Sex Change Operations CAN be Covered by Medicare

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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,593
29,299
136
To me this is too small an issue to get indignant about.

I used to be very wary of the validity of sexual reassignment surgery - to me it seemed like self-mutilation in indulgence of a mental illness, not a legitimate medical therapy. Since that time, though, I got to know and became friends with a female-to-male transsexual (he is actually married to my ex-GF's best friend). It took essentially no time to be convinced that he really is a man, and was one even when he was entirely female in appearance. I don't know how common this kind of gender dysphoria is, but it's a real phenomenon and honestly as long as there is adequate screening prior to any surgery or medical treatments, I have no problem with gender reassignment or being obligated to pay, through Medicare, for the vanishingly small number of Medicare-eligible people who undergo gender reassignment procedures.
Yeah I can't imagine this works out to more than a fraction of a cent per taxpayer per year.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,574
7,637
136
Don Vito Corleone has made us an offer we cannot refuse. A reasonable argument.

Still doesn't help me understand what benefit a male gets from being castrated. Am I missing something?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
There are folks with parts not properly formed, thus making gender identification as a baby very difficult. In those cases the gender is assigned and assumed. Sometimes that choice is wrong.

(1) This has nothing to do with transgendered people.

(2) You are mixing up the terms gender and sex. Sex is about biology; not gender.

(3) Just because sex can be misidentified does not mean it is "assigned".
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
Don Vito Corleone has made us an offer we cannot refuse. A reasonable argument.

Still doesn't help me understand what benefit a male gets from being castrated. Am I missing something?

No, you seem to have everything you feel you need. But what if you didn't? What if you had been born with out a penis? In all other ways male, with the urges you currently feel, but no penis to do anything about it?

(1) This has nothing to do with transgendered people.

(2) You are mixing up the terms gender and sex. Sex is about biology; not gender.

(3) Just because sex can be misidentified does not mean it is "assigned".

You are right about all these (well, mostly right on the first, but not fully), but I don't think you have ever posted a coherent argument on just why this matters.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
No, you seem to have everything you feel you need. But what if you didn't? What if you had been born with out a penis? In all other ways male, with the urges you currently feel, but no penis to do anything about it?

Urges? What urges?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
No, you seem to have everything you feel you need. But what if you didn't? What if you had been born with out a penis? In all other ways male, with the urges you currently feel, but no penis to do anything about it?

Evidence that being transgender is based on feeling the urge to stick a non-existent penis into something?

You are right about all these (well, mostly right on the first, but not fully), but I don't think you have ever posted a coherent argument on just why this matters.

Well if the people advocating for an idea cannot even keep their rhetoric straight what does that say for the idea?

Basically the question is why does "feeling" mentally as a woman preclude having a male body?

It is essentially an internal contradiction which on the one hand says gender and physiology are distinct and on the other hand says they are the same. Seems to me like sex reassignment surgery is merely transgendered individuals trying to conform to a cis-centric worldview and is therefore actually transphobic.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
Well if the people advocating for an idea cannot even keep their rhetoric straight what does that say for the idea?
Not much really. Many of the ideas around how gender and sex interact are hard to grasp, and take a while to really settle in. It is no surprise that a lot of people still get mixed up when talking about them.

Basically the question is why does "feeling" mentally as a woman preclude having a male body?
Simply put, it doesn't.

It is essentially an internal contradiction which on the one hand says gender and physiology are distinct and on the other hand says they are the same.
There is no contradiction. There are many ways in which gender and sex interact to form something different. It is not a simple system.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Those urges. You know what I'm talking about. I know you won't admit it here. Your identity is so wrapped up in not admitting it. But you also know what I'm talking about.

No, please explain what urges transgendered humans have that normal humans do not have. I want to know specifically what urges causes someone to have a physical requirement to be the opposite sex.

If they want to have sex with someone of the same physical sex as they are, homosexuals already have that figured out but without the mutilation.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,574
7,637
136
No, you seem to have everything you feel you need. But what if you didn't? What if you had been born with out a penis? In all other ways male, with the urges you currently feel, but no penis to do anything about it?

Is cutting down there going to resolve that? I support procedures that help people who are... disabled, physically. Yet I would oppose it for anyone who is intact and otherwise healthy.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Is cutting down there going to resolve that? I support procedures that help people who are... disabled, physically. Yet I would oppose it for anyone who is intact and otherwise healthy.

That includes physical, psychological, & mental health.

People who have gender dysphoria are distinctly not intact.

Speaking of sex changes where be Texas Hiker?

His SRS got botched; he's now being used as a living example of how NOT to do SRS
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
To me this is too small an issue to get indignant about.

I used to be very wary of the validity of sexual reassignment surgery - to me it seemed like self-mutilation in indulgence of a mental illness, not a legitimate medical therapy. Since that time, though, I got to know and became friends with a female-to-male transsexual (he is actually married to my ex-GF's best friend). It took essentially no time to be convinced that he really is a man, and was one even when he was entirely female in appearance. I don't know how common this kind of gender dysphoria is, but it's a real phenomenon and honestly as long as there is adequate screening prior to any surgery or medical treatments, I have no problem with gender reassignment or being obligated to pay, through Medicare, for the vanishingly small number of Medicare-eligible people who undergo gender reassignment procedures.

Honestly I'm not so sure I'd be as easily convinced. Just because it walks, talks and acts like it has a Y Chromosome doesn't mean it does. Unless psychologists and geneticists figure out how someone with a genetically male brain and body can somehow be "female", and vice-versa, I'm going to keep calling it self mutilation in service of a mental illness.

I could be absolutely convinced that I'm a dog in a man's body. I could act like a dog, emulate a dog's behavior perfectly. I could get surgically attached fur and tail, I could get a nose job to give me a snout. I could fuck female dogs. I still wouldn't be a dog.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
Unless psychologists and geneticists figure out how someone with a genetically male brain and body can somehow be "female", and vice-versa, I'm going to keep calling it self mutilation in service of a mental illness.
What exactly is a genetically male brain? I don't think the X or Y chromosome is responsible for brain formation. Therefor any differences between 'male' and 'female' brains would have to be hormonal not genetic.
Not only that but those differences between the 'male' and 'female' brain are a correlative and not deterministic. We simply can not look at a brain and determine if the person was male or female.

And your dog analogy is not only fallacious but offensive.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
What exactly is a genetically male brain? I don't think the X or Y chromosome is responsible for brain formation. Therefor any differences between 'male' and 'female' brains would have to be hormonal not genetic.
Not only that but those differences between the 'male' and 'female' brain are a correlative and not deterministic. We simply can not look at a brain and determine if the person was male or female.

And your dog analogy is not only fallacious but offensive.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854822/

Despite its small size, and limited gene content, we have argued here that the Y chromosome may exert a considerable influence on brain function. As a consequence of its inheritance pattern, genes upon it may help to define male-specific brain phenotypes, and hence male-typical behaviours.

In other words, while there's nothing that disproves the hormonal theory there is substantial evidence that the Y chromosome does indeed influence brain function. Precisely how and to what effect remains to be answered in detail.

As for whether we can look at a brain and determine it's gender, it would seem to have been possible since 1998.

In humans, SRY expression has been described in the medial rostral hypothalamus, frontal and temporal cortex [52].

The cited study is here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10732804



Until a conclusive answer is reached I'd classify transgenderism as a mental disease on behavioral components alone. I find it odd that were I to claim that I was an animal, even a close relative like a chimp, trapped in a human's body and wanted hair implants all over my body, I would be instantly classified as mentally ill. Yet if I claimed I was a woman trapped in a man's body and wanted to chop my dick off, taxpayers will apparently pay to support this view and many psychiatrists would encourage its expression. Likewise while homosexual behavior is present in other species, last I looked transgenderism was to the best of our knowledge a uniquely human abnormality.

And frankly if you're offended by the analogy, that's your problem. I see nothing fallacious about it.
 
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gevorg

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2004
5,075
1
0
Is sex-change a one way trip, or you can do a roundtrip? :biggrin:
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Until a conclusive answer is reached I'd classify transgenderism as a mental disease on behavioral components alone. I find it odd that were I to claim that I was an animal, even a close relative like a chimp, trapped in a human's body and wanted hair implants all over my body, I would be instantly classified as mentally ill. Yet if I claimed I was a woman trapped in a man's body and wanted to chop my dick off, taxpayers will apparently pay to support this view and many psychiatrists would encourage its expression. Likewise while homosexual behavior is present in other species, last I looked transgenderism was to the best of our knowledge a uniquely human abnormality.

And frankly if you're offended by the analogy, that's your problem. I see nothing fallacious about it.

The real problem is one of language. Some people decided that sex and gender were different things. However, they still use male and female to refer to the 2 genders/sexes. Saying that you are male sexed, but female gendered obviously sounds like a problem that needs "fixing" hence the sex reassignment surgery. If instead we changed things so that male/female was purely for sex and invented new words to refer to gender say blue gender and pink gender, then their would be no natural in-congruence between being of the male sex, but of the pink gender.
 

surfsatwerk

Lifer
Mar 6, 2008
10,110
5
81
Don Vito Corleone has made us an offer we cannot refuse. A reasonable argument.

Still doesn't help me understand what benefit a male gets from being castrated. Am I missing something?

My complete lack of any understanding is what makes me inclined to believe most of these cases are genuine. Having your junk cut off is pretty extreme and there must be a significant level of suffering to motivate them.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
My complete lack of any understanding is what makes me inclined to believe most of these cases are genuine. Having your junk cut off is pretty extreme and there must be a significant level of suffering to motivate them.

Killing yourself seems even more extreme.

Yet most people wouldn't argue that is a valid choice caused by significant levels of suffering. But that it is instead caused by mental illness.
 

surfsatwerk

Lifer
Mar 6, 2008
10,110
5
81
Killing yourself seems even more extreme.

Yet most people wouldn't argue that is a valid choice caused by significant levels of suffering. But that it is instead caused by mental illness.

Swing and a miss, but thanks for playing.
 
Dec 26, 2007
11,783
2
76
But why does gender dyphoria get "special" treatment besides the obvious lobbying? Body dysmorphic disorder is also a recognized and diagnosed mental illness, so wouldn't having the taxpayers pay for liposuction, synthahol injections, gastric bypass, etc. also be warranted under that rationale? I'm sure that those procedures wouldn't "feel elective" to the people suffering from them, either...

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to have the procedure; just that we shouldn't be forcing an already broke government to use our money to pay for it.

Please point to all the lobbying done. I won't go so far as to say there is not lobbying, but the "lobbying" being done is next to nothing compared to what lobbying goes on in Washington. Look at Comcast and net neutrality among others. There might be a few hundred thousand a year spent for transgender issues, but orders of magnitude more spent on just about anything else.

At one time being gay was also considered a "psychological disorder." And to many it still is viewed as one. That doesn't mean it actually is a "disorder." Biological sex and gender identity are not the same thing, and cause major issues for people who have a mis-match between them. Transgendered individuals have some of the highest suicide rates out there (http://articles.latimes.com/2014/ja...uicide-attempts-alarming-transgender-20140127).

If SRS helps them, then we as a society should help with that. Besides, there are bigger issues to fight over. And by the logic presented in this thread by many people, Medicare/Medicaid should not pay to treat people who have diseases from smoking. But we do. And that's a massively larger group than people with gender issues. So if you want to make the argument that "if people choose to change genders, that's fine as long as I don't pay for it" then how can you hold the position that "a person who chose to smoke all their life and now has lung cancer I want to pay for their treatment"? It's ok for you to pay for one group who made an active choice to smoke their whole life (many who knew the risks), but not ok to pay for somebody who was born with the psyche of one gender and a body of the other to get their body to match their psyche?

It may not be the pc opinion to have, but I don't think that our tax dollars should be paying for this. I know that psychologist study this and think they have it all worked out, it's a perfectly normal thing etc. I disagree, however, and think that gender dyphoria or whatever term you want to use to call it is a mental disease. If they want to pay for it, fine, but our tax dollars shouldn't be what pays for it.

Side rant I don't know how the "T" got in the mix with "LGB", and if I were one of the first three I would not want to be associated with the latter. They are completely different things imo. I think the whole notion of gender fluidity is absurd and if I were LGB and wanted to be taken seriously I wouldn't include the T (since sexual preference is completely different than someone wanting to be a gender that they are not).

You can hold your personal views, and I fully support you holding whatever views you want. However when your views harms others I take issue.

The T part is kind of the odd one out in LGBT. The LG part has made a lot of strides in getting equality, although still not there in the US. The B part gets ostracized from the LG and heterosexual communities (many people don't see how a person could be attracted to both sexes). The T part is the one that really is lacking in progress. They have made some progress, but nothing like the LG side of it has. And they, like bisexuals, get ostracized from both LG and hetero communities.

To me this is too small an issue to get indignant about.

I used to be very wary of the validity of sexual reassignment surgery - to me it seemed like self-mutilation in indulgence of a mental illness, not a legitimate medical therapy. Since that time, though, I got to know and became friends with a female-to-male transsexual (he is actually married to my ex-GF's best friend). It took essentially no time to be convinced that he really is a man, and was one even when he was entirely female in appearance. I don't know how common this kind of gender dysphoria is, but it's a real phenomenon and honestly as long as there is adequate screening prior to any surgery or medical treatments, I have no problem with gender reassignment or being obligated to pay, through Medicare, for the vanishingly small number of Medicare-eligible people who undergo gender reassignment procedures.

:thumbsup:x1000.
 
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