Server Recommendations

[Kenazo]

OK, so I was asked to come up with a quote for a server for a smallish manufacturing company with probably 25 employees. (if anyone saw my previous post about a drafting computer, it's for the same company). I won't be dealing with any of the network management, I just need to come up w/ a quote for a server, and seeing as how I've only done desktops until now, I figured this would be a great place to ask for recommendations.
They will be using it mainly to store files, rather than saving them on local drives. their network is not connected to the internet at all, though I suppose it could be in the future. Of course some sort of mass back up is a must, they had a tape drive till now.

I was thinking of fielding a quote using an ASUS SK8V motherboard, some opteron CPU, dual 80 gig SATA drives in Raid 1, a gig of ECC. what else do I need to consider? What OS? 2003 server, or should I recommend they stick w/ 2000 server.
any suggestions?

 

[loup garou]

I would suggest not building a server. Head over to Dell and configure a PowerEdge. A warranty on the full system (with same- or next-day parts replacement/service) is definitely what you want with a server. You don't want to have a whole office of users pissed off at you while you're trying to RMA a dead mobo or psu to newegg or wherever.

That said, if this is only going to be a fileserver, I'd probably go single P4, 1GB RAM, SCSI RAID 5(I still don't trust IDE RAID in a server environment), and SCSI tape backup. As far as OS, I'd probably get 2003 SBS, plus you get an additional 5 CALs if you register your copy on the MS site, then purchase another 15 CALs. That should be cheaper than 2003 enterprise, plus you get Echange, Sharepoint, etc for future use.

 

[bgroff]

Like werk said, if this is going to be a file server DO NOT USE ide software raid. The ONLY IDE SATA raid worth considering for a real server is the 3ware Escalade 8506 series. This works with Windows NT/2k/XP/2k3 and Linux and is hardware raid...

But if you don't want to deal with the horror of hardware failure, go with the Dell.

 

[cmetz]

Kenazo, gotta agree with the other folks here. Wait until Dell decides to be competitive again on pricing for their PE400SC - they're often cheaper than you can build it if you get it stripped. Then add disks and memory yourself - Dell seems to sell the base system cheap and profit on the upgrades. The Dell IDE RAID controller (the PERC whatever flavor) should actually be a good card and might be worth the money even though it's darn expensive.

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: cmetz
Kenazo, gotta agree with the other folks here. Wait until Dell decides to be competitive again on pricing for their PE400SC - they're often cheaper than you can build it if you get it stripped. Then add disks and memory yourself - Dell seems to sell the base system cheap and profit on the upgrades. The Dell IDE RAID controller (the PERC whatever flavor) should actually be a good card and might be worth the money even though it's darn expensive.

Does their IDE Raid controller use SATA, or 133?

 

[Kenazo]

Ok, so here is something I priced out (it's a 230 kbyte word document) Text

keep in mind these are Cdn prices. Would that be wicked overkill for this application? anything i should change?

An explanation as to why there are 7 hard drives in the quote: 4 SATA's to run in raid 0+1, and 3 ATA 133's for backup. 2 left onsite, one taken off site once a week.

What do you think?

EDIT with summary of the word file:

Asus SK8V
Opteron 144
2x512 Kingston HyperX registered ECC
GF4mx440
Antec 1080 case w/ 430watt trupower
floppy+52 CD-rW
MICROSOFT WINDOWS SERVER STD 2003 CD 1-4CPU 5 CLIENTS
2x MICROSOFT WINDOWS SERVER 2003 5 CLIENT USER ACCESS LICENSE
4xMaxtor 80 gig SATA in Raid 0+1
3x80 gig USB 2.0 80 gig hard drives for Backup (2 for onsite, one offsite)

Total cost: $4000 cdn.

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: Kenazo
Ok, so here is something I priced out (it's a 230 kbyte word document) Text

keep in mind these are Cdn prices. Would that be wicked overkill for this application? anything i should change?

An explanation as to why there are 7 hard drives in the quote: 4 SATA's to run in raid 0+1, and 3 ATA 133's for backup. 2 left onsite, one taken off site once a week.

What do you think?

EDIT with summary of the word file:

Asus SK8V
Opteron 144
2x512 Kingston HyperX registered ECC
GF4mx440
Antec 1080 case w/ 430watt trupower
floppy+52 CD-rW
MICROSOFT WINDOWS SERVER STD 2003 CD 1-4CPU 5 CLIENTS
2x MICROSOFT WINDOWS SERVER 2003 5 CLIENT USER ACCESS LICENSE
4xMaxtor 80 gig SATA in Raid 0+1
3x80 gig USB 2.0 80 gig hard drives for Backup (2 for onsite, one offsite)

Total cost: $4000 cdn.

I think you are going to have a lot of headaches. IDE RAID, HD backups??? You're just asking for failures. Please take my advice to heart. For $4000 CDN (~$3000 US) you could get a great Dell (or any manufacturer) server with a good warranty. I'm only trying to save you future problems.

 

[Kenazo]

don't like the hard drive backup idea? The company has had so many issues w/ their tape backups that they didn't really want to go that way this time around. Keep in mind that w/ my $4000cdn quote, I had included the 15 CAL's they need.



looking at Dell's website, they only offer the 400SC w/ SATA raid.

PowerEdge 400SC
Intel® P®4 Processor at 2.8GHz, 512KB Cache, Windows 2003 Small Business Server, Standard Edition
Qty.: 1
Unit Price: $3,732.00
Date: 22/01/2004 10:22:48 AM
PowerEdge 400SC Intel® P®4 Processor at 2.8GHz, 512KB Cache
Memory 1.0GB DDR, 400MHz, 2X512MB
Keyboard Standard Windows Keyboard,Gray
Monitor NO MONITOR OPTION
Hard Drive Controller Serial ATA IDE Promise RAID Controller Card
1st Hard Drive 120GB 7.2K RPM Serial ATA IDE Hard Drive
2nd Hard Drive 120GB 7.2K RPM Serial ATA IDE Additional Hard Drive
Floppy Drive 3.5 in, 1.44MB, Floppy Drive
Operating System Windows 2003 Small Business Server, Standard Edition
Mouse Logitec System Mouse, Gray
Network Adapter Onboard NIC
Tape Backup Unit PV100T, IDE, TR40, 20/40GB, Internal TBU
CDROM / DVD ROM 48X CD-ROM
Operating System Options 20GB Utility Partition Size for Windows 2000
Documentation Electronic Documentation, PowerEdge 400SC
Tape Backup Software TapeWare, Tape Backup Software, Remote Server Pack Suite
Hard Drive Configurations C7, Add-In Serial ATA Promise RAID Card, RAID 1, 2 Serial ATA Hard Drives
Hardware Installation Services 3 Years limited warranty,3 yrs 4 Hour 5x9 Onsite Service
Direct Line Advanced Software Support, 1 yr Resolution
Installation Services DECLINE INSTALLATION
------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Price
Sub-total $3,732.00
Shipping $99.00
GST $268.17
PST $268.17
HST $0.00
Total Price $4,367.34


[edit] Thanks for all the advice though, Werk. i do really appreciate it!. , and will continue to investigate the suggestions you give. I don't think I'll get this contract anyway, but I figured it would be fun to bid. [/edit]

 

[groovin]

you can always go linux and save a grand on M$... that is if youre comfy with linux.

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: groovin
you can always go linux and save a grand on M$... that is if youre comfy with linux.

Nope. though I think i shall train myself. I know all the local comp stores sell windows exclusively, so If i can learn Linux well enough to run office networks, and I can save them $1000's of dollars, it should be an easy sell. But what's the deal w/ Sun's lawsuit? Will linux no longer be a "free" program?

 

[Nothinman]

don't like the hard drive backup idea?

We've had enough IDE disks die that I would never trust one for a long time with important data. And an article I saw about CDR discs that weren't readable after only a year makes me not want to use them either. It seems tapes are still the best way to go overall, especially if you use offsite backups.

The company has had so many issues w/ their tape backups that they didn't really want to go that way this time around

We backup dozens of terabytes to tapes across a ton of servers and other than a few bad tapes here and there they work great, if they had a lot of problems it was the operator's fault and not the hardware.

But what's the deal w/ Sun's lawsuit? Will linux no longer be a "free" program?

You mean SCO? I wouldn't worry about it, they're just looking to pump their stock for a while with meaningless press releases.

 

[loup garou]

You know, I'm usually one of the biggest MS supporters,but if money is tight, this would be a great opportunity to use/learn a linux flavor. You could save a bunch of green by getting a Dell server with no OS and throwing Linux on it. I think basically anyone can set up a basic Linux fileserver. Plus you get all the benefits of a waranteed, tested machine. And you can spend more money on hardware goodies.

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: werk
You know, I'm usually one of the biggest MS supporters,but if money is tight, this would be a great opportunity to use/learn a linux flavor. You could save a bunch of green by getting a Dell server with no OS and throwing Linux on it. I think basically anyone can set up a basic Linux fileserver. Plus you get all the benefits of a waranteed, tested machine. And you can spend more money on hardware goodies.

I'm in a position where I have next to 0 Linux experience. I think I'd want to learn it independently before I sell anything w/ it. Do you know of any good guides? I've found a bunch just by googling, but I'd prefer one that others recommend. Do I need to use an "enterprise" version of linux? like RedHat 9 Enterprise Server, or is there a different version that I should train myself in using first?

 

[groovin]

I'm in a position where I have next to 0 Linux experience. I think I'd want to learn it independently before I sell anything w/ it. Do you know of any good guides? I've found a bunch just by googling, but I'd prefer one that others recommend. Do I need to use an "enterprise" version of linux? like RedHat 9 Enterprise Server, or is there a different version that I should train myself in using first?

get a few old machines and get cracking! you dont need an enterprise version... they arent very popular anyways. there are many distros of linux... each has its own personality. up until recently, red hat linux and suse were kings of the hill... but thats all up in the air now. if you want an easy starters linux, try Mandrake. its red hat based. it has a graphical install (if im not mistaken). OR you can go with something a bit more difficult like slackware or debian which are text based installs. if you go with the more difficult, you will learn more but have many mnay more headaches. remember, each distro is a 'flavor'... there is no 'best' distro (u might get flamed if u ask this on a forum). each has its merits and flaws... investigate carefully.

as for guides, just download the documentation that each distro provides on their site, sign up on a few linux forums for any other misc questions.

 

[MysticLlama]

In your situation, I'd like to second, third, fouth, whatever, with what people have been saying.

Once 25 users are dependent on a server, you don't want something you built holding it up. I build very nice exceedingly stable systems and gaming rigs myself, and even have a couple of clone servers at the office, but they are for test purposes.

If anything is a production system, it's on a Compaq/HP Proliant server. I have had very few issues with my fleet, and when I have had issues I have the part the next day.

Personally, if I was building the first server for a company like that, I'd go with something like this... Proliant Tower
It already has SBS, you just need to buy the CALs, and a few more drives. It has an integrated SmartArray SCSI RAID controller, which supports 0, 1, or 10 (upgradable to 5 I believe, but you shouldn't need more than 1 anyways).

I really don't think you can buy a better server for the price range (except maybe something a lot like this someplace cheaper), and it's not better if you build it yourself.

 

[Mbonus]

I am in a similar situation. I will be shortly tasked with upgrading our file server. Has anyone on this board used the Dell servers? I like the suggestion of using a HP proliant but the costs seem to be pretty steep. Almost $3000 more for a similarly configured Dell (hot swap, raid 10, p3.06, 1meg)

The only problem is that we have had a good track record with the current compaq we are using for file service. The thing has run 24/7 since 1996 only down for system patches(p150, 64 Meg, 1.8 G scsi hd, Novell 4.11). There is something to be said for that! I am almost ready to just bite the bullet and go HP/Compaq just because of that track record.

One other thought I had, if the original poster wanted to go AMD, IBM sells an opteron server but they also are bucks. I believe they are a 1U case so if you wanted to do more than 2 drives and tape back-up, you would need an external bay. Also, I don't think I would use SATA in a server that I would have to support. Hot-Swap scsi is the way to go, if (when) a drive fails, you can just pop one right in there and let the RAID do it's trick.

I think I just answered my own questions, do I want to spend the money now on hardware, or later on downtime and my agravation.

 

[Nothinman]

I hate Dell, compared to our Compaq/HP servers they've been nothing but trouble. And recently they announced that a certain model has a tendancy to overhead and smoke. A lot of other little things piss me off about Dells like the Broadcom NICs which are in the default config suck (you can probably get HPs with them too, but I'm not sure) and they don't autonegotiate properly, the DRAC boards are useless as they require the OS to be up before you can use them and their support was less than impressive. They actually sent us a salesman to look at a demo unit we had, all he did was show up and sit on hold on the exact same support number we had. In the end they ended up replacing everything but the case on that demo to get it to work, nice QA there.

 

[Mbonus]

Yea, that is exactly what would scare me. Have one of there suppposed "techs" sitting on the phone to the same lame CS that I would get. I guess the old adage "you get what you pay for" holds true for the server market. Maybe I will just settle on raid 1, that option should save some money over Raid 10.

I know I should probably just start a new topic for this, but does anyone know what HP/Compaqs' ADG is on their Raid controllers(5304/6404)? To me it looks similar to RAID 10 but I am having a dificult time cutting through the marketing BS. It talks about mirroring with parity, isn't that raid 10? My main concern is fault tolerence with a secondary emphasis on performance. Storage size at present is irrelevent, so having 50% available storage does not bother me.

 

[Nothinman]

IIRC ADG is like RAID 5 but it requires 2 extra disks for parity, this is so you can lose up to 2 disks at a time instead of just 1 like you could with RAID 5.

 

[Mbonus]

Thanks...

I am not sure that I am that paranoid yet. Sounds similar to Raid 15. As long as I have a good tape back up with disaster recovery, I should be fine with Raid 1. That should save me well over $1500 alone.

What is the most preferred current tape solution? Right now we are running dds/1 with arcsrver 6.5 for netware. I think arcserve is now owned by brightstor, are they still a good solution or are there better?

 

[exx1976]

HP? Compaq? DELL?? Next I'm going to be hearing about Gateway servers.. MAN!!

I-B-M. PERIOD. The ONLY HP I have here is a Superdome. Everything else is just junk.

If I was going to recommend a box, I'm VERY partial to rack-mount servers, I'd go with an x335 with a 4Lx card and a pair of 73 or 146Gb drives, 1Gb of RAM, and a nice processor. If you want more storage space, step up to an x345, but the chassis price damn near doubles.. But, then you can have redundant PS's too..

IBM tower servers are also very nice. VERY solid, too.. I presently have over 50 IBM servers: 330s, 335s, 345s, netfinity's, and various tower boxes.. The x2XX series are pretty nice. Check em out, quite reasonable too.

As for an OS, look at Small Busniess Server. Get them everything they need for cheap.

 

[Nothinman]

I-B-M. PERIOD. The ONLY HP I have here is a Superdome. Everything else is just junk.

If you only have 1 HP server how would you know about the rest of them?

 

[Mbonus]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I have not ruled out IBM by any means. I would probably go with one of their tower models with hot swap and internal tape. Again, there prices were significantly higher than Dell, but I am wary of going with Dell because of perceived reliability.

This will be a file server. I am thinking xeon 2.8, 1 meg, Raid 1 w/ 36.6 drives w/hot spare, TBU DDS/4, OS Novell latest variant.

 

[Nothinman]

OS Novell latest variant.

If I were you I would go straight to Linux unless you want/need NCP file sharing. Novell is moving from NetWare to Linux with NetWare 7.

 

[Mbonus]

I know absolutely nothing about linux. That is also not to say that I know much about current novell. My main job is treasurer, but we are a small company so I am IT as well. My biggest reason for staying with novell is to easily be able to migrate my programs and data to the new server. Looks like I have a lot more research to do other than just hardware.