shooting at quebec city mosque, 5 reported dead

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,576
7,637
136
I would argue that this is terrorism because, like the San Beradino or Chattanooga or South Carolina mass murders, the shooter had a definite political goal, whether that be enacting political change, sparking a race war, or simply terrorizing a particular group into hopefully changing behavior. That places these people a step below even senseless mass murderers such as school massacre murderers or the DC snipers who simply want to murder. The organization might be only the Internet, which any mentally ill person can use to justify any point of view. Sure, this requires mental illness, but anyone who murders people he doesn't even know is severely broken even if a member of a group that nurtures the evil beliefs and intentions.

To me, hate crimes don't really have a purpose except in sentencing and in things which aren't crimes (or at least, not so serious) unless done to a particular person or for a particular cause.

What group was this Canadian shooter a part of?

You say the internet can qualify as organization, and certainly ideas / planning / inspiration can be derived... but how material is that for lone wolves? It would help if we had evidence of such support, instead of mere imagination, guessing, and conjecture. If this is terrorism, then surely he was not alone? Who else do we hold responsible and thus target for retribution for this massacre? If it is a terrorist organization then surely law enforcement has more action to take against those involved. But at this point there aren't any. He is a lone wolf.

That's still true at this point, right, that he stands alone?

As I consider this topic, and the stakes involved, I fear we are making mistakes by elevating lone wolves and giving them undeserved attribution to a greater cause. If an American thinks ISIS sounds cool and commits such a crime, does it make him ISIS? Do we lay such an incident at their feet, add to their "tally" to further their "glory" in the minds of the vulnerable? If Mateen in Orlando is not discussed as a representative of others, but merely his own hated, I feel that diminishes him. And such status might both rob him of his "glory" and prevent the greater threat from also rising in people's minds.

And that perception might be half the battle against terrorism.

I think back to September 11th and how Americans have felt about Islam and Muslims ever since. On the news are stories of terrorism, of violence, of hatred. Night after night, year after year. These things are reported and those reports inform us... they define Muslims to the public. People want to literally preemptively attack Iran because of that perception driving fear. That fear also drives attacks against Muslims. Because every individual act of hatred and violence is given attribution to a greater group, whether there's a real organization / connection or not.

We do not spend the time to diminish these acts, and people pay a very real price. The world goes to war over it. Iraq falls into chaos and terror and ISIS forms to commit genocide in the wake of our stupidity. If we did not let fear drive the narrative, if we did not rush to attribute hatred and crimes to a greater cause... perhaps as many as a million people would be alive today. I look at these failures and I see the root of our mistakes. We are driven by a perception.

And so to "win" the War on Terror I truly believe we must diminish terrorists. For our sake, and theirs.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
What group was this Canadian shooter a part of?

You say the internet can qualify as organization, and certainly ideas / planning / inspiration can be derived... but how material is that for lone wolves? It would help if we had evidence of such support, instead of mere imagination, guessing, and conjecture. If this is terrorism, then surely he was not alone? Who else do we hold responsible and thus target for retribution for this massacre? If it is a terrorist organization then surely law enforcement has more action to take against those involved. But at this point there aren't any. He is a lone wolf.

That's still true at this point, right, that he stands alone?

As I consider this topic, and the stakes involved, I fear we are making mistakes by elevating lone wolves and giving them undeserved attribution to a greater cause. If an American thinks ISIS sounds cool and commits such a crime, does it make him ISIS? Do we lay such an incident at their feet, add to their "tally" to further their "glory" in the minds of the vulnerable? If Mateen in Orlando is not discussed as a representative of others, but merely his own hated, I feel that diminishes him. And such status might both rob him of his "glory" and prevent the greater threat from also rising in people's minds.

And that perception might be half the battle against terrorism.

I think back to September 11th and how Americans have felt about Islam and Muslims ever since. On the news are stories of terrorism, of violence, of hatred. Night after night, year after year. These things are reported and those reports inform us... they define Muslims to the public. People want to literally preemptively attack Iran because of that perception driving fear. That fear also drives attacks against Muslims. Because every individual act of hatred and violence is given attribution to a greater group, whether there's a real organization / connection or not.

We do not spend the time to diminish these acts, and people pay a very real price. The world goes to war over it. Iraq falls into chaos and terror and ISIS forms to commit genocide in the wake of our stupidity. If we did not let fear drive the narrative, if we did not rush to attribute hatred and crimes to a greater cause... perhaps as many as a million people would be alive today. I look at these failures and I see the root of our mistakes. We are driven by a perception.

And so to "win" the War on Terror I truly believe we must diminish terrorists. For our sake, and theirs.
I don't think there's necessarily anyone else to punish for his actions. But I do think that his actions were driven by the desire to terrorize Muslim immigrants to achieve a political goal - fewer Muslim immigrants - which would hopefully have repercussions far beyond the people he actually shot. Thus even though he is (apparently) a mentally ill lone wolf, he's still a terrorist. Because terrorism is an action, not necessarily an organization. Even some domestic Muslim terrorists had little to no material assistance from organized groups, just an overall world view, Internet proselytizing, and moral support.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,183
15,776
126
What about speaking out against terrorism?? Why won't he open his twitter yap about this particular case?


Cuz he's the orangutan in chief?
He's too busy fighting with other head of states.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Has this guy, Bissonnette, confessed to a motive yet?

My google skills have failed me.

Fern
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Nah, you've been dead for years. After all, these are experts.
Wow, I am really pushing the odds. I'm a few weeks from 62 years old and have owned a gun(s) of some sort since I was 10 years old. I even had a BB Gun at the age of 7.

I think I'm buying some lottery tickets on the way home.

People who're any good at math can figure out the ratio of risk for gun vs terrorism injury/death. Presumably they would then proceed to address the more pressing concern instead of looking for some minority to hate on.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Nope. All that's happened is he was charged with six counts of first-degree murder and five counts of attempted murder using a restricted firearm and his lawyer has entered no plea at this time.

http://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...g-suspect-to-appear-in-court-monday-afternoon

It's gonna be a real mystery this one.

http://time.com/4654434/alexandre-bissonnette-quebec-mosque-shooting-donald-trump-marie-le-pen/

"The suspect in the shooting at a Quebec City mosque frequently voiced his support for President Donald Trump"
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
A small moment of beauty in the midst of 'not so beautiful'.

"QUEBEC -- An imam has told a funeral for three of the men who died in a mass shooting at a mosque that the alleged killer is also a victim.
...

Guillet told the funeral service for Mamadou Tanou Barry, 42, Ibrahima Barry, 39, and Azzeddine Soufiane, 57, that he hopes the shooting is the last of its kind.

He said the victims were the dead, the injured, the witnesses, Quebecers and Canadians -- but also the accused.

"Alexandre, before being a killer, he was a victim also," Guillet said.

"Before shooting bullets into the heads of his victims, somebody planted ideas, more dangerous than the bullets, in his head."

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/imam-c...ec-city-mosque-attack-1.3270208?autoPlay=true
 
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