Servers that kick HPB's

[namelessentity]

I figured this would be a good place to ask this since this community knows how to use computers for more than just games.

Why do some game servers kick people with high ping? I've noticed most CS:S servers have scripts that kick people with 200+ ping claiming it lags the server. I really can't understand where this logic comes from. If someone is using 56k they would be using much less bandwidth than someone with say a T1, so it shouldn't even have any effect, right? Anyone know something I'm not seeing?

 

[pontifex]

probably they warp and stutter all over the place, making them hard to hit sometimes?

 

[namelessentity]

Well, I can see why you wouldn't want them. They're hard to hit and you want to keep the level of play fairly even. I just want to know why most people are under the assumption that people on 56k lag the server.

 

[KeithTalent]

Isn't ping the round-trip amount of time for data between the server and the user? Therefore if you are on a slower connection, the trip will take longer, hence your ping will be higher? Which would also explain why 56kers/high-pingers are jumping all over the place because there is lag between when the data is sent/received.

Of course, I could just be talking out of my arse here, but it sounds reasonable to me.

KT

 

[Markbnj]

Depending on the game's network architecture they may also lag everyone else out. Whoever it was that asked why people assume 56k connections are laggy was right to point that out. It's latency that counts, not bandwidth. I doubt most games ever use more than 64kbps. Of course, 56k connections often have pretty bad latency too.

 

[ahurtt]

It is my impression that with some games, Counter-Strike in particular, hit detection is done client side, NOT server side. People with high pings are continually in the past in relation to everyone else on the server so their client is sending out of date data. Ever run around a corner to get away from a dude who was shooting at you only to think you are safely out of the line of fire only to die about a second later appearing to have been shot from around a corner? Homing bullets? No. It's cuz' his hit data just reached the server while to you it looked like you got away. Make sense? Somebody please correct me if I am wrong on this. Keep in mind also that upstream speeds (the speed at which your computer can send data) is often slower than downstream speed (the speed at which you can receive data) for a lot of people.

Counterstrike has something called "choke." In CS, the ideal choke is 0. Choke is kind of like how much data your computer "skips" or "drops" when transmitting to the server. People on slow dial up often have high choke rates which can be attributed to the way you see them appearing to jump and warp around on the screen. Because their client is sort of dropping packets sometimes to try and keep them in sync with the rest of the people in the game. So basically, it keeps everybody from competing on a level playing field.

 

[Anubis]

200 really isnt even that high, its in the "Green" on basicially everything

 

[RandomFool]

Originally posted by: Anubis
200 really isnt even that high, its in the "Green" on basicially everything

I think of 100 as high...

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: RandomFool

Originally posted by: Anubis
200 really isnt even that high, its in the "Green" on basicially everything

I think of 100 as high...

i have the best cable connection i can get here 8/512 and ive never seen under 100, ever

normally im in the mid to high 100s or low 200s

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: RandomFool

Originally posted by: Anubis
200 really isnt even that high, its in the "Green" on basicially everything

I think of 100 as high...

i have the best cable connection i can get here 8/512 and ive never seen under 100, ever

normally im in the mid to high 100s or low 200s

I used to get 35 on verizon DSL, then upgraded to cable and now i cant seem to get under 90.

 

[Phokus]

Because they're racists.

 

[Stas]

there 4 times of delay in networks: processing, propagation, transmission, and queuing. With an online video game the only 2 that matter are transmission and propagation. The setup for dial-up and DSL is physically almost identical: propagation delay for these connections is higher than cable, probably because in telephone lines, signal travels longer through copper before it reaches fiber (cable only goes from your house to the main switch that's setup in the area - a few blocks, after than it's fiber. whereas telephone cabel could go for a couple of miles to the station, and then it's not neccessarily using fiber until it gets to the backbone). With transmission, dial-up does not have enough throughout to allow traffic to go in and out with no wait times, so there is your lag there, too. And keep in mind that games normally use UDP for packet transfer (to minimize the processing delay. plus it's pointless to use TCP, as interaction is very time sensetive), so you will lose packets. Also, depending on the path the connection is established on, you could be going through a relatively heavy loaded router that will drop packets because its queue gets full, therefore you "lag." And playing on servers that are more than 500-800 miles away... well, let's just say it's unreasonable (for an FPS at least).

 

[sandorski]

HPBs don't "Lag the server", but they're as annoying as Hell. They just appear here, then there, then somewhere else.

 

[I4AT]

A high ping player won't "lag the server" in CS:S. Some games are designed to stop or slow down when one player experiences lag to keep an even playing field, such as Starcraft, CS isn't one of them.

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: RandomFool

Originally posted by: Anubis
200 really isnt even that high, its in the "Green" on basicially everything

I think of 100 as high...

i have the best cable connection i can get here 8/512 and ive never seen under 100, ever

normally im in the mid to high 100s or low 200s

Wow, really? The CS:S server I play on I get about 5-15 Ping and I have never hit over 80 on any TF2 server I have played on.

KT

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: RandomFool

Originally posted by: Anubis
200 really isnt even that high, its in the "Green" on basicially everything

I think of 100 as high...

i have the best cable connection i can get here 8/512 and ive never seen under 100, ever

normally im in the mid to high 100s or low 200s

Wow, really? The CS:S server I play on I get about 5-15 Ping and I have never hit over 80 on any TF2 server I have played on.

KT

i dont play CS: or TF2 so IDK what my ping would be on those
but for what i do play its always over 100

just hit up speedtest.net and it was 350, testted at 7887/490, which is about right

 

[lupi]

There's enough people playing with a broadband connection for the server admins to not care about letting them play.

 

[IEC]

I love my University's connection.

I get 5-15 ping for the servers I play on (Source games). Never really get over 150 even on games with bad netcode.

 

[Oyeve]

Heh, I remember getting kicked off servers for being a LPB.

 

[Matt2]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: RandomFool

Originally posted by: Anubis
200 really isnt even that high, its in the "Green" on basicially everything

I think of 100 as high...

i have the best cable connection i can get here 8/512 and ive never seen under 100, ever

normally im in the mid to high 100s or low 200s

Very strange. I have 10/512 cable and I never see a ping over 100. I play with a below 50ms ping in almost every game.

Then again, I dont just play on any server, I only play on the ones with good connections.

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: sandorski
HPBs don't "Lag the server", but they're as annoying as Hell. They just appear here, then there, then somewhere else.

That's not really latency so much as packetloss. I played UT2k4 on 56k for over 2 years(avg ping was 220). Nobody complained about me warping or anything, even when I specifically asked. Otoh, I've played people on cable who had good ping, but were dropping packets like mad, and it 's hard to get a fix on where they are. I don't really care either way. Their perspective is warping also, so it's still a level playing field.

 

[Skacer]

< 30ping = Practically lan play
30-60 = LPB
61-90 = MPB
91+ = HPB

Most CS:S servers kick anyone over 200 because Half-Life games have always had pretty shitty hit detection code. Back in the Quake days, there was a time when we didn't have client side hit detection or predictive movement (pushlatency). When you lagged excessively, you got a phonejack icon, froze in place, and anyone could kill you. Half-Life went really heavy on the client side prediction, to the point where the server would just take anyone's word. What this caused is a legit exploit, where all you have to do is bog your own network down and you can be lethal within the game. An easy example is to just start downloading off of BT, so that your upload speed gets taxed, your upload speed being taxed causes you to respond delayed to the game servers. In CS, this could allow you to warp down an entire tunnel and shotgun people in the face.

Client side prediction = favors higher pings = bad
It is a legacy from days when nobody could afford broadband.

 

[potato28]

I need to have the lower ping, under 20 is perfect, or I'll get really high ping to the servers. Doesn't help that I'm in Canada, with the CO of my DSL about 25 km away.

 

[Turkey22]

In addition to the current netcode within halflife giving HPB's an advantage by lag killing people the autokicks are a relic of the old netcode. In older versions of halflife a player with a high ping would "lag the server" and increase the latency for all other players. I have no idea what kind of wacky code they used to have in there that would do this, but it really used to happen.
My guess is most people remember that and think it still does.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Originally posted by: Anubis
i dont play CS: or TF2 so IDK what my ping would be on those
but for what i do play its always over 100

just hit up speedtest.net and it was 350, testted at 7887/490, which is about right

pings under 30 are common for me on my 6mbit/1mbit cable line.
different games have different pings depending on where the server is and if the server itself is overloaded and lagging.

For instance, when I connect to a Chicago TF2 server, my ping is usually less than 20.
When I connect to a NY or CA TF2 server, my ping is between 30 and 50.
When I used to play WoW, my ping would go up over 100 because their servers were so overloaded and therefore, the time it took for their server to reply after getting my initial ping packet was high. On a "good" day in WoW, my ping would be between 80-90.

That said, WoW is not a fast action FPS so it doesn't require as low of latency, and it also has TONS of overhead ....