Shootout: 780 Lightning vs 290

[Imouto]

I just proved what I've been saying all along.

40% perf over stock retail is unrealistic. Even a crazy 1.3 Ghz OC wouldn't mean a 40% perf increase over a rock bottom stock retail GTX 780 with GPU Boost.
Your last post shown a 88% scaling even with locked clocks.
GPU Boost at stock retail does jump from 890 Mhz to 990 Mhz for a whole 10 mins run (Tom's pic).
GPU Boost can't be simulated with fixed clocks.

If we go a little back in time:

Elfear was running his card on air on the 1150 Mhz run.
He said himself that the 290 was power constrained while OCed.
He said himself that the comparison wasn't fair.

 

[omeds]

FWIW I get around a 35% boost going from stock clocks (~105fps) to 1267 (~140 fps) with reference 780 SLI in Unigine Valley at extreme HD preset.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

I just proved what I've been saying all along.

You have said a lot, though I think "proved" is a little generous considering you haven't proven anything. Well except how good you are at ignoring the other person, and name calling.

40% perf over stock retail is unrealistic. Even a crazy 1.3 Ghz OC wouldn't mean a 40% perf increase over a rock bottom stock retail GTX 780 with GPU Boost.

This was your strawman, grats on beating that buddy! Or did you? I can't say for sure since it's never been my thing to really go into your strawman argument.

Here is what I said, let me know when you figure out what part of this is stock vs OC, then point me to the post where you debunked all of my results based on FPS scaling with core clock.

There seems to be some confusion about 780 scaling, hopefully despite being at 1080p I can clear that up a bit.

23% core OC netted 21% increase in performance.

Your last post shown a 88% scaling even with locked clocks.

Even with locked clocks? Oh man, wow, locked clocks, that is wizardry, burn him!


88% good enough for me, faster than the Ti at stock, probably pretty close to AM Ti since it's only a bit shy of Apoppins 100% fan speed max OC reference 780 Ti.

88% scaling from 915 to 1293, that seems to be pretty good to me. In line with a lot of my other results. That wizard and his 780!

GPU Boost at stock retail does jump from 890 Mhz to 990 Mhz for a whole 10 mins run (Tom's pic).

Yes those big split second jumps on one sample, nice. Truly a performance shattering discovery you've made.

GPU Boost can't be simulated with fixed clocks.

Once you discover why there is a slight discrepancy in the TR results I will laugh, but until then I'll enjoy the thought of you not doing anything other than talking and believing you've "proven" something.

If we go a little back in time:

Elfear was running his card on air on the 1150 Mhz run.
He said himself that the 290 was power constrained while OCed.
He said himself that the comparison wasn't fair.

You do that. :thumbsup:

 

[ICDP]

And you're definitely not biased towards the 290, right? You're definitely not trying to paint it in the best light, right? Gimme a break man. Confirmation bias. Three words for you. Pot kettle black.

There's nothing wrong with having a brand preference. I think it's fine. It isn't any different than a sports fan or car enthusiast making their pick. You can like whatever you like and that's great. But when you're sitting there telling me "CONFIRMATION BIAS" I can't help but laugh. Give me a break. Pot. Kettle. Black.

None of my posts are here to paint the R9 290 in an outstanding light, the only thing they do is tell it like it is. It is a great card at a great price (MSRP). Here in the UK a ref R9 290 is ~£80 cheaper than a GTX780 and it delivers identical performance. I prefer AMD over Nvidia but I'm not blinded by brand loyalty where I will defend everything about AMD.

• I don't tell people the R9 290 is a better GPU than a GTX780 because it clearly isn't. They are both very good GPUs that trade blows.
• I don't tell people GTX780 is crap, because it clearly isn't. It is an excellent GPU that in general will give very good OC results.
• The only thing I am guilty of in this thread is telling people (like you) that 30% OC on a GTX780 is not guaranteed and that of course a Lightning GTX780 is going to overclock much better than a ref R9 290.
• The reference R9 290/X cooler is horrendously poor and I will never be found defending it.
• The fact it took so long for AMD to release AIB custom cooled cards is unforgivable IMHO.
• The fact that R9 290X is the same price as a GTX780Ti in the US is so laughable it's pathetic. Though this is not AMDs fault that e-tailers are price gouging.
• The same thing applies to R9 290 ref vs GTX780 custom cooled versions. No way would I recommend an R9 290 ref over a GTX780 if they were the same price. It costs far too much to replace that horrible cooler.

I sold my GTX780s for £720 (paid £940 for them) here in the UK and the only reason I bought an R9 290 Reference was because the one I got was guaranteed to unlock to R9 290X. £300 for the card and £70 for the Arctic Hybrid cooler and I have a cool, quiet R9 290X for well less than the price of an R9 290X or 780Ti.

None of my posts here are about defending the R9 290, they are about letting people know 30% OC on a GTX780 (like you keep claiming) is NOT a guarantee.

 

[Silverforce11]

None of my posts here are about defending the R9 290, they are about letting people know 30% OC on a GTX780 (like you keep claiming) is NOT a guarantee.

To be fair, 780s are amazing overclockers.

http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/geforce_gtx_780/

863 -> 1168 core clock (base not boost).
~35% seems to be the average on air for base clocks. Even if we say the stock boost clocks is ~950mhz, its boost clocks once OC will be ~1.25ghz average, that is still a massive OC ~31%. Even IF stock 780 boost to 1ghz, its still a 25% OC average.

R290 definitely OC less.

http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/radeon_r9_290/

957 -> 1161 core clock. ~21%.

Compared to the 7950, which we all know was the previous champ at being the OC beast.

http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/radeon_hd_7950/

"Only" ~29% OC average.

The way I see it, even if 780s have a 10% performance deficit to R290, once average OC vs OC, it should end up equal or faster. Which is perfectly fine since in most places in the world, the 780 carry a $100-$200 price premium.

 

[ICDP]

To be fair, 780s are amazing overclockers.

http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/geforce_gtx_780/

863 -> 1168 core clock (base not boost).
~35% seems to be the average on air for base clocks. Even if we say the stock boost clocks is ~950mhz, its boost clocks once OC will be ~1.25ghz average, that is still a massive OC ~31%. Even IF stock 780 boost to 1ghz, its still a 25% OC average.

R290 definitely OC less.

http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/radeon_r9_290/

957 -> 1161 core clock. ~21%.

Compared to the 7950, which we all know was the previous champ at being the OC beast.

http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/radeon_hd_7950/

"Only" ~29% OC average.

The way I see it, even if 780s have a 10% performance deficit to R290, once average OC vs OC, it should end up equal or faster. Which is perfectly fine since in most places in the world, the 780 carry a $100-$200 price premium.

Again, I am not disputing that GTX780 has great OC potential and that overall it will easily trade blows with R9 290 or even 290X and Titan. I am simply stating that assuming/claiming that every GTX780 will get such scaling is idiotic.

Everyone here has been around GPUs long enough to know you can never generalise when it comes to overclocking/silicone lottery.

Note: The HD7950 stock clocks are 800MHz, not 880. So that makes it 42% overclock, not 29%

 

[BallaTheFeared]

I am simply stating that assuming/claiming that every GTX780 will get such scaling is idiotic.

Everyone here has been around GPUs long enough to know you can never generalise when it comes to overclocking/silicone lottery.

Scaling to a point or OC potential?

I would think so long as you keep core balanced with mem then everyone should see similar scaling.

Of course there are other factors, like cpu limitations...

I think scaling is a different concept than max oc. Since scaling should be fixed until the user or outside influences change it.

 

[ICDP]

Scaling to a point or OC potential?

I would think so long as you keep core balanced with mem then everyone should see similar scaling.

You have hit my point, the problem with GTX780 overclocking is that unless the VRAM overclocks well the core hits a wall due to bandwith limitations. Not all GTX780s are coming with Hynix or Samsung VRAM. A larger percentage are coming with Elpida VRAM, even Lighnings are coming with it now. Samsung memory is in very short supply and the AIB have had to rely on Hynix or Elpida and while Hynix is fine Elpida is notoriously crap for overclocking.

 

[Jovec]

\A larger percentage are coming with Elpida VRAM, even Lighnings are coming with it now.

Any way to tell short of pulling off the cooler and reading what's printed on the Vram itself?

 

[blackened23]

GPU-Z. Mouse over the VRAM.

 

[IEC]

GPU-Z. Mouse over the VRAM.

Lol.

 

[ICDP]

Any way to tell short of pulling off the cooler and reading what's printed on the Vram itself?

No, the Elpida equiped cards will run at stock speeds perfectly fine so the AIBs are not breaking any rules. It is possible to purchase 2x identical GPUs from the same AIB and get one with Hynix, or Samsung and the other with Elpida. Elpida VRAM seriously limits VRAM OC potential, it is a simple lottery if you get a card with crap Elpida VRAM or the good Samsung or Hynix VRAM. It's the same with R9 290/X cards, but at least the default bandwidth is much higher due to the 512bit bus width. At stock the reference R9 290 is ~5% faster than reference GTX780 and at MSRP it should be much cheaper if etailers aren't price gouging. Of course custom cooled GTX780s will be slightly faster again due to higher base clocks. Depending on the silicone lottery expect both cards to have similar performance even after overclocking.

Overclocking a GTX780 to high OC more often than not entails flashing a custom BIOS that uses far more volts than stock. If you can live with no warranty and slightly excessive volts (1.3) for air cooling then these custom BIOS hacks are a good way to gain performance. I know people think "sure how would the AIB know it had a custom BIOS" if a card had to be RMAd. The answer is that they might not, but then again can you take that chancee? So if you don't fancy invalidating your warranty on a $500+ GPU then forget I even mentioned this option.

If you live in the US the GTX780 custom cooled OC editions will be a similar price to R9 290 reference cards due to massive price gouging by etailers on AMD GPUs. If that is the case then I recommend the GTX780 all day long. IMHO the R9 290 reference is very poor for both performance and noise, it's barely adequate and IMHO is far too loud.

 

[BertolomeoDiaz]

in germany reference 290s start at 360/370€
i ordered a r9 290 windforce for 420€ yesterday including BF4
if i get 1100/1400 MHz out of it for 24/7 oc i´ll be pleased, gonna set fan to incline that hits 100% at 80°C, so 100% during games it will be (i always do it like that)

i just hope there won´t be any coil whining,
a loud but monotonous cooler fan i can tolerate, but the changing pitch and volume of coil whining won´t let you "filter it out" but draw attention all the time
it´s really annoying

780s start at 420/430€ (both reference and custom, but reference nvidia cooler is pretty nice, i´d say)

as i already have 770sli for my intel/nvidia machine i went with r290 for my latest highend gpu to pair with fx 8350
(also got a nice 990fx sabertooth rev.2 board, fx8350 was never really stable since i got it, even @ stock clock prime95 error detect within 5 sec, hope that will be better now)

in case i had only one system to upgrade i´d probably go with nvidia as i like their uncomplicated downsampling feature
also, when in the last years did you ever get nvidia high end card at a price that was not far more expensive than competitive amd card
(this is the time to move to "greener" pastures, if you never tried before because of nvidia being more expensive)
the same is true for 770 vs 280x, nvidia still more expensive, but not by far, as used to be

the r9 290 is gonna go with 3x full hd and will likely get company for cf rather sooner than later, (when i have the money)
didn´t want to downsample that monitor setup anyway,
extra 1Gb vram will be good for that setup, too, i suppose

r9 290x are 475-500€, r9 290x custom card more like 540€
gtx 780ti start at 600€, titan 900€

when i got the first 770, 780 non ti was at 600€ then dropped 150€ from one day to the next to 450€ when r9 290/290x came out, and suddenly new 780ti was the 600€ card
one could have seen that coming, but i didn´t expect such a drop or i would have gotten a 780 (and maybe/probably a second later) instead of 770sli
(no patience...would have preferred sapphire tri x r9 290 over windforce, too, but that wasn´t available)

seems like the mining hype didn´t hit germany as it did usa
no price movements since introduction of r9 290/290x, especially not cards becoming more expensive