Shaq: Is he in top 5 greatest centers of all time? *POLL*

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Dr Smooth

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
I think he just makes it:

1)Wilt
2)Bill Russell
3)Kareem
4)Hakeem
5)Shaq

Arguments could be made for Ewing, I've even heard Robert Parish maybe. Anyone I'm missing?

How many championships does Shaq et al have?

Shaq has 3. Wilt has 2, Hakeem has 2, Kareem 6.

EDIT: Robert Parish has 3, and now I'm hearing from a buddy that BILL RUSSELL HAS ELEVEN, NOT TEN RINGS!! OMG!

 

[wyvrn]

Yeah I thought that argument was lame also. I would take Hakeem over Shaq because he is the better two way player, and because Hakeem totally owned Shaq in the finals (when I was rooting for Shaq).

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: josphII

oh my your argument is so amazingly pathetic. firstly i didnt say russel won 8, i said he won "8?" big difference there. the reason the lakers didnt win the championchip last year was because shaq was out of shape, big deal. where was duncan each of the three previous seasons??? thats right - getting dunked on! good god your statistical argument is such a stretch! so shaq wont ever get 200 steals in a season, so? shaq must have been doing something right to win 69 games 4 years ago. how many games did hakeem's 200 steals win for the rockets? and your defensive argument is flawed. shaq doesnt gaurd the opposing teams best low post player for fear of getting into foul trouble so he doesnt even have an opportunity to make the all defensive team. shaq is way too valuable offensively to spend time on the bench because of foul trouble, and if you notice he often gets matched up with the opposing teams best big man near the end of games - one reason why the lakers always outscore their opponents in the last 5 min or so. if shaq wasnt so dominant on offense he could spend more time worrying about defense. but to say that shaq has no defenise just shows how AMAZINGLY ignorant you are. and to imply that you would rather have hakeem in the middle and not shaq is just plain astonishing. and if you do want to talk statistics shaq averages almost 6 more ppg for his career and more rebounds (off and def) and assists - the three most influential statistical categories when it comes to winning games. and probably the most telling stat: hakeem has a mere 2 titles in 18 nba seasons while shaq has 3 titles in 11 nba seasons (with more to come i might add). oh and one more thing. shaq is so dominant that the league had to change the rules to give other teams more of a chance. thats right im talking about the zone defense rule.

but the real question to your original thread is how does one define greatness?? shaq is clearly the most dominant center ever, no question about it, but does that make him the greatest?

Shaq was out of shape?? Are u seriously kidding me, that you're going to use that excuse... THE GREAT ONES ARE NEVER OUT OF SHAPE. If I recall, TD has blocked Shaq NUMEROUS times. Shaq can't just bully TD like he can everyone else, which is why I don't think Shaq is great. He can't even out muscle a power forward, wtf, lol... Give Hakeem Kobe, and his 200 steals would win the championship EVERY YEAR, ask anyone on here!! Who else did Hakeem have for the majority of his career? Vernon Maxwell?

Shaq doesn't play defense b/c he's too busy on offense?? WTF is this BS??? lmao... so all of sudden, he doesn't have to play half of the game anymore b/c he's that special? RIIIIIIGHT. Dude that's the weakest comeback I've ever heard.

Shaq averages OFFICIALLY: About 6 more points, 1 more rebound, and 0.3 MORE ASSISTS. If u want to say he has more assists, fine, but people are laughing at you right now, seriously. Changed the rules of the game???? UHHHHH can you give me some PROOF of that (link please)? Omg u just keep talking out of your rectum! Ask anyone on here if u got owned...

 

[przero]

SP33Demon - "Who would replace him in the #5 slot then?"


Chief!! That's who!

 

[przero]

And Russell owned Wilt!

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: przero
SP33Demon - "Who would replace him in the #5 slot then?"


Chief!! That's who!

Lol, well, maybe if he gave me a hit of that sticky icky j/k j/k lol! I would consider the Admiral, haven't checked out his stats yet. But all in all, Shaq does deserve the number 5 slot IMO if he wins one or two more championships. Time is tickin', and Yao is getting bigger and heavier as we speak

 

[josphII]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: josphII

oh my your argument is so amazingly pathetic. firstly i didnt say russel won 8, i said he won "8?" big difference there. the reason the lakers didnt win the championchip last year was because shaq was out of shape, big deal. where was duncan each of the three previous seasons??? thats right - getting dunked on! good god your statistical argument is such a stretch! so shaq wont ever get 200 steals in a season, so? shaq must have been doing something right to win 69 games 4 years ago. how many games did hakeem's 200 steals win for the rockets? and your defensive argument is flawed. shaq doesnt gaurd the opposing teams best low post player for fear of getting into foul trouble so he doesnt even have an opportunity to make the all defensive team. shaq is way too valuable offensively to spend time on the bench because of foul trouble, and if you notice he often gets matched up with the opposing teams best big man near the end of games - one reason why the lakers always outscore their opponents in the last 5 min or so. if shaq wasnt so dominant on offense he could spend more time worrying about defense. but to say that shaq has no defenise just shows how AMAZINGLY ignorant you are. and to imply that you would rather have hakeem in the middle and not shaq is just plain astonishing. and if you do want to talk statistics shaq averages almost 6 more ppg for his career and more rebounds (off and def) and assists - the three most influential statistical categories when it comes to winning games. and probably the most telling stat: hakeem has a mere 2 titles in 18 nba seasons while shaq has 3 titles in 11 nba seasons (with more to come i might add). oh and one more thing. shaq is so dominant that the league had to change the rules to give other teams more of a chance. thats right im talking about the zone defense rule.

but the real question to your original thread is how does one define greatness?? shaq is clearly the most dominant center ever, no question about it, but does that make him the greatest?

Shaq was out of shape?? Are u seriously kidding me, that you're going to use that excuse... THE GREAT ONES ARE NEVER OUT OF SHAPE. If I recall, TD has blocked Shaq NUMEROUS times. Shaq can't just bully TD like he can everyone else, which is why I don't think Shaq is great. He can't even out muscle a power forward, wtf, lol... Give Hakeem Kobe, and his 200 steals would win the championship EVERY YEAR, ask anyone on here!! Who else did Hakeem have for the majority of his career? Vernon Maxwell?

Shaq doesn't play defense b/c he's too busy on offense?? WTF is this BS??? lmao... so all of sudden, he doesn't have to play half of the game anymore b/c he's that special? RIIIIIIGHT. Dude that's the weakest comeback I've ever heard.

Shaq averages OFFICIALLY: About 6 more points, 1 more rebound, and 0.3 MORE ASSISTS. If u want to say he has more assists, fine, but people are laughing at you right now, seriously. Changed the rules of the game???? UHHHHH can you give me some PROOF of that (link please)? Omg u just keep talking out of your rectum! Ask anyone on here if u got owned...

your knowledge of basketball is astonishing. you say shaq cant bully tim duncan??? what are you smoking?? rewatch the lakers vs spurs wcf series of 3 years ago (or any other lakers vs spurs game that didnt take place last year). shaq dunks over duncan like duncan is a little school girl. shaq was out of shape last season, that was obvious. do you even know that shaq had surgury like 1 week before training camp last year and missed 20 games while he recovered?

fyi - vernon maxwell was one of the greatest 3pt shooters of his generation. and what about when hakeem had scottie pipen AND charles barkely on his team? thats right didnt win shlt. but anyways so now your making excuses for hakeem? lol.

if you knew anything about basketball you'd know that if you have a shaq, or a tim duncan type player you cant match them up against a great low post player. there is just too much contact down low and too much of a risk of foul trouble. for example when the spurs play the lakers does tim duncan gaurd shaq? no. does shaq gaurd tim duncan? no. what about when the lakers play the kings? does webber gaurd shaq or visa versa? no. and most teams, regardless of who shaq gaurds, will place their big man out about 18-20ft from the basket simply to draw shaq out of the middle because he is such a force. no other player in the league demands that much attention on defense! id also like to point out that one of the flaws of the lakers prior to phil jackson arriving was their lack of defense. and since phil jackson has arrived its obvious to anybody that follows basketball that the lakers, with the exception of last year, are the best defensive team in the league - lead by shaq oneal! and it was their lock down defense that pushed the lakers over the top and lead to three titles. just look at their championchip seasons they are ranked #1 in opp field goal percentage each year (or very close to that). and just to further push this point of how good shaq is on defense the only difference between the lakers of last year and the lakers of the three previous years was shaq being out of shape. for the most part all other things were held constant. the lakers were dead last in opp field goal percentage and 3pt percentage last year. in other words a healthy and in shape shaq transforms a team from worst to best! has the presence, or lack thereof, hakeem ever had such an impact on a team? umm no.

well at least you admit to shaq averaging more points, rebounds and assists but then again its pretty hard to argue with numbers.

so people are laughing at me? i got owned?? kid, its time for you to grow up.

 

[wyvrn]

fyi - vernon maxwell was one of the greatest 3pt shooters of his generation. and what about when hakeem had scottie pipen AND charles barkely on his team? thats right didnt win shlt. but anyways so now your making excuses for hakeem? lol.

If I remember correctly, both Barkley and Hakeem were on the downsides of their career. Neither was that effective, and Scotty Pippen without MJ is not the same Scottie Pippen. That team didn't impress me at all and it's no wonder they didn't do anything.

 

[josphII]

SP33Demon, are you actually saying that the defensive rule changes werent in response to shaq's domminance?? do you even follow basketball? link look at the picture and read the caption or read the first sentence of this article

 

[Chess]

Your a moron josphII..... you are a laker fan and on shaq jock obviously, simply because Hakeem in his prime blows shaq out of the water. I am sorry to say that but, just because of the rule change, doesnt mean it was because of shaq, there are several players that get double teamed on a nighly basics, duncan,shaq,kobe,garnett,MJ,iverson,webber, Need I go on?? Those rules are changed for reasons, just not because shaq is a "god". Please get off the lakers jock and know more besides they are so OVER RATED! need i to explain this to you more indepth, because I am willing too, Also please dont use the excuse of them being injured as one too!

 

[Lifer]

josphII - sorry, you can't compare a trio of barkley, hakeem and pippen (most overrated 50 best nba player) all on the twilight of their careers to a young kobe and shaq in their prime.

if you want to throw hakeem and shaq 1v1 in the prime of their careers, with FAIR OFFICIATING, shaq would get owned worse than you in this thread right now.

 

[Chess]

Originally posted by: wyvrn

fyi - vernon maxwell was one of the greatest 3pt shooters of his generation. and what about when hakeem had scottie pipen AND charles barkely on his team? thats right didnt win shlt. but anyways so now your making excuses for hakeem? lol.

If I remember correctly, both Barkley and Hakeem were on the downsides of their career. Neither was that effective, and Scotty Pippen without MJ is not the same Scottie Pippen. That team didn't impress me at all and it's no wonder they didn't do anything.

Pippen isnt the same without MJ, even though he was a good player and still is with portland, he is the goto man that dishes scored, boards etc.... Barkley and Hakeem are both old and slow but barkley had unreal moves when he was with the sixers and suns ...Comparing Hakeem to Shaq in there primes you cant because there is no Comparison! period!

 

[Chess]

if you want to throw hakeem and shaq 1v1 in the prime of their careers, with FAIR OFFICIATING, shaq would get owned worse than you in this thread right now.

bah hahaha....good one Lifer...

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: josphII
SP33Demon, are you actually saying that the defensive rule changes werent in response to shaq's domminance?? do you even follow basketball? link look at the picture and read the caption or read the first sentence of this article

Obviously, you didn't read the second line of your second link. To quote: "Well, Mutombo ended up averaging a career low in blocks per game. O'Neal not only still dominated everyone, but got his teammates easier shots when the zone was mistakenly slapped on the Los Angeles Lakers. And instead of constantly seeing a college-like 2-3 or 1-2-2 defense, the zone showed up in the NBA about as often as Christina Aguilera is pictured fully clothed."

They're implying that the zone was hardly used, and O'Neal still dominated. So what's your point? Nowhere in that article does it say that the zone was officially implemented b/c of Shaq, the author is just using it as an example and proving that it didn't do squat... So what if u, or some sports writers, THOUGHT the zone was implemented b/c of Shaq or Zo or whoever. It was a new thing in the NBA and they were hoping it would increase interest in the game IMO.

Your article even states why the zone was implemented by the NBA: "The NBA implemented the rule prior to the 2001-02 season in order to open up the game and make it more free flowing. The league wanted to do away with Allen Iverson and Cuttino Mobley dribbling for 10 minutes before making a move. It was designed to add better spacing and, most importantly, more scoring.."

Thanks, but try again.

 

[Chess]

josphII: you need to just admit your wrong so we can end this threat!

 

[dud]

You have GOT to be kidding! Shaq is a jack ass and has as much class as a festering ball of dog snot. You insult every over "quality" player on that list by including him. What are you a Lakers fan? I could go on for hours ... of course, I live in Orlando.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
I think he just makes it:

1)Wilt
2)Bill Russell
3)Kareem
4)Hakeem
5)Shaq

Arguments could be made for Ewing, I've even heard Robert Parish maybe. Anyone I'm missing?

Personally, I would rank Kareem ahead of Bill Russell based on longevity and the ability of him to evolve his game with age. So my ranking would be Wilt, Kareem, Bill Russell, Hakeem and then Shaq. BTW, I hate the Lakers but give them credit.

"Chief" (Parrish) is another HOF player with a long career. But his skills decreased more with age than those of Kareem. Arguments could also be made for Artis Gilmore, had he not played so long in the ABA. Moses Malone had a nice long career and was a factor for Philly in the early 80s when they won the title.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: josphII


your knowledge of basketball is astonishing. you say shaq cant bully tim duncan??? what are you smoking?? rewatch the lakers vs spurs wcf series of 3 years ago (or any other lakers vs spurs game that didnt take place last year). shaq dunks over duncan like duncan is a little school girl. shaq was out of shape last season, that was obvious. do you even know that shaq had surgury like 1 week before training camp last year and missed 20 games while he recovered?

fyi - vernon maxwell was one of the greatest 3pt shooters of his generation. and what about when hakeem had scottie pipen AND charles barkely on his team? thats right didnt win shlt. but anyways so now your making excuses for hakeem? lol.

if you knew anything about basketball you'd know that if you have a shaq, or a tim duncan type player you cant match them up against a great low post player. there is just too much contact down low and too much of a risk of foul trouble. for example when the spurs play the lakers does tim duncan gaurd shaq? no. does shaq gaurd tim duncan? no. what about when the lakers play the kings? does webber gaurd shaq or visa versa? no. and most teams, regardless of who shaq gaurds, will place their big man out about 18-20ft from the basket simply to draw shaq out of the middle because he is such a force. no other player in the league demands that much attention on defense! id also like to point out that one of the flaws of the lakers prior to phil jackson arriving was their lack of defense. and since phil jackson has arrived its obvious to anybody that follows basketball that the lakers, with the exception of last year, are the best defensive team in the league - lead by shaq oneal! and it was their lock down defense that pushed the lakers over the top and lead to three titles. just look at their championchip seasons they are ranked #1 in opp field goal percentage each year (or very close to that). and just to further push this point of how good shaq is on defense the only difference between the lakers of last year and the lakers of the three previous years was shaq being out of shape. for the most part all other things were held constant. the lakers were dead last in opp field goal percentage and 3pt percentage last year. in other words a healthy and in shape shaq transforms a team from worst to best! has the presence, or lack thereof, hakeem ever had such an impact on a team? umm no.

well at least you admit to shaq averaging more points, rebounds and assists but then again its pretty hard to argue with numbers.

so people are laughing at me? i got owned?? kid, its time for you to grow up.

Seriously, people are laughing. Why are you talking about two different positions guarding one another? No sht, a center (Shaq) isn't going to guard a forward like Webber or TD. What's your point??

You're asking me to watch TD get dunked on by Shaq THREE YEARS AGO. That would be the 99-00 Season right? For your info, TD WAS ONLY IN THE LEAGUE 3 YEARS THEN!! How did Kobe do in the league 3 years in? Was he in his prime? Didn't think so. Funny how you don't talk about this year: WHEN BOTH MEN WERE IN THEIR PRIMES TD OWNED SHAQ.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Crappopotamus
of course. i hate it when people think shaq is good only because of his size. if you were that big, you probably wouldnt be able to tie your own goddamn shoes let alone hit a free throw. the man is 7 foot something and 300 pounds. to be that massive and still be able to hit shots and stuff is incredible.

whoever is the best now is the best ever imo. the game is constantly changing. you cant compare the game wilt and those boys played with todays game. everyone is stronger and more athletic. defensive strategies are better. shaq would shut some of those guys down.

You have got to be kidding me. Wilt Chamberlain would score all over Shaq, no problem. That man had skills. Shaq has size, and above average quickness for his size, but mostly, he has size.
Since officials basically don't call what the rule book says is a foul anymore, players like Shaq can excel. If you put Shaq back in the NBA 25 years ago, he'd be fouled out in the first quarter.
Then you have to look at his actual skills: What are those, besides being bigger than anyone else and the ability to dunk? He certainly can't shoot outside of 4 feet.
As far as today's game, basketball today is pitiful. The NBA is so big now that overall play is watered down, stats are down, and players are spoiled. Look at overall NBA or NCAA shooting percentages, free throw and field goal versus what they were even 15 years ago and you'll see what I mean.
Put Wilt, Russell, or Kareem in their prime into today's NBA and you'll forget who Shaq is.

 

[josphII]

Originally posted by: Lifer
josphII - sorry, you can't compare a trio of barkley, hakeem and pippen (most overrated 50 best nba player) all on the twilight of their careers to a young kobe and shaq in their prime.

if you want to throw hakeem and shaq 1v1 in the prime of their careers, with FAIR OFFICIATING, shaq would get owned worse than you in this thread right now.

oh yes you hit the nail on the head. shaq actually is one of the 5 worst players of all time. the only reason he is as good as he is now is because the refs are biased

are you people actually keeping a straight face when you say hakeem can own shaq? i highly doubt it.

 

[NeoV]

my last post in this thread...too many kids in here talking about "owned" and other stupid sayings...

Spanky, Sabonis, before he came to the NBA, was a basketball legend...NBA all-star teams playing against him in Europe raved about how talented he was...before he came to the US, he had ruptured his achilles tendon twice and had multiple knee operations...the Sabonis we have seen is a mere shell of the player he once was.

Bill Russell only played with Bob Cousy? Check the rosters! There are 5 - yes, 5 other Hall of Fame players from his Celtic teams...I'll let you look them up. Russell in the NBA today would be an average power forward, a less athletic Ben Wallace type player, though a better free throw shooter and fewer bad hair days.

Hakeem vs Shaq talk needs to end...they are two very different players. It is funny to see all the defense stats mentioned when Shaq averages more pts, rebounds, and assists though. Hakeem clearly was the more fluid player on offense, but he needed to develop moves like his turn-around fade-away because he was an undersized center. Shaq hasn't needed to evolve his offense game much, though he has developed more of an offensive arsenal now than just dunking. The bottom line of scoring, though, is putting the ball in the basket, period.

Shouldn't Hakeem's two championships at least bring mention of the fact that the only reason they occurred was the fact that Jordan was playing baseball?

Tim Duncan is a great player. He is also not a true center, in fact, he plays power forward for the Spurs. Head-to-head with Shaq, TD can't guard him, period. While TD may score some on Shaq, it isn't going to happen much in the paint.

Finally, the 'zone' defense rule was clearly a move to counter Shaq's post-season dominance prior the rule going into effect, and yes, the zone wasn't used much last year, but this past season it was used quite a bit.

My top center list:

Wilt
Kareem
Russell (only in his era, not in today's game, and he had tons of help)
Shaq
Hakeem
G.Mikan
B.Walton - most skilled Center ever, couldn't stay healthy though
M.Malone
D.Robinson
P.Ewing
A.Sabonis - probably the second most skilled center ever, health issues again though
A.Gilmore

 

[BamBam215]

the old shaq is one of the best centers in the history of nba. the shaq of now is too heavy and slow. you can see it in his rebound lacking ability. but still the guy has awesome footwork for a man of his stature. anyone who says he only uses his body probably never even stepped foot on the court.

 

[HamSupLo]

My top 5 centers:

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

 

[BamBam215]

Originally posted by: dud
You have GOT to be kidding! Shaq is a jack ass and has as much class as a festering ball of dog snot. You insult every over "quality" player on that list by including him. What are you a Lakers fan? I could go on for hours ... of course, I live in Orlando.

lol. u're a straight laker hater because if u actually knew anything, u'd know that shaq is arrogant cuz he's a clown. remember all that time he's clowning yao? well they're like buddies now cuz everybody in the league knows shaq is a comedian except haters like you.

 

[wyvrn]

You have got to be kidding me. Wilt Chamberlain would score all over Shaq, no problem. That man had skills. Shaq has size, and above average quickness for his size, but mostly, he has size

Offensively, Hakeem was too fast for Shaq and that is why he owned him. Defensively, he used good technique and superior blocking skills to prevent Shaq from gaining inside advantage. Most of the centers Shaq plays against now are not nearly as adept as Hakeem, hence why Shaq's scoring numbers have gone up. Plus, that little circle in the lane where contact does not result in a foul has helped players like Shaq that make their living 2 feet from the basket.

 

[RudeBoie]

Tim Duncan plays PF because the Spurs had David Robinson, not because he's more of a PF.

If you're depending on the public image of someone to make your own judgement of someone, I feel sorry for you.

I would hate to charactertize you just on this thread.