtime to a minimum, in my best opinion, I don't think we are going to lose 1000s if the server goes down for a couple of hours, especially in the case of any web server. As I mentioned before though, we do use our database system to handle basically everything in the office, so again though some downtime is acceptable there, for that some form of backup is essential.
And regretfully, yes, I have a feeling that we probably will be limited to one server and some form of backup system, as much for space reasons as for budgetary ones.

Another question, maybe a stupid one, but how does one set up a web server when it's not on a system directly connected to the internet? I don't have much experience in that side of things.

 

[TXJustin]

Originally posted by: ThatDeadDude
Another question, maybe a stupid one, but how does one set up a web server when it's not on a system directly connected to the internet? I don't have much experience in that side of things.

You can't. If there is not going to be a dedicated internet connection to your server, it can not host a website. For that you would need to seek external hosting. ... oh, and by internet connection, I'm not talking about a standard 1.5/128 internet connection. You can't run more than a few casual website connections with that -- and likely very few with the tours you mentioned earlier.

Depending on your web needs and setup, it might be to your advantage to have that (as well as e-mail) externally hosted. You could then use a much "smaller" server in house for file storage and e-mail retrieval -- for 5 users you could go with a small Dell SC server.

The hosting company will also have more infrastructure in place to ensure up-time and backups of your web data, taking that burden off of you.

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: ThatDeadDude

Another question, maybe a stupid one, but how does one set up a web server when it's not on a system directly connected to the internet? I don't have much experience in that side of things.

That's easy. I assume you mean you are connecting to the internet through a firewall. All you do is log on to the firewall management interface and set it to forward TCP port 80 to the internal ip of your webserver. Then people out on the internet can connect to it by using the external ip of your firewall.

As per previous posts, I would also suggest getting the cheapest 1U or 2U rackmount Dell servers and putting only one application on each server. It will save you a TON of headaches in the future.

If the budget is too tight, I wouldn't even worry about getting a rack, just stack the servers in a cabinet or on a shelf, and get a rack when you can afford it.

 

[nweaver]

Get at least 2 servers. You don't want to drop you databases because your webserver got hacked, and vice versa.

And port forwarding works great for a single site on an internal box, but you may want to look at hosting a an alternative to 2 servers. That is a good idea!

 

[ThatDeadDude]

Seeing as we're looking to have the site interface with the same FileMaker database as we use for everything else, I'm not sure if external hosting really all that viable. I suppose we could rather synchronise with a mySQL database or something, however, to the best of my knowledge there's no particularly elegant way to do this with FileMaker - most solutions I've read about consist of exporting as CSV, then reformatting, then reimporting, etc. Having it locally hosted, I'm looking at using software called cafePHP, or if we decide it's worth it in future, FileMaker Server 7 Advanced.
When I asked how to host when a PCs not directly connected to the net, I was more thinking in terms of making use of ICS. I suppose in a more advanced network than our current one, we would make use of other methods anyway. (Our current network is very, very basic, which is why I'm researching upgrades)
Another thing my bosses want me to look at is the use of thin clients, in order to limit what people other than those who need to can do with their computers. It worth it?

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: ThatDeadDude
Seeing as we're looking to have the site interface with the same FileMaker database as we use for everything else, I'm not sure if external hosting really all that viable. I suppose we could rather synchronise with a mySQL database or something, however, to the best of my knowledge there's no particularly elegant way to do this with FileMaker - most solutions I've read about consist of exporting as CSV, then reformatting, then reimporting, etc. Having it locally hosted, I'm looking at using software called cafePHP, or if we decide it's worth it in future, FileMaker Server 7 Advanced.
When I asked how to host when a PCs not directly connected to the net, I was more thinking in terms of making use of ICS. I suppose in a more advanced network than our current one, we would make use of other methods anyway. (Our current network is very, very basic, which is why I'm researching upgrades)
Another thing my bosses want me to look at is the use of thin clients, in order to limit what people other than those who need to can do with their computers. It worth it?

Are you wanting to do ICS, like through a Windows computer? You would be better off picking up a $50 router and using it to share your internet connection.

 

[ThatDeadDude]

Yeah, I'm fairly sure that would be a better option. It's just that we're currently using ICS at this office, and I was trying to find a solution as to how to set up a mail server on one of the ICS clients for testing purposes. Looks like I'll just be doing it on the gateway PC though.