Server hardware is a ripoff

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ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,135
2,445
126
Hmm...this is worth considering. Here is the sticking point though. They want an SSD based server. A real server rated SSD is very expensive. They want them in raid 1, and they want 1tb capacity, so this makes it very expensive when a basic (real) server would otherwise be very affordable. There is no point in getting server grade hardware and skimping on the SSDs, so I priced out a regular, completely skimped rig instead. Its all or nothing. No point in having a real server with a massive weak link in the form of consumer grade SSDs.

The cheap and easy way to do this better is to back the system to up to tape and then have someone store the tape off site. Rotate the tapes so you're not using the same tape all of the time.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
lol you guys are funny. I priced out a simple i5 box, onboard video with a 1tb 850evo. Simple. It will be fine. They wanted a raid 1 setup, but I think a single SSD will be fine. Relax, we got Carbonite bitmches.

Do yourself a favour; call Dell and tell them # of users and current file space used, ask what you'd need to start and add in room for file growth.

Local backup is the way to go.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
Most? You're talking Dell or HP or a similar vendor. Lots of server hardware comes with no such support.

Small business with one box, supported by your brother in law or the local high school kid. Probably not a lot of need for 24/7 on site support. The server goes down, you go fishing for the day.

Yeah if the server goes down, the boss checks out the carbonite back up, which is done daily I think, or possibly more frequently, and I stop doing what I'm doing long enough to either fix the stupid rig or order a new one. It would suck a little, but we'd just fix it.

We may do the raid thing. That would be a form of local back up. At least its better than no backup at all locally.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,513
221
106
An eBay DL380 G5 would be a better bet than a desktop-turned-server..redundant NICs, redundant power supplies, redundant drives, ECC RAM...

They don't have money for a proper server, but they insist on a 1TB SSD for a low-use low-bandwidth "server"? WTF?
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Yeah if the server goes down, the boss checks out the carbonite back up, which is done daily I think, or possibly more frequently, and I stop doing what I'm doing long enough to either fix the stupid rig or order a new one. It would suck a little, but we'd just fix it.

We may do the raid thing. That would be a form of local back up. At least its better than no backup at all locally.

Repeat after all us: RAID is not backup!
 

Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,174
524
126
Make sure you get a CPU and RAM that you can overclock.

Of course, if it's not your company or your money, it's almost certainly foolish to worry about saving money on a server just because you're thinking "Damn, my last gaming rig didn't cost that much, and it even had water cooling, a case with a windows, and a bunch of fans with LEDs!".

That's what you get when you let the pasty guy out of his cubicle and have him purchase mission-critical systems. You get something on which you can play WoW, but will be down for 48 hours if it blows a motherboard.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
this is probably why you should keep your designer hat on.

Oh I agree. Believe me when I say I don't care for this shit. I build one gaming rig every few years and don't give a damn in between those times. I have an IT friend and he talks to me like I care. It puts me in a coma.

Repeat after all us: RAID is not backup!

RAID IS NOT BACK UP. There, I said it. But I swear I thought that's what raid 1 was for.
 

Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,174
524
126
And why is this posted in Off Topic? Move it to one of the hardware forums where folks will be sure to rip you a new one.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,513
221
106
Oh I agree. Believe me when I say I don't care for this shit. I build one gaming rig every few years and don't give a damn in between those times. I have an IT friend and he talks to me like I care. It puts me in a coma.



RAID IS NOT BACK UP. There, I said it. But I swear I thought that's what raid 1 was for.

RAID1 is for redundancy - so you can have a drive fail and not have downtime.

I was going to say you probably won't have SNMP set up to alert you for hardware failures either - but it doesn't really matter since any hardware failure is going to bring you hard down. :awe:
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Oh I agree. Believe me when I say I don't care for this shit. I build one gaming rig every few years and don't give a damn in between those times. I have an IT friend and he talks to me like I care. It puts me in a coma.

RAID IS NOT BACK UP. There, I said it. But I swear I thought that's what raid 1 was for.

Redundant Array of Independent Disks

Simply, RAID 1 means that if one disk fails you can keep running on the remaining disk until you get the failed disk replaced. According to the instructions for your hardware, once you replace the failed disk the RAID schema will synchronise the new disk with the old.

If something happens to the system while that is occurring, that's when a recent backup is handy (and lifesaving) to have.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
RAID1 is for redundancy - so you can have a drive fail and not have downtime.

I was going to say you probably won't have SNMP set up to alert you for hardware failures either - but it doesn't really matter since any hardware failure is going to bring you hard down. :awe:

Basic computers are pretty reliable though. I can't remember the last time a computer has actually broken on me. I'm not sure if its ever happened. This little file server I'm building will probably see less activity than the rig I'm NEFFING on right now.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
We have a Dell 1655 Blade from 2003 that is still up and running just fine. :thumbsup:

Old servers can run for a long time, nobody is questioning that. An old server running fine isn't the problem. The problem is an old server that breaks. If your revenue isn't affected go down for a few days while you rebuild a server, then sure, go cheap. It's all about risk management.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,513
221
106
Basic computers are pretty reliable though. I can't remember the last time a computer has actually broken on me. I'm not sure if its ever happened. This little file server I'm building will probably see less activity than the rig I'm NEFFING on right now.

Like I said, if downtime doesn't cost you money, then it doesn't really matter.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Glad I'm not the only one who caught that!

When I worked for the cable co, we rolled out an online backup option. It had unlimited storage and really wasn't a bad deal...except that they made us pitch it hard to every single person we talked to. Well some photographer guy called in having problems. It seems his drive had been backing up for over 3 days and wasn't anywhere close to being done. Turns out he had hundreds of gigs of pics he was backing up. His upload speed was somewhere around 1Mb, so he was looking at somewhere around 700 hours before everythign would be backed up. And that was if he didn't do anything else!

I'd never depend on online backup for a primary backup. Disk-to-disk with de-duplication, then mirrored offsite is my preference. The backups can finish quickly over the LAN and then a lazy update to the offsite mirror for disaster recovery.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
Redundant Array of Independent Disks

Simply, RAID 1 means that if one disk fails you can keep running on the remaining disk until you get the failed disk replaced. According to the instructions for your hardware, once you replace the failed disk the RAID schema will synchronise the new disk with the old.

If something happens to the system while that is occurring, that's when a recent backup is handy (and lifesaving) to have.

Can I get an external hard drive that auto backs up during the day? Like a scheduled backup thing? That way if this cheap gaming mobo decides to frag itself and something goes wonkey with the drives, at least we can buy a new rig real quick and have the data to dump back on there. Might be faster than carbonite. We can use carbonite if the building catches on fire or something I suppose, or if we lose the external drive. This all seems so unlikely though.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,653
7,882
126
Redundant Array of Independent Disks

Simply, RAID 1 means that if one disk fails you can keep running on the remaining disk until you get the failed disk replaced. According to the instructions for your hardware, once you replace the failed disk the RAID schema will synchronise the new disk with the old.

If something happens to the system while that is occurring, that's when a recent backup is handy (and lifesaving) to have.
That's for the weak. His boss will really appreciate the blazing speed of RAID0 SSDs. If he goes with RAID0, he'll get a promotion for sure.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Can I get an external hard drive that auto backs up during the day? Like a scheduled backup thing? That way if this cheap gaming mobo decides to frag itself and something goes wonkey with the drives, at least we can buy a new rig real quick and have the data to dump back on there. Might be faster than carbonite. We can use carbonite if the building catches on fire or something I suppose, or if we lose the external drive. This all seems so unlikely though.

raid + local backup + online backup = sufficient
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,513
221
106
Can I get an external hard drive that auto backs up during the day? Like a scheduled backup thing? That way if this cheap gaming mobo decides to frag itself and something goes wonkey with the drives, at least we can buy a new rig real quick and have the data to dump back on there. Might be faster than carbonite. We can use carbonite if the building catches on fire or something I suppose, or if we lose the external drive. This all seems so unlikely though.

It's also unlikely that a construction crew will cut the main fiber line servicing your building, but if it does you'd be glad you had that coax cable failover.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
Like I said, if downtime doesn't cost you money, then it doesn't really matter.

I don't think it would actually cost us money. If I happened to be in the middle of time critical project, then that could be a pain in the ass. In that instance, I can grab the files from carbonite or our local backup if we use an external backup drive and just work from my desktop to finish the project. That would be some really bad timing though and is unlikely. We aren't as critically dependent on this stuff as a larger company would be.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
raid + local backup + online backup = sufficient

This sounds reasonable and we can implement that without issue. It will just be a matter of buying a new PC or fixing it if this server actually BREAKS on them. At least we will be able to get our data.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
That's for the weak. His boss will really appreciate the blazing speed of RAID0 SSDs. If he goes with RAID0, he'll get a promotion for sure.

If they're currently on a Pentium 4 like moonbogg says, they'll appreciate the blazing speed of a 10K HDD, never mind an SSD.
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
9,022
599
126
Can I get an external hard drive that auto backs up during the day? Like a scheduled backup thing? That way if this cheap gaming mobo decides to frag itself and something goes wonkey with the drives, at least we can buy a new rig real quick and have the data to dump back on there. Might be faster than carbonite. We can use carbonite if the building catches on fire or something I suppose, or if we lose the external drive. This all seems so unlikely though.

CrashPlan allows for local backups to an external drive using the same service used for their online backup. Not sure about Carbonite.


I don't think it would actually cost us money. If I happened to be in the middle of time critical project, then that could be a pain in the ass. In that instance, I can grab the files from carbonite or our local backup if we use an external backup drive and just work from my desktop to finish the project. That would be some really bad timing though and is unlikely. We aren't as critically dependent on this stuff as a larger company would be.

Time is money, though.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,513
221
106
If they're currently on a Pentium 4 like moonbogg says, they'll appreciate the blazing speed of a 10K HDD, never mind an SSD.

They're probably going over a 100Mbps network though, so it's not really going to make much difference other than seek times.
 
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