SF Giants sign Benitez

[raystorm]

Originally posted by: Strang

Originally posted by: marcello
Anyways, Sabean is one of the best GM's in baseball, so I'll trust his decision making.

Two words:
Omar Vizquel

Good signing. Hopefully he wont "Roberto Alomar" next season.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: sleepmachine
I was hoping the Giants would try to bring in Pedro as well

That would make them a virtual lock to win the NL West, let alone the NLCS (granted everyone stays healthy)!

 

[oogabooga]

Originally posted by: sleepmachine
I was hoping the Giants would try to bring in Pedro as well

haha i highly doubt THAT would happen.. though it wouldn't be bad...

anyone know what happened to williams? i haven't really been keeping up, but i know he just dissapeared off the fact of the map.

 

[marcello]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
I think letting Worrell go was the biggest mistake Sabean made. Joe Nathan not many people saw him as a closer and in the playoffs for the Giants he was horrible. He surprised a lot of people. It was a good gamble by Minn and it paid off for them. THE BIGGEST mistake the Giants made and several MLB teams made was not going after Vlad. He definitely would have gotten the Giants to the playoffs. and future ones too.

Yeah, but the Giants really don't need hitting right now. It would have been good for after Bonds retires, but we couldn't afford something we didn't need at the present. Last years team hit plenty good, what we needed was more pitching. And about Nathan, yeah he had trouble at the end of the season with the Giants, but it was his first season back after surgery, so you expect him to teeter off at the end.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: marcello
$7 million/year for the best closer on the market, coming off a completely dominant year is overpaying? We paid Rob Nen $9 million last year and he didn't throw one pitch. Anyways, Sabean is one of the best GM's in baseball, so I'll trust his decision making.

Yes, $7 million for a closer of Benitez's ability is slightly overpaying. I would go no more than $6 million. Rob Nen's contract was signed in 2001 and was backloaded. That's why the Giants paid him $9 million/year. Anyways, you don't justify overpaying by saying that you overpaid more at another time.

Sabean is probably one of the most overrated GMs in the game.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: raystorm

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Mets fans are just morons in their hatred towards Benitez. He is a great closer.

You obviously have no clue how Mets fans felt when he botched up all those important games. He couldn't save the first game in the Subway Series, he had problems with the Braves, Phillies..etc. I still remember Pat Burrell pretty much ending the Mets season a few years ago with a huge homer off of Benitez. He had many memorable meltdowns and thats why Mets fans go ballistic on Benitez. We never questioned his stuff....his stuff is fantastic. He is a good closer for most of the season, but when it COUNTED he melted.

He also was a good closer at times when it counted as well. I am a Mets fan, but I realize that Benitez is a good closer. Many Mets fans are idiots and react to everything and anything.

 

[Ranger X]

Sabean = Worst GM Ever. First he overpays for Vizquel, now he overpays for Benitez. Benitez is not in the same league as Gagne, Rivera, Lidge, Nathan, or Wagner.

Benitez was good last year but I highly doubt that he's going to do as well as he did in 2004. Plus, what about middle relief? The Giants still have no one reliable enough for the setup role. Not only that but they still need a hitter to protect Bonds and a starting pitcher or two. The Giants didn't exactly *need* a shortstop (especially an aging one) since they've already signed Devi Cruz.

By the way, someone asked why the Giants traded Nathan earlier and the answer to that is, to get that clubhouse cancer Pierzynski. Now they're thinking about trading him? Talk about stupidity.

 

[777php]

We really need one more bat behind bonds, then it's all over. The Giants have nobody on the lineup that scares anybody besides bonds, get one more bat and an arm, then we're all set.

I'm happy we picked up a closer, last year was an unmitigated disaster.

 

[maddogchen]

Sabean worse GM? overrated? how so?

If you polled baseball fans and asked for the top 5 GMs I bet Sabean wouldn't be in there. I think Sabean is above average. Sabean has made some great finds for real cheap. Brett Tomko he picked up and the guy did real well. He also had hits on Deivi Cruz who was a surprise. So was Marquis Grissom when they first got him. But he has struck out, like many other GMs. thinking Matt Herges would do good, and I still don't like how much money he gave Edgardo Alfonzo. But he ain't THAT bad.

 

[marcello]

Originally posted by: Ranger X
Sabean = Worst GM Ever. First he overpays for Vizquel, now he overpays for Benitez. Benitez is not in the same league as Gagne, Rivera, Lidge, Nathan, or Wagner.

Benitez was good last year but I highly doubt that he's going to do as well as he did in 2004. Plus, what about middle relief? The Giants still have no one reliable enough for the setup role. Not only that but they still need a hitter to protect Bonds and a starting pitcher or two. The Giants didn't exactly *need* a shortstop (especially an aging one) since they've already signed Devi Cruz.

By the way, someone asked why the Giants traded Nathan earlier and the answer to that is, to get that clubhouse cancer Pierzynski. Now they're thinking about trading him? Talk about stupidity.

Are you 3 years old? Sabean is one of the best GM's ever. Look at the Giants since he took over. Look at the biggest fleecing to ever take place: the Jason Schmidt trade. He makes one bad trade for A.J. and you're going to claim he's the worst ever? Let me deconstruct your "points". I put that in quotations because they can hardly be considered that.

The Giants still have no one reliable enough for the setup role
Brower was money last year, Herges hopefully will return to form, they have a bunch of young guys that could step up, and the offseason is just starting so they can sign some players.

Not only that but they still need a hitter to protect Bonds and a starting pitcher or two
Check out how many runs they scored last year compared to other teams. You know what, you probably don't know how to, so I'll let you know: 7th most in the majors, only 15 behind 3rd. And more starting pitching? Well, Schmidt is money, Tomko was lights out after seeing a shrink last year so hopefully he'll keep that up, Williams is going to actually train this offseason so he should return to his rookie form, Lowry has a filthy changeup and will be great. I don't see where we need more starters, do you?

The Giants didn't exactly *need* a shortstop (especially an aging one) since they've already signed Devi Cruz
Cruz had a season he won't have again and can't field to save his life. Vizquel is a great fielder, which we need help with and he's still a solid offensive player.

 

[maddogchen]

ahhh its great talking baseball again. I love offseason, chance to start over, so many possibilities...hope

 

[marcello]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
ahhh its great talking baseball again. I love offseason, chance to start over, so many possibilities...hope

Yup, everyone can be a winner now. Are you a Giants fan, or who?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Ranger X
Sabean = Worst GM Ever. First he overpays for Vizquel, now he overpays for Benitez. Benitez is not in the same league as Gagne, Rivera, Lidge, Nathan, or Wagner.

Benitez was good last year but I highly doubt that he's going to do as well as he did in 2004. Plus, what about middle relief? The Giants still have no one reliable enough for the setup role. Not only that but they still need a hitter to protect Bonds and a starting pitcher or two. The Giants didn't exactly *need* a shortstop (especially an aging one) since they've already signed Devi Cruz.

By the way, someone asked why the Giants traded Nathan earlier and the answer to that is, to get that clubhouse cancer Pierzynski. Now they're thinking about trading him? Talk about stupidity.

Vizquel is a future HOFer (He will probably get 3K hits), so no, that wasn't a bad deal, it was actually a steal. I would take Vizquel over Orlando Cabrera (Red Sox) for 4.X/yr (Cabrera wants 8-10). He is superb defensively, has a good OBP, hits for average, and can steal bases. He is a steal for 4 mil.

 

[marcello]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Ranger X
Sabean = Worst GM Ever. First he overpays for Vizquel, now he overpays for Benitez. Benitez is not in the same league as Gagne, Rivera, Lidge, Nathan, or Wagner.

Benitez was good last year but I highly doubt that he's going to do as well as he did in 2004. Plus, what about middle relief? The Giants still have no one reliable enough for the setup role. Not only that but they still need a hitter to protect Bonds and a starting pitcher or two. The Giants didn't exactly *need* a shortstop (especially an aging one) since they've already signed Devi Cruz.

By the way, someone asked why the Giants traded Nathan earlier and the answer to that is, to get that clubhouse cancer Pierzynski. Now they're thinking about trading him? Talk about stupidity.

Vizquel is a future HOFer (He will probably get 3K hits), so no, that wasn't a bad deal, it was actually a steal. I would take Vizquel over Orlando Cabrera (Red Sox) for 4.X/yr (Cabrera wants 8-10). He is superb defensively, has a good OBP, hits for average, and can steal bases. He is a steal for 4 mil.

And plays SS, that's a huge position. Thank you for the intelligent points

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: marcello

Originally posted by: maddogchen
ahhh its great talking baseball again. I love offseason, chance to start over, so many possibilities...hope

Yup, everyone can be a winner now. Are you a Giants fan, or who?

I like Giants and the A's. didn't grow up in either SF or Oakland so I don't have the animosity some fans have against the other Bay Area team.

 

[raystorm]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Vizquel is a future HOFer (He will probably get 3K hits), so no, that wasn't a bad deal, it was actually a steal. I would take Vizquel over Orlando Cabrera (Red Sox) for 4.X/yr (Cabrera wants 8-10). He is superb defensively, has a good OBP, hits for average, and can steal bases. He is a steal for 4 mil.

Unless he goes "Roberto Alomar" on you. Loved how he was awesome for years and then puts on a Mets uniform and stinks up the joint in one fell swoop. They must be washing the uniforms with water from the East River.

Originally posted by: maddogchen
ahhh its great talking baseball again. I love offseason, chance to start over, so many possibilities...hope

Absolutely! Baseball is my favorite sport followed by..yes.. Hot Stove Baseball!

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: marcello

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Ranger X
Sabean = Worst GM Ever. First he overpays for Vizquel, now he overpays for Benitez. Benitez is not in the same league as Gagne, Rivera, Lidge, Nathan, or Wagner.

Benitez was good last year but I highly doubt that he's going to do as well as he did in 2004. Plus, what about middle relief? The Giants still have no one reliable enough for the setup role. Not only that but they still need a hitter to protect Bonds and a starting pitcher or two. The Giants didn't exactly *need* a shortstop (especially an aging one) since they've already signed Devi Cruz.

By the way, someone asked why the Giants traded Nathan earlier and the answer to that is, to get that clubhouse cancer Pierzynski. Now they're thinking about trading him? Talk about stupidity.

Vizquel is a future HOFer (He will probably get 3K hits), so no, that wasn't a bad deal, it was actually a steal. I would take Vizquel over Orlando Cabrera (Red Sox) for 4.X/yr (Cabrera wants 8-10). He is superb defensively, has a good OBP, hits for average, and can steal bases. He is a steal for 4 mil.

And plays SS, that's a huge position. Thank you for the intelligent points

Yes, Vizquel has around 2150 hits. He would only need to average 150 hits over 6 years (up to age 43, or 6+ years to equal 850 more hits), which is possible if he stays healthy. He had 165 hits last year at age 37, his career high was 191, and he has had 142 or more hits in every full season he's played (11 out of 16 years). Even if he comes close to 3000 hits (2900), in conjunction with his 9 Gold gloves, close to 400 stolen bases (he has 318 now), his .275 career BA (Ozzie Smith's was .262, and Vizquel batted .291 last year), and he's a lock for the Hall as a SS!

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: marcello

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Ranger X
Sabean = Worst GM Ever. First he overpays for Vizquel, now he overpays for Benitez. Benitez is not in the same league as Gagne, Rivera, Lidge, Nathan, or Wagner.

Benitez was good last year but I highly doubt that he's going to do as well as he did in 2004. Plus, what about middle relief? The Giants still have no one reliable enough for the setup role. Not only that but they still need a hitter to protect Bonds and a starting pitcher or two. The Giants didn't exactly *need* a shortstop (especially an aging one) since they've already signed Devi Cruz.

By the way, someone asked why the Giants traded Nathan earlier and the answer to that is, to get that clubhouse cancer Pierzynski. Now they're thinking about trading him? Talk about stupidity.

Vizquel is a future HOFer (He will probably get 3K hits), so no, that wasn't a bad deal, it was actually a steal. I would take Vizquel over Orlando Cabrera (Red Sox) for 4.X/yr (Cabrera wants 8-10). He is superb defensively, has a good OBP, hits for average, and can steal bases. He is a steal for 4 mil.

And plays SS, that's a huge position. Thank you for the intelligent points

Yes, Vizquel has around 2150 hits. He would only need to average 150 hits over 6 years (up to age 43), which is possible if he stays healthy. He had 165 hits last year at age 37, his career high was 191, and he has had 142 or more hits in every full season he's played (11 out of 16 years). Even if he comes close to 3000 hits (2900), in conjunction with his 9 Gold gloves, close to 400 stolen bases (he has 318 now), his .275 career BA (Ozzie Smith's was .262, and Vizquel batted .291 last year), and he's a lock for the Hall as a SS!

The one thing is I'm afraid he might struggle next year because of the change in going from AL to NL. has to get used to the pitchers. But I think he will provide better D at SS which cost the Giants against the Dodgers last season.

 

[PoPPeR]

yes the Giants did score the 7th most runs last season, but do you really that's what that team is normally capable of? If they all had their usual seasons the Giants would've been pathetic. One closer does not make you the NL West winner, not by a long shot. If the season started today, the dodgers would still be the team to beat.

 

[marcello]

Originally posted by: PoPPeR
yes the Giants did score the 7th most runs last season, but do you really that's what that team is normally capable of? If they all had their usual seasons the Giants would've been pathetic. One closer does not make you the NL West winner, not by a long shot. If the season started today, the dodgers would still be the team to beat.

Dodger fan, huh? We blew 28 saves last year, 3rd most in the majors. With a closer like Benitez that could have possibly been halved. Guess where that puts us? 10 games up on the Dodgers last year. You underestimate the value of a closer. It wasn't like any Giants had extraordinary years either, just Bonds and Snow the 2nd half.

 

[maddogchen]

Popper is an Atlanta Brave's fan. Its okay if the dodgers are still the team to beat. Giants seem to always prove those Baseball prediction analysts wrong every year.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: PoPPeR
yes the Giants did score the 7th most runs last season, but do you really that's what that team is normally capable of? If they all had their usual seasons the Giants would've been pathetic. One closer does not make you the NL West winner, not by a long shot. If the season started today, the dodgers would still be the team to beat.

You're forgetting that LA could lose free agents Beltre, Alverez, Nomo, Lima, O.Perez, Mayne, Hundley, and Finley. SF has already picked up options for everyone, and only Burba (who is replaceable) is still a Free agent.

 

[PoPPeR]

Originally posted by: marcello

Originally posted by: PoPPeR
yes the Giants did score the 7th most runs last season, but do you really that's what that team is normally capable of? If they all had their usual seasons the Giants would've been pathetic. One closer does not make you the NL West winner, not by a long shot. If the season started today, the dodgers would still be the team to beat.

Dodger fan, huh? We blew 28 saves last year, 3rd most in the majors. With a closer like Benitez that could have possibly been halved. Guess where that puts us? 10 games up on the Dodgers last year. You underestimate the value of a closer. It wasn't like any Giants had extraordinary years either, just Bonds and Snow the 2nd half.

Possibly... but maybe not. Once again, he's not a pressure pitcher. You underestimate the psychological aspect of closing. He could've easily have been even worse then Herges and whatever the other guys name was. And i'm not a dodgers fan, I'm a baseball fan. You can't just look at the stats and say, well we'll just pretend everything else stays the same and the blown saves are cut in half. Maybe the Giants offense scored so many runs because they felt like they had to. Maybe with Benitez in there, the Giants have a different mentality and don't score as many runs as they did. Maybe some of the really tough saves that the Giants converted wouldn't of been saved by Benitez.

But enough of that, there's a long journey before the season even starts.

 

[Ranger X]

Originally posted by: marcello
The Giants still have no one reliable enough for the setup role
Brower was money last year, Herges hopefully will return to form, they have a bunch of young guys that could step up, and the offseason is just starting so they can sign some players.

Not only that but they still need a hitter to protect Bonds and a starting pitcher or two
Check out how many runs they scored last year compared to other teams. You know what, you probably don't know how to, so I'll let you know: 7th most in the majors, only 15 behind 3rd. And more starting pitching? Well, Schmidt is money, Tomko was lights out after seeing a shrink last year so hopefully he'll keep that up, Williams is going to actually train this offseason so he should return to his rookie form, Lowry has a filthy changeup and will be great. I don't see where we need more starters, do you?

The Giants didn't exactly *need* a shortstop (especially an aging one) since they've already signed Devi Cruz
Cruz had a season he won't have again and can't field to save his life. Vizquel is a great fielder, which we need help with and he's still a solid offensive player.

And are you just an incompetent tool? Of course you are because you're blinded by the fact that the Giants are YOUR team. :disgust: You are in such deep denial that I find your comments amusing. I bet you also think Bonds didn't take steroids, huh?

I admit that Brower was a good RP but since when did one good RP make up the entire bullpen? Let me remind you that the Giants traded away Felix Rodriguez, who was also a decent RP. That leaves you with Eyre, Herges, Hermanson, and those chumps called up from the minor league. The Giants didn't lose every nail biter in the ninth because they didn't have a bona fide closer. Their middle relief had a lot to do with many of those close games. Look at the '04 Cardinals bullpen and you'll know what a good bullpen is like.

You have Schmidt, Tomko, Lowry, and Rueter. Jerome Williams should be long relief and maybe a spot starter. If I recall correctly, wasn't Hennessy spot starting for the Giants last year? If the Giants have a full SP staff, why did they need to spot start a rookie who was called up from the minor league? The Giants need a quality starter. Who said anything about them needing more starters? If they want "more starters", they can call up another chump from the minor league. Anyway, since what I say won't penetrate through your thick skull, I won't try to explain it any further.

Devi Cruz had a fielding percentage of .980 in 104 games. Omar Vizquel had a fielding percentage of .982 in 147 games. Exactly how is Devi Cruz's defense THAT much inferior to Vizquel's defense? You make it sound like Devi Cruz fields like Alfonso Soriano. I suggest you try researching before you decide to compare one as being far more superior over the either. And I take the Sabean comment back. Kevin Malone was the worst GM ever but that doesn't exactly make Sabean any better.

 

[marcello]

Deconstruction #2:

The offseason JUST STARTED. WE CAN STILL SIGN FREE AGENT RELIEF PITCHERS. We also have devoted most of our drafts towards pitching, so some young guys can come up.

Schmidt, Tomko, Williams, Lowry are 4 of our starters; set in stone pretty much already. 5th starter can be fought out for by rookies or maybe adding a cheap veteran; maybe Foppert will be back from Tommy John. Woody should go to the pen, or to the country farm and put out of his misery. Williams is money, he just gained weight last offseason and came back in crappy shape. You ask why Hennesy was spot starting.....hmm, why would he be doing that????? Oh, injuries. That's right. You said, "The Giants need a quality starter. Who said anything about them needing more starters? If they want "more starters", they can call up another chump from the minor league." Like you just decide to add a couple of quality starters. I can see you as a GM: "Hmm, you know what we need this year.....quality starters!" No sh|t, genius, here's a raise.

Ok, Vizquel vs. Cruz. First off, any idiot knows fielding percentage is a vastly overrated stat. It doesn't penalize players who can't even get to a ball, whereas someone who has a better jump/range/speed and gets to the ball, but can't make a play, does get penalized. Second, good luck finding anyone who says that Vizquel isn't a huge improvement over Cruz, in every way.

I'm done with you, leave this topic until you have some understanding of baseball and your balls drop.