Shenmue on Sega Saturn

[ebow86]

I am a huge Sega Saturn fan for many reasons, as well as being a fan of "Shenmue" on the Sega Dreamcast. Although a somewhat well known fact, Shenmue was actually first developed on the Sega Saturn, but unfourntally the game was scrapped and moved over onto the newer much more promosing Dreamcast.

Those of you who are fans of the Sega Saturn probably know what kind of potential the system had in the correct developers hands, and also know what the capabilities of the system were. It's not until you see shenmue running on the Saturn that you realize what an extraordinary achievement this game would have been.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh2WtGUCQbI

As you can see, development must have been pretty far in, because there are clearly parts from Shenmue 2 shown in the clip. This video is mind blowing when you consider what a technological achievement this would have been compared to all the other games on the Saturn at the time.

Maybe in the end it was for the better, because of the move to Dreamcast we probably received a much better game than the Saturn version would have been. It is also sad that playable copies of this game are probably sitting in some random desk somewhere never to see the light of day.

 

[SandEagle]

i loved Shenmue. pretty much the reason i bought the dreamcast at launch. man, was it boring and epic at the same time!

i remember watching the trailer a million times before it came out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf-MK4599A8

the shen fa vocale, soundtrack is still amazing to this day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJOKE4k37vA

 

[ShawnD1]

Game looks too Japanese.

Would having it on a different system really change anything? Final Fantasy 7 on Playstation looks like a pile of turds but apparently it's fun.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Game looks too Japanese.

Would having it on a different system really change anything? Final Fantasy 7 on Playstation looks like a pile of turds but apparently it's fun.

Huh? Looks too Japanese? Sheesh...I'd hate to tell you that pretty much every console today has foreign pats in it and I bet your TV is made in Korea or Taiwan. If you're a hater you can't have gaming...


Anyway it's too bad that Shenmue 3 will never be.

 

[JD50]

Huh? Looks too Japanese? Sheesh...I'd hate to tell you that pretty much every console today has foreign pats in it and I bet your TV is made in Korea or Taiwan. If you're a hater you can't have gaming...


Anyway it's too bad that Shenmue 3 will never be.

Uhhh....what? That's not what he meant by "it looks too Japanese"

 

[ebow86]

Game looks too Japanese.

Would having it on a different system really change anything? Final Fantasy 7 on Playstation looks like a pile of turds but apparently it's fun.

10 years from now people will make similar comments on how Crisis and Rage look like "a pile of turds" yet today these games are the pinnacle of graphics technology. Final Fantasy was once in that category, things like that can be easy to forget.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Uhhh....what? That's not what he meant by "it looks too Japanese"

Sounded racist and hate filled to me.

 

[Slick5150]

Those actually are pretty impressive graphics for the Saturn/PSX era. Certainly got a dramatic improvement by the time it got to Dreamcast, but still.

 

[ebow86]

Those actually are pretty impressive graphics for the Saturn/PSX era. Certainly got a dramatic improvement by the time it got to Dreamcast, but still.

Especially when you take into consideration how difficult developing for the Saturn was. The results could be spectacular though, as this video shows.

 

[mmntech]

Especially when you take into consideration how difficult developing for the Saturn was. The results could be spectacular though, as this video shows.

Nobody knew how to develop games for dual processors at the time. It even supposedly had two GPUs. None of that really became standard till around 2005. Even then, coding for them was iffy at times. Sega was ahead of their time in the late 90s. Sadly, that's what ultimately killed their hardware business.

 

[totalnoob]

They also made Virtua Fighter 3 for the Saturn but decided to scrap it because they thought it would take away from Dreamcast sales. With hilly 3D stages and backgrounds, it pushed the system to the limit..

 

[darkswordsman17]

Personally, this shows me how screwed up Sega was. They obviously spent a lot porting Shenmue to the Dreamcast, but this makes it seem like even more of a screwup.

They seemingly had a lot of the game depth done, just needed to up the engine and improve it and then focus on the game. Instead, we get thousands of little doo-dads you can buy from vending machines and stores that have zero affect on the game.

I've felt the same way about the Elder Scrolls games, they put too much into adding little things that I guess to them seem to add depth but really don't. If they cut all the little pointless items down to about 1/10 of what they have it'd still have a lot without it being on the point of absurdity, and they could likely use the extra time/effort on something more beneficial.

Considering that both series' games had clear issues that definitely could have used more time being addressed, it just is baffling. I like both, but they had so much more potential than they ended up realizing.

Sounded racist and hate filled to me.

It is. But that's typical for him.

Nobody knew how to develop games for dual processors at the time. It even supposedly had two GPUs. None of that really became standard till around 2005. Even then, coding for them was iffy at times. Sega was ahead of their time in the late 90s. Sadly, that's what ultimately killed their hardware business.

The Saturn was just a failure across the board. The dual processor setup was poorly implemented (they would be constantly competing for memory in such a manner that it effectively nullified either of their performance). The two GPUs did different things. They also screwed up by going for quadrangles instead of triangles.

 

[ebow86]

Personally, this shows me how screwed up Sega was. They obviously spent a lot porting Shenmue to the Dreamcast, but this makes it seem like even more of a screwup.

They seemingly had a lot of the game depth done, just needed to up the engine and improve it and then focus on the game. Instead, we get thousands of little doo-dads you can buy from vending machines and stores that have zero affect on the game.

I've felt the same way about the Elder Scrolls games, they put too much into adding little things that I guess to them seem to add depth but really don't. If they cut all the little pointless items down to about 1/10 of what they have it'd still have a lot without it being on the point of absurdity, and they could likely use the extra time/effort on something more beneficial.

Considering that both series' games had clear issues that definitely could have used more time being addressed, it just is baffling. I like both, but they had so much more potential than they ended up realizing.



It is. But that's typical for him.



The Saturn was just a failure across the board. The dual processor setup was poorly implemented (they would be constantly competing for memory in such a manner that it effectively nullified either of their performance). The two GPUs did different things. They also screwed up by going for quadrangles instead of triangles.

Blaming the failure of the Sega Saturn solely on it's complicated architecture isn't valid IMO.

The reason the Saturn failed was because of a rushed launch in the US, too high of a price tag, the Sony Playstation, and most importantly Sega Of Japan's incompetence when it came to the US market.

There was a website a few years ago that had the entire story on the Sega Saturn, from the moment it was on the drawing boards to the moment Sega pulled the plug on it. It goes into detail on how Sega Of America was trying to tell Sega Of Japan that the launch was too early and the price was too high, but the effort was in vain. It also show's how the final fatal blow was the moron named Bernie Stolar proclaiming to the public that "The Saturn is not our future" thus destroying any last chances the Saturn may have had. Unfortunately, I can not remember where the website is and a google search is fruitless. But once you read about the history of the Saturn, you realize that the complicated hardware was just a small part of the reasoning behind the Saturn's failure.

The Sega Saturn was the only console from the 5th generation era to have built in memory, as well as having a solid up and running internet service that provided head to head gaming online, both things were not available on the Playstation or N64. Also, though the hardware was generally a nightmare for the developers, there were some who utilized the hardware very effectively, the Shemue video I linked to is a good example, as well as others like Need for Speed and Panzer Dragoon Saga.

The Sega Saturn was ahead of it's time in many ways, and was unfairly doomed from the begining because of a few fatal marketing flaws. And most importantly lets remember that the Saturn was a fairly large sucess in Japan, so saying the Saturn was a "complete failure across the board" isn't valid IMHO.

 

[Sonikku]

I was playing panzer dragoon orta on my 360 the other day when for kicks, I gave panzer dragoon a try from the extras menu and I could hardly believe how much of an eyesore the game was. No doubt it must have looked incredible at the time.

It's pretty ironic developers gave sega such a hard time as hard to design for considering how they were chomping at the bit to line up and give Sony praise for the technical marvel that was the PS2 and later PS3 development nightmares. Oh well. I think what hurt Sega was that they sold for $400 while Sony charged 300 and they didn't stick with their release date. (Saturnday Saturday) Shipping half a year ahead of time out of the blue just infuriated developers because it meant only Sega had had the time to get some launch games out on the console.

It also infuriated a number of retailers because only a select few had it in the surprise launch. KB toys would be so angry they'd never carry another sega system again and Walmart well... If you piss off walmart you're pretty much screwed as a business. Meanwhile you had sega trying to sell people on the idea that they got a 32 bit system out of the 32x while simultaneously pushing the saturn. Their own products worked against each other for retail space and it was just a lost cause.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Blaming the failure of the Sega Saturn solely on it's complicated architecture isn't valid IMO.

The reason the Saturn failed was because of a rushed launch in the US, too high of a price tag, the Sony Playstation, and most importantly Sega Of Japan's incompetence when it came to the US market.

There was a website a few years ago that had the entire story on the Sega Saturn, from the moment it was on the drawing boards to the moment Sega pulled the plug on it. It goes into detail on how Sega Of America was trying to tell Sega Of Japan that the launch was too early and the price was too high, but the effort was in vain. It also show's how the final fatal blow was the moron named Bernie Stolar proclaiming to the public that "The Saturn is not our future" thus destroying any last chances the Saturn may have had. Unfortunately, I can not remember where the website is and a google search is fruitless. But once you read about the history of the Saturn, you realize that the complicated hardware was just a small part of the reasoning behind the Saturn's failure.

The Sega Saturn was the only console from the 5th generation era to have built in memory, as well as having a solid up and running internet service that provided head to head gaming online, both things were not available on the Playstation or N64. Also, though the hardware was generally a nightmare for the developers, there were some who utilized the hardware very effectively, the Shemue video I linked to is a good example, as well as others like Need for Speed and Panzer Dragoon Saga.

The Sega Saturn was ahead of it's time in many ways, and was unfairly doomed from the begining because of a few fatal marketing flaws. And most importantly lets remember that the Saturn was a fairly large sucess in Japan, so saying the Saturn was a "complete failure across the board" isn't valid IMHO.

I didn't, that's why I said across the board.

Unfortunately for Sega they fixed the hardware (well not entirely) and even software side (easier to develop) with the Dreamcast, but they didn't fix the rest and because they had already done so much damage (media, developers, and retailers) that they had already doomed it as well.

 

[mmntech]

I was playing panzer dragoon orta on my 360 the other day when for kicks, I gave panzer dragoon a try from the extras menu and I could hardly believe how much of an eyesore the game was. No doubt it must have looked incredible at the time.

It's pretty ironic developers gave sega such a hard time as hard to design for considering how they were chomping at the bit to line up and give Sony praise for the technical marvel that was the PS2 and later PS3 development nightmares. Oh well. I think what hurt Sega was that they sold for $400 while Sony charged 300 and they didn't stick with their release date. (Saturnday Saturday) Shipping half a year ahead of time out of the blue just infuriated developers because it meant only Sega had had the time to get some launch games out on the console.

It also infuriated a number of retailers because only a select few had it in the surprise launch. KB toys would be so angry they'd never carry another sega system again and Walmart well... If you piss off walmart you're pretty much screwed as a business. Meanwhile you had sega trying to sell people on the idea that they got a 32 bit system out of the 32x while simultaneously pushing the saturn. Their own products worked against each other for retail space and it was just a lost cause.

The PS3 had the same problem as the Saturn. Multi-core gaming didn't appear until around 2005 with the 360. It features three cores, the PS3 has six. Not to mention that the Cell was a radically new and complex chip design. It's a PowerPC like the Xenon, but it's not. The trick was getting full utilization out of the SPEs.

Sega's hardware business failed for a lot of reasons. Price, lack of titles, too much focus on arcades, complex hardware.

 

[ebow86]

I didn't, that's why I said across the board.

Unfortunately for Sega they fixed the hardware (well not entirely) and even software side (easier to develop) with the Dreamcast, but they didn't fix the rest and because they had already done so much damage (media, developers, and retailers) that they had already doomed it as well.

Ok, sorry about the confusion.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Ok, sorry about the confusion.

No problem (and I hope you didn't take my response as a passive aggressive snap or anything). You definitely know the Saturn as well as I do. It is a shame, although I really was not a big Sega fan until the Dreamcast.

 

[Skel]

I find it kind of interesting that threads about Shenmue are much more interesting and entertaining then the game was

 

[Tweak155]

I remember the hype behind Shenmue (the game would be day or night based on your system time!!!!) but I never got around to it.

I loved the Dreamcast. First system I bought with my own money and I got it when it came out. I still have it and I still have all the games I bought. The system was definitely ahead of its time and was excellent (IMO). But come on, copy any disk and it works? Sucks for Dreamcast.

 

[jdyeah]

For the era its amazing...but the graphics are in that tweaner area for me that I don't enjoy.


Basically, the first forays into this type of gaming with 3D graphics like this just didn't reach the graphics quality levels needed until dreamcast came out.

 

[jdyeah]

Blaming the failure of the Sega Saturn solely on it's complicated architecture isn't valid IMO.

The reason the Saturn failed was because of a rushed launch in the US, too high of a price tag, the Sony Playstation, and most importantly Sega Of Japan's incompetence when it came to the US market.

There was a website a few years ago that had the entire story on the Sega Saturn, from the moment it was on the drawing boards to the moment Sega pulled the plug on it. It goes into detail on how Sega Of America was trying to tell Sega Of Japan that the launch was too early and the price was too high, but the effort was in vain. It also show's how the final fatal blow was the moron named Bernie Stolar proclaiming to the public that "The Saturn is not our future" thus destroying any last chances the Saturn may have had. Unfortunately, I can not remember where the website is and a google search is fruitless. But once you read about the history of the Saturn, you realize that the complicated hardware was just a small part of the reasoning behind the Saturn's failure.

The Sega Saturn was the only console from the 5th generation era to have built in memory, as well as having a solid up and running internet service that provided head to head gaming online, both things were not available on the Playstation or N64. Also, though the hardware was generally a nightmare for the developers, there were some who utilized the hardware very effectively, the Shemue video I linked to is a good example, as well as others like Need for Speed and Panzer Dragoon Saga.

The Sega Saturn was ahead of it's time in many ways, and was unfairly doomed from the begining because of a few fatal marketing flaws. And most importantly lets remember that the Saturn was a fairly large sucess in Japan, so saying the Saturn was a "complete failure across the board" isn't valid IMHO.

I read the same articles...because I was looking into what 'classic' games to buy and after a lot of hours of searching and research I inevitably became involved with the 'demise' of Sega.

Found some interesting reads, that is for sure!

 

[jdyeah]

BTW, Shenmue II on the Dreamcast was sick...I bought the PAL version of it and had to use some kinda region converter software but it was easy, really.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I find it kind of interesting that threads about Shenmue are much more interesting and entertaining then the game was

Heh, yeah. The game had a lot of potential, but was just so weird and quirky for like the first 3 discs. Then when you're finally getting the hang of it, the story really kicks into gear and then its over.

I read the same articles...because I was looking into what 'classic' games to buy and after a lot of hours of searching and research I inevitably became involved with the 'demise' of Sega.

Found some interesting reads, that is for sure!

Yeah there's a lot of interesting stuff. Really, I think the single biggest thing is Sega ruined their relationship with developers. The stupid early release for the Saturn (and then basically publicly announcing they were giving up on it within 2 years or so) hurt. I have to wonder if it went beyond that though, as it seems that companies like EA were spreading falsities about the hardware capabilities of the Saturn (or the PS1, bit of both, the main point being they claimed the PS1 was much more powerful), and then game media parroted this and so gamers were under the impression that the hardware sucked.

The sad thing is it happened pretty much the exact same way with the Dreamcast and PS2. That really highlighted how little mainstream media or even dedicated media (game media) understand this stuff. Too bad they didn't learn their lessons about Sony the 2nd and 3rd times around. Maybe the 4th.

Really, that Sega could piss off developers so badly is a testament considering Nintendo's had a rep for, forever really although it was about the worst around the N64 era, not being developer friendly. Sony hasn't exactly gotten a lot of praise there either, although I think a lot of that has been the PS2 and PS3 and the hardware Sony chose.

 

[Anarchist420]

I think the Sega Saturn failed because Sega of America was pouring all of their resources into the 32X rather than trying to learn how to make American software for it. There was very little software done by any of Sega's American divisions for the Saturn. If it hadn't been for the 32X, Sega would probably still be making hardware today. Sonic Xtreme probably would've been released had SoA not wasted time trying to make something like it for the 32X.

The Dreamcast failed because the Saturn failed, which failed because the 32X failed and because of all of the pre-launch hype of the PS2.

I look back at those times and wonder how in the hell I played all of those games with all of that texture and edge aliasing.