Shaq: Is he in top 5 greatest centers of all time? *POLL*

[tec699]

Originally posted by: fastz28
Didn't Hakeem owned Shaq in Houston's sweep of Miami in the Championship?

Yea, but Shaq was only a pro for 2-3 years. Maybe even less. He had a lot of learning, growing up to do, etc... But he has carried the Lakers to 3 championships. He will go down as the greatest center to ever play the game.

 

[Flatline]

That should remain Wilt Chamberlain; the man was a freak of nature.

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: fastz28
Didn't Hakeem owned Shaq in Houston's sweep of Miami in the Championship?

live and learn.

of course shaq is one of the best of all time. the name of the game is to put the ball in the hoop. he's also an immediate double team for the opponent, so he totally changes the game. his size has so much to do with it, but thats life, Wilts size at the time had a helluva lot to do with his success too (granted wilt was more skilled.)

 

[iamme]

The only way Shaq will become the best ever, is if he ends his career matching or surpassing:

the longevity/effectiveness of Kareem,

the number of championships as Russell,

or the statistical dominance of Wilt.

Until then he'll only be 3rd, IMO.

 

[Flatline]

Yeah, Wilt scored close to 50 points a game one season...imagine scoring 45 and having your average go down!
He also led the league in other seasons in blocked shots, rebounding, and one season even assists

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: tec699

Originally posted by: fastz28
Didn't Hakeem owned Shaq in Houston's sweep of Miami in the Championship?

Yea, but Shaq was only a pro for 2-3 years. Maybe even less. He had a lot of learning, growing up to do, etc... But he has carried the Lakers to 3 championships. He will go down as the greatest center to ever play the game.

Russell and Wilt were in another league compared to Shaq. IMO they would've made shaq look like a child in their primes.

 

[NeoV]

I would even put Shaq at #4, and Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing/Malone/Mikan/Walton/Sabonis (counting international play) in the next group. Walton was easily the most skilled big man of all time, his UCLA years were simply amazing..but he couldn't stay healthy. Sabonis was a bigger version of Walton, but since he played in Europe, NBA fans never saw him with healthly legs.

Wilt relied on physical superiority at least as much as Shaq does now.

Duncan isn't really a center (though clearly a great player), and he isn't much of a free-throw shooter either...

A quadruple double is only one game. Alvin Robertson had one once, big deal.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: NeoV
I would even put Shaq at #4, and Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing/Malone/Mikan/Walton/Sabonis (counting international play) in the next group. Walton was easily the most skilled big man of all time, his UCLA years were simply amazing..but he couldn't stay healthy. Sabonis was a bigger version of Walton, but since he played in Europe, NBA fans never saw him with healthly legs.

Wilt relied on physical superiority at least as much as Shaq does now.

Duncan isn't really a center (though clearly a great player), and he isn't much of a free-throw shooter either...

A quadruple double is only one game. Alvin Robertson had one once, big deal.

Hakeem is probably "greater" than Shaq overall IMO because he could do more things than Shaq, such as pass the ball/steal it/shoot free throws/hit the turnaround jumper/hook. Not to mention some impressive stats:

-first player in NBA history to get 200 steals and 200 blocks in the same season (1988-89 season). EDIT: To put this into perspective, Shaq had 159 blocks and 38 steals this season.
-NBA all-time leader in blocked shots
-only player to rank in the top 10 in points, rebounds, steals and blocks.
-two-time NBA champion with the Rockets
-inventor of the "Dream Shake."
-8th on the all time scoring list

Not to mention his total ownage of Shaq in the postseason when Shaq was on Orlando. Yes, Shaq was in his early years, but Shaq was still avrging better numbers (pts/boards) than he has in the past couple of years!

 

[ddwbi0]

Originally posted by: fastz28
Didn't Hakeem owned Shaq in Houston's sweep of Miami in the Championship?

wasnt it houston v orlando...not miami

 

[biffbacon]

bill cartwright

 

[Parrotheader]

Originally posted by: iamme
Top 5?

Yeah.

Greatest?

No. (someone started a "Shaq is the best center of all time" thread a while back)

That's pretty much my opinion too. Shaq isn't as skilled as the other all-time greats, but because he's such an athletic guy at his bulky size he's simply able to overpower pretty much anyone on the court. Watching him play sometimes reminds me of the big kid who was always a year older than other kids playing in peewee basketball leagues, but was able to play in a lower age bracket through some loophole and would simply dominate due to his size. If Shaq sheds a lot of weight like he's been saying he's going to do it'll be interesting to see the results. Whereas it might help him move a little faster, improve other aspects of his game and increase his stamina (not only in a single game, but possibly give him a longer career due to less pounding from all the bulk) it might also take away his physical edge. Losing about 30 pounds would at least put him in the same size ballpark as more physically fit players like Duncan or Malone whom are both better-rounded players IMO, although neither are necessarily true centers. Still, it's entertaining to watch Shaq play and he is one of the greatest of all time.

 

[Nitemare]

Magic Johnson - averaged 42 points 15 rebounds and 7 assists as a center in his rookie year

 

[josphII]

you cant compare wilt and russel to players of the modern era, the game is just too different. and russel, for example, was like what? 6' 8"?? russel was the most successful center of all time, no question. he won what 8 rings? however shaq is the most dominant player in the most dominant era ever in basketball history and that makes him the best center of all time. as a matter of fact the only other player in modern nba history that you could even argue that has dominated as much as shaq has over the past few years is jordan. to say that hakeem is better is just ridiculous. he had two very good years with two very good rocket teams but other than that he wasnt any better than ewing, david robinson, malone, and a slew of other players. but with shaq there is simply no question. he hasnt just separated himself from all other centers, he has separated himself from all other players. 3 titles, 3 finals mvp's. shaq was part of the most successful playoff run in nba history, with the lakers going 15-1 two years ago, and was part of one of the most successful regular seasons ever, winning 69 games in '00. his comming one vote shy of being the first ever unanimous mvp speaks for itself. there is shaq, and there is the rest. maybe with the exception of jordan, never before in nba history has it been so obvious as to who the best player is. and if you truely dont beleive that shaq is the best center of all time then go back and re-watch the 2001 finals, his play speaks for itself.

 

[SUOrangeman]

The thing about Shaq is that his sheer size (and the way he uses it) has changed the way the game of basketball is played. Everyone from the referees to second-string waterboy has had to alter their approach to basketball. Sure, it's easy to be lazy and call a foul every time Shaq posts up. But, sometimes, all he does is turn around.

Some players have simply caused the rules of the game to change. At one point in time, there were no dunks. I think it is Mr. Russell who is repsonsible for what we now call "basket interference." Is it safe to say that Shaq is the real reason behind the three-foor semi-circle?

Players that have that kind of impact on the game are among the greatest ever.

-SUO

 

[spanky]

i disagree with those ppl who say shaq has no skill. he's actually very skilled (but not in FT shooting). for a guy his size, he's pretty friggin quick and agile. but his primary strength is his power game. if u say shaq isn't skilled, u need to watch him play more. i'm not a huge fan of shaq, but i do have respect for his skills.

 

[NeoV]

not trying to nitpick, but the Lakers were hardly part of the most successful run in NBA playoff history, and I'm not sure how right now is "the most dominant era of basketball".


Let's give Shaq some credit too, his game has clearly improved from his early years, and he is a good passer.

 

[spanky]

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Aboroth
I would replace him with David Robinson. He has done a lot more stuff in his career, such as being one of the few people to get a quadruple double.

Duncan will be better. He has an insane work ethic

yup, barring any major injuries i see Duncan quickly climbing the ranks as an elite center.

u guys know duncan doesn't play center right? even tho i think they should, the play him a pf. also, i think if he played center full time, he wouldn't be mvp.

 

[Parrotheader]

Originally posted by: spanky
i disagree with those ppl who say shaq has no skill. he's actually very skilled (but not in FT shooting). for a guy his size, he's pretty friggin quick and agile. but his primary strength is his power game. if u say shaq isn't skilled, u need to watch him play more. i'm not a huge fan of shaq, but i do have respect for his skills.

I can't speak for others, but when I say he's 'not as skilled as the others' I meant more from a mechanics and versatility standpoint. Yes, there's no doubt he's tremendously gifted athletically, but that's not the same thing as skilled IMO. He has gotten better with his shooting though and is obviously a great postup/turnaround player. When I say 'skilled' I mean someone like Duncan or Noitzki who can also do the postup/turnarounds like Shaq, but who also are good shooters, good passer (although Shaq's improved here as well), better ball handlers, etc.

 

[Parrotheader]

Originally posted by: spanky

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Aboroth
I would replace him with David Robinson. He has done a lot more stuff in his career, such as being one of the few people to get a quadruple double.

Duncan will be better. He has an insane work ethic

yup, barring any major injuries i see Duncan quickly climbing the ranks as an elite center.

u guys know duncan doesn't play center right? even tho i think they should, the play him a pf. also, i think if he played center full time, he wouldn't be mvp.

I think Duncan could be an MVP at center. He just definitely doesn't need to be the sole load carrier down in the post since he's not as dominating a physical presence like Shaq is. Duncan would need a strong rebounding/defensive power forward with decent shooting skills in order to be an MVP center IMO.

 

[mpitts]

Originally posted by: m2kewl
where's Dr J - i seen his highlight reels and the guy's awesome.

He was a forward.

 

[spanky]

Originally posted by: Parrotheader

Originally posted by: spanky
i disagree with those ppl who say shaq has no skill. he's actually very skilled (but not in FT shooting). for a guy his size, he's pretty friggin quick and agile. but his primary strength is his power game. if u say shaq isn't skilled, u need to watch him play more. i'm not a huge fan of shaq, but i do have respect for his skills.

I can't speak for others, but when I say he's 'not as skilled as the others' I meant more from a mechanics and versatility standpoint. Yes, there's no doubt he's tremendously gifted athletically, but that's not the same thing as skilled IMO. He has gotten better with his shooting though and is obviously a great postup/turnaround player. When I say 'skilled' I mean someone like Duncan or Noitzki who can also do the postup/turnarounds like Shaq, but who also are good shooters, good passer (although Shaq's improved here as well), better ball handlers, etc.

i see what u're saying. td and dirk have their strengths, and so does shaq. depending on match up's, they will use whatever skill they have that is to their advantage. like for example, if td has shaq playing him, he's not gonna post. he'll probably take him outside and either drain a jumper in his face, or beat him off the dribble. but if duncan has someone like... say kenyon martin or robert horry on him... he's gonna turn around and back dat ass up & bull his way to the rim. as for shaq, pretty much everyone in the nba is smaller and less powerful then him. but if the situation arose and he played a bigger, less fleet footed player, i am confident that shaq would have no problem facing him and beating him off the dribble. i would definitely agree with u in that shaq is not as well arounded as duncan, ewing, robinson, or hakeem, but he's by no means a slouch. the guy is obviously powerful, but also very skilled.

 

[Crappopotamus]

of course. i hate it when people think shaq is good only because of his size. if you were that big, you probably wouldnt be able to tie your own goddamn shoes let alone hit a free throw. the man is 7 foot something and 300 pounds. to be that massive and still be able to hit shots and stuff is incredible.

whoever is the best now is the best ever imo. the game is constantly changing. you cant compare the game wilt and those boys played with todays game. everyone is stronger and more athletic. defensive strategies are better. shaq would shut some of those guys down.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: josphII
you cant compare wilt and russel to players of the modern era, the game is just too different. and russel, for example, was like what? 6' 8"?? russel was the most successful center of all time, no question. he won what 8 rings? however shaq is the most dominant player in the most dominant era ever in basketball history and that makes him the best center of all time. as a matter of fact the only other player in modern nba history that you could even argue that has dominated as much as shaq has over the past few years is jordan. to say that hakeem is better is just ridiculous. he had two very good years with two very good rocket teams but other than that he wasnt any better than ewing, david robinson, malone, and a slew of other players. but with shaq there is simply no question. he hasnt just separated himself from all other centers, he has separated himself from all other players. 3 titles, 3 finals mvp's. shaq was part of the most successful playoff run in nba history, with the lakers going 15-1 two years ago, and was part of one of the most successful regular seasons ever, winning 69 games in '00. his comming one vote shy of being the first ever unanimous mvp speaks for itself. there is shaq, and there is the rest. maybe with the exception of jordan, never before in nba history has it been so obvious as to who the best player is. and if you truely dont beleive that shaq is the best center of all time then go back and re-watch the 2001 finals, his play speaks for itself.

Time to bust out the whooping stick on u again!

Bill Russell won TEN championships. Not 8, maybe you should read up a little on your history before imposing your uninformed opinion on everyone. If Shaq was the most dominant center in history, wouldn't the Lakers have won this year? Didn't MJ (the most dominant player in the most dominant era ever in basketball history - btw to call this the most dominant era is absurd) throw a WHOLE TEAM on his back and win SIX? Shaq had Kobe, so no excuses... All I saw this year was Shaq bricking Free throws and getting the ball put back in his face by a POWER FORWARD (TD). Lmao!!!!

"to say that hakeem is better is just ridiculous." You're joking right? Ok, let's play the awards game. Hakeem was NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 1992-93 and 1993-94. Has Shaq ever done that? Nope. Hakeem: Named to the All-NBA First Team six times (1986-87 to 1988-99, 1992-93, 1993-94, 1996-97). Shaq: 3... Hakeem: Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team five times (1986-87, 1987-88, 1989-90, 1992-93, 1993-94) and the All-Defensive Second Team four times (1984-85, 1990-91, 1995-96, 1996-97). Shaq:Two-time NBA All-Defensive Second Team selection (1999-2000, 2000-01)... Hakeem: Led the NBA in blocked shots twice (1989-90, 1992-93) and in rebounds twice (1988-89, 1989-90). Shaq:Never in either. To his credit, he did win scoring title twice. Hakeem: Became the first player in NBA history to accumulate both 2,000 blocks and 2,000 steals with a steal against Seattle on 11/20/99. Shaq will never come close to this feat. Hakeem: Shares the NBA Playoffs record for most blocks in a game with 10 against the L.A. Lakers in Game 2 of the 1990 Western Conference first round. Shaq: Never reached 10 blocks in a game. Hakeem: Recorded the third quadruple-double in NBA history, with 18 points, 16 rebounds, 11 blocked shots and 10 assists, against the Milwaukee Bucks on 3/29/90. Shaq: Will probably never do this. Hakeem: Shares the NBA Finals record for most blocks in a game with 8 against the Boston Celtics in Game 5 of the 1986 NBA Finals. Shaq: Has never done this. Hakeem: Is the NBA s all-time leader with 3,830 career blocked shots. Shaq: Will never beat this, he has 1,936 after 11 season. Hakeem played 18, u can do the math.
Hakeem: 14 career TRIPLE DOUBLES. Shaq: Couldn't find this stat, guarantee you it's 3 or less!!

Let's play the stats game now, not feats and awards:

Shaq is a career 54% FT shooter. Hakeem is 71% FT. Shaq will never ever reach 200 steals and 200 blocks in a season. The most steals Shaq ever had was 76. The most blocks he ever had was 286. Hakeem has seasons of 376, 342, and 304 blocks. He's had seasons of 213, 174, and 162 steals. In other words, Hakeem is clearly superior defensively!! We remember Shaq clearly getting owned as a rookie by the Dream in the Finals!!

Bottom line: Would you rather have a center whose career scoring avg is 27.5 and 12 and shoots 54%FT with NO DEFENSE? Or would you have a center who puts up 22 and 11, a 71%FT shooter, and is a brick wall on defense (all time shot blocker)?? Let me repeat: Hakeem was NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 1992-93 and 1993-94. Has Shaq ever done that? Nope. Hakeem: Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team five times (1986-87, 1987-88, 1989-90, 1992-93, 1993-94) and the All-Defensive Second Team four times (1984-85, 1990-91, 1995-96, 1996-97). Shaq:Two-time NBA All-Defensive Second Team selection (1999-2000, 2000-01).

Change your opinion yet?

 

[TheNinja]

He is a top 10 for sure...but not a top 5 yet, and I'll tell you why. First of all I will say that I do not like Shaq but that right now he is the most dominent player in the game when healthy. When you play the Lakers you change your whole defense b/c of this huge mountain of a man. However, he is not one of the greatest b/c he hasn't been that great for that long. Think of his days with the Magic he wasn't great at all. He finally become great when he got even bigger than he was before and the rest of the leauges centers were either old or not good. And I don't know how much longer his body can handle moving that 370+ pounds around the court. If he plays like he has the past 4 years for another 4-5 then yes he should be considered, but if not, then no way, I say Admiral gets ahead of him.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Staley8
He is a top 10 for sure...but not a top 5 yet, and I'll tell you why. First of all I will say that I do not like Shaq but that right now he is the most dominent player in the game when healthy. When you play the Lakers you change your whole defense b/c of this huge mountain of a man. However, he is not one of the greatest b/c he hasn't been that great for that long. Think of his days with the Magic he wasn't great at all. He finally become great when he got even bigger than he was before and the rest of the leauges centers were either old or not good. And I don't know how much longer his body can handle moving that 370+ pounds around the court. If he plays like he has the past 4 years for another 4-5 then yes he should be considered, but if not, then no way, I say Admiral gets ahead of him.

In his 2nd and 3rd year, he averaged well above his career scoring average and close to his rebounding avg. I wouldn't call him great, but he was a force even in his younger years. I would say he was excessively dominant just by pure athleticism. Now he's a better all around player with championships under his belt so that makes him great. Athletically, he might have lost a step but he's improved his post moves and learned how to somewhat pass so that also makes him "great" when compared to his younger years of brute force and quickness.

Yeah if he can maintain his pace and win a couple more championships in the next 4 years then he will solidify his spot "one of the greatest" unanimously...