SHOCKING NEWS!!!

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Wrong Eagle Keeper----lots of groups out there---with one thing in common---they want an end to Israeli domination. And I am just reading the tea leaves and showing you what will happen.----------you keep trying to convince yourself that Israel does not have to pick choice one or two---and its evidently working for you. But is it working on those people who will be obtaining and pegging those missiles at Israel?---and those people giving those missiles to the most competent groups---when you are relying on the incompetence of existing groups.

And when those missiles keep coming---and coming---and coming---are you going to say to yourself--its not really happening---I proved it by logic?---well---someone has to be the new Iraqi information minister.

There are groups that want an end to Israeli dominations - agreed.
Are those groups willing to come to the table and do they have the power/authority to enforce the agreements.

If there is a group that is willing to come to the table and force any outcasts to play by the agreed upon rules (HAMMERED OUT AT THE TABLE), then your scenario will work.

My view is that at present there is no such groiup that fits such a criterea.
Therefore until there is; Israel has noone to actively negotiate any type of settlement.

Arafat pretended that he had such authority - however, he refused to enforce it.

 

[Lemon law]

You have a point---there will likely be no ONE active group Israel can per say negotiate with---it will likely be many groups--but getting an agreement with any large groups will accomplish the same needed steps. Defusing the tensions between groups and established some basis for mutual co-operation--and resolving many mutual grievances that drive this struggle. To pretend it will be all out war one day and total peace the next is one thing---but when the factors that drive the struggle are greatly reduced---struggles of this type often just fade away.

But even if Israel does not choose to find negotiating partners---it still then defaults to the same choose choice one or choice two.

 

[AreaCode707]

When I read about 9 year old Palestinian boys who want to kill all Israelis regardless of circumstance, my confidence in the Palestinian will and ability to negotiate a peace settlement, no matter how favorable the terms to Palestine, is seriously shaken.

 

[Lemon law]

Well, HotChic,

I would not assume that observation of your is anything usable---some nine year old boys never grow up and others do. And Israel has no shortage of the never grow up types either.
And looking at the current Israeli leadership---your 9 year old boy does have some traction in describing the lot.

But its also my personal observation that mankind has made no emotional progress in the past 10,000 years or so. Only our technology has changed for the better.

So I propose the following thought experiment---lets flash back about 3000 years when the jewish shoe was on the other foot---after spending some years whipping on the various weaker people in the Israeli locality, the various jewish tribes suddenly found themselves confronting the power of Egypt when their army happened by the region--one of those no contest things---and rather than kill the lot of them---the Egyptians imported the lot into Egypt and made slaves of them--strong backs and strong minds are always useful.

After many generations of slavery the desire to return was always there---but they were too useful as slaves--so why should Egypt let them go? And born into this was the man who would change that status quo---namely Moses---who said to Egypt---let my people go---and got answered with hell no---and you and whose army? Then Moses hatched plan B---calling forth all manner of loathsome plagues---from frogs to flies---and other nasties---and then and only then did Egypt knuckle under and let those pesky people go.

If you then understand the rocket is the Palestinian modern equivalent to the plagues Moses called down---you start to get my point---but where the apology differs is just in one minor detail---when Egypt let those pesky people go---it was exit stage East---and they removed themselves far away---and the Palestinian will have a different demand and desire,
namely they have no place else to go and they want some of the land the state of Israel stole from them back.---and will not accept the status of being second class citizens in the land of their birth.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
You have a point---there will likely be no ONE active group Israel can per say negotiate with---it will likely be many groups--but getting an agreement with any large groups will accomplish the same needed steps. Defusing the tensions between groups and established some basis for mutual co-operation--and resolving many mutual grievances that drive this struggle. To pretend it will be all out war one day and total peace the next is one thing---but when the factors that drive the struggle are greatly reduced---struggles of this type often just fade away.

But even if Israel does not choose to find negotiating partners---it still then defaults to the same choose choice one or choice two.

as usual Lemon you are inswerting your own convoluted logic.

The bottom line is very simple.

Until one party weith enough clout to reach an agreement and to phgysically if necessary stop the missle attacks and other attacks there will be no peace. Nop matter who negotiates a peace it will never happen until somebody rises from who knows where who can stop the fighting!

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
You have a point---there will likely be no ONE active group Israel can per say negotiate with---it will likely be many groups--but getting an agreement with any large groups will accomplish the same needed steps. Defusing the tensions between groups and established some basis for mutual co-operation--and resolving many mutual grievances that drive this struggle. To pretend it will be all out war one day and total peace the next is one thing---but when the factors that drive the struggle are greatly reduced---struggles of this type often just fade away.

But even if Israel does not choose to find negotiating partners---it still then defaults to the same choose choice one or choice two.

If Israel does not choose it's dance partners; then the Palestinians will have to.
At present, they refuse to.

Israel can come to the dance floor as a blind date, but if no one shows up, why should they stay. To make a fool of themselves?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well, HotChic,

I would not assume that observation of your is anything usable---some nine year old boys never grow up and others do. And Israel has no shortage of the never grow up types either.
And looking at the current Israeli leadership---your 9 year old boy does have some traction in describing the lot.

But its also my personal observation that mankind has made no emotional progress in the past 10,000 years or so. Only our technology has changed for the better.

So I propose the following thought experiment---lets flash back about 3000 years when the jewish shoe was on the other foot---after spending some years whipping on the various weaker people in the Israeli locality, the various jewish tribes suddenly found themselves confronting the power of Egypt when their army happened by the region--one of those no contest things---and rather than kill the lot of them---the Egyptians imported the lot into Egypt and made slaves of them--strong backs and strong minds are always useful.

After many generations of slavery the desire to return was always there---but they were too useful as slaves--so why should Egypt let them go? And born into this was the man who would change that status quo---namely Moses---who said to Egypt---let my people go---and got answered with hell no---and you and whose army? Then Moses hatched plan B---calling forth all manner of loathsome plagues---from frogs to flies---and other nasties---and then and only then did Egypt knuckle under and let those pesky people go.

If you then understand the rocket is the Palestinian modern equivalent to the plagues Moses called down---you start to get my point---but where the apology differs is just in one minor detail---when Egypt let those pesky people go---it was exit stage East---and they removed themselves far away---and the Palestinian will have a different demand and desire,
namely they have no place else to go and they want some of the land the state of Israel stole from them back.---and will not accept the status of being second class citizens in the land of their birth.

The Palestinians wandered for 40 years - no one wanted them. The guardian Arab neighbors herded them into refugee camps.

Now the Palestinians want what they had before they were lost in the spoils of war.
the key words are bolded.

They can either attempt to commit war to regain the land (as the Arab coalition did multiple times) or negotiate with the people that control the land.

Neither at present seems to be feasible to the Palestinians. So they allow some militant groups to harass Israel (for warm fuzzys) and then complain when Israel returns the gesture. And it is harassment that is being on both sides.

 

[zephyrprime]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Now the Palestinians want what they had before they were lost in the spoils of war.
the key words are bolded.

Why do use the "spoils of war" argument? Germany gained poland and france as spoils of war. Iraq gained kuwait. I guess since you support israel keeping it's spoils you also would have supported germany and iraq keeping theirs?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime
Why do use the "spoils of war" argument? Germany gained poland and france as spoils of war. Iraq gained kuwait. I guess since you support israel keeping it's spoils you also would have supported germany and iraq keeping theirs?

Germany and Iraq were the agressors, while Israel wasn't.

 

[Lemon law]

Under the UN charter---the organization that grants Israel legitamacy--there is no such thing as the spoils of war and UN membership. By that modern law---it must all go back to the original owners.
Regardless if Israel was the defender or the aggressor.

 

[imported_dna]

Since you seem so knowledgable about the UN charter and international law, what do they say about starting wars, Lemon law?

 

[EagleKeeper]

The UN charter also did not grant the Palestinians a state.

The land/people was to be monitored/proctored by the Arab coalition. And we saw what they did with it.

Therefore what country is the owner of such land.

Egypt does not want Gaza
Jordan does not want the West Bank.

Israel is the only country that is willing to take responsibility for such land.