Thank you again for your answer.
No problem. This is an interesting discussion.
B: This is something that happens over many lifetimes as the only immutable "thing" is the Atman (the undifferentiated consciousness aka the "soul").
M: I see this as a religious belief of which I have no proof and no idea. I hear you, but I don't believe what you say, not because I don't want to, I like the idea, but because I know only what I experience and I have no sense of past lives.
Sure, that is a valid assessment. At the same time, you cannot dismiss the possibility of such phenomena because there are several mutually exclusive factors that point to them. For example, you must have heard of hypnotic regression (?). The subconscious is supposed to remember every THOUGHT, not just lifetime. So, to delve into this subconscious and peer into the depths of one's own mind is a serious yet illuminating journey. You might ask, "This could be some Hindu gobble-de-beloved patriot so how can I verify this?"
Look for mutually exclusive pointers to this phenomenon of reincarnation; especially from NON-HINDU sources. There are umpteen examples, descriptions, and narrations of various people at various times in various places having near-death experiences who have vividly seen their past lives or at least events in them. There are umpteen examples of small children rambling about some obscure event or person and when researched, the events described are usually that of some calamity a person faced (in their previous life or lives). These events are corroborated in person.
Quick example: My aunt's friend is an astrophysicist at NASA. His wife was delusional for many years and he was very concerned. They are devout Catholics so they don't believe in reincarnation etc. My aunt suggested they go see a hypnotist who is known for doing hypnotic regressions. They resisted at first but somehow this man convinced his wife of attending one session. Long story short, it turned out that this woman was a Polish soldier in WWII and she was brutally murdered by the Nazis from Germany when they invaded Poland. The mental trauma she underwent apparently followed her, one can say due to her Karma, into this life. The moment she tapped into this "realization", the wife awoke and she was "cured" so to speak. How is this possible?
If a devout Hindu came running to you and said, "Reincarnation is the truth" you might laugh and then give a huge, "meh". When there are so many mutually exclusive pointers to this phenomenon, it is disingenuous to just ignore it. The least one can do is to research and read up on it more.
And you are right as far as people who have not risen above this basic level of consciousness; we cannot experience the unity consciousness and thus we are ignorant to many things including knowledge of our past lives etc.
Read Fritjof Capra's "The Tao of Physics" for another mutually exclusive pointer regarding this topic.
B: Yet, when this apparent creation takes place, all the manifestations are NOT equal. That is why the "soul" in manifested beings is called "jivatma".
M: I just don't follow what you mean here. What are some manifestations and why are they not equal? Maybe you are saying that everybody isn't on the same plane of spiritual evolution, right?
Let me illustrate this principle with another analogy:
Let us say Joe the Plumber is an adult male. I think that's what he was last time I checked! LOL!
He is a son to his parents. He is a husband to his wife. He is a father to his children. He is a colleague to his colleagues. He is a business-owner to the community. He is a law-abiding citizen to law-enforcement. He is a dumbass to Democrats. He is the ideal "American" to the Tea Party people.
How can "one" man be so many at the same time? These are roles, yes, but they are manifestations of his energy/person/intellect/personality etc. that fit different situations, people, places, and times.
Can we dare say that God or whatever you want to call it, is more limited than Joe the Plumber?
God, according to the Vedas, is infinite; thus, his manifestations are infinite and the multiplicity we see around us is the potency of the Supreme. Yet, each "role" or manifestation is not the "same", meaning the purpose, role, and causality are all different. The essence of the "roles" (ie manifestations) are the same but the actual "roles" are not. That is the key.
If we use science and go into the atomic scale, we can say that a wooden table or a wooden chair are ultimately the "same" (ie made up of the same combinations of atomic elements in varying quantities perhaps). Yet, the table and the chair are NOT the same in that their purpose and roles are different.
B: Since the manifestations are not the "same", during this "creation", we see the multiplicity of that Supreme creative intelligence (Prakriti). Once the veil of ignorance (Avidya) is removed, we see the undifferentiated consciousness and thus become "Self-realized" or EXPERIENCE the "unity consciousness".
M: Not sure what this means if not lots of folk at different levels of spiritual revelation and a few who know the truth.
Essentially, to an enlightened person, a mound of dirt and a gold bar are one and the same. To those of us who are still conditioned by the "world" we live in, they are not. A famous example in one of the Upanishads is that the molten gold can form into a bracelet, necklace, or other ornament but at its fundamental level, it is still gold. They all have different roles to play, as mentioned above, but they are still "one" so to speak.
B: With regards to daily life and traditions/habits etc., since in this "dream" of creation not everything is the same, we cannot treat it as such; we simply do not have that ability until the ego ceases to exist.
M: I get this but why set a precedent of avoiding the poorly evolved because you yourself are poorly evolved. It sets up an excuse for personal failure. I can't have any contact with 'bad' people because I'm too weak and evolved, but someday, in a million years, I will be.
In order to evolve oneself, we must have the right surroundings and company. This is the only reason some people are shunned. This, actually, became the bane of Indian society in the last century due to misinterpretation and misapplication of Varnashrama Dharma (caste).
An example would be if you're trying to study for your exams and your roommate blasts his music really loudly, you will most likely seek a quieter place. In case of spiritual practice (Sadhana), a calm, clean, and disciplined lifestyle is required. This is another reason for vegetarianism for many Hindus. Eating meat is very detrimental to spiritual progression due to another topic that is beyond the scope of this thread.
B: Plus, all these "things", people etc. have their own purpose and reason for being here. It is like saying a banana is made of atoms and so is a steaming pile of shit, so we can eat both and we will be okay! That would be absurd right? But at the atomic level, and at the level of consciousness, not just everyone, but everything is that one Supreme Being (Brahman).
M: But isn't this just stoking the ego, saying 'I an fit to determine this or that person's real purpose and relative shitiness'?
Not sure what you mean here. I meant that in order to live a disciplined life that leads towards Self-realization, one must make distinctions and live in accordance to the Shastras (scriptures).
B: This is why Hindus see everything and everyone as "sacred". This is the reason for "Namaste" - "The Supreme in me bows to the Supreme in you".
M: Nice, but how are you going to bow to folk you want to avoid? It sounds hypocritical to me. Jesus collected such folk as a matter of course, and was crucified with criminals. Are you saying that's just because he was enlightened and didn't want to set an example for others to follow?
LOL.. we don't meet the folk we want to avoid! hahah..
But seriously, those who are realized make no distinctions at all. In fact, Shankara, a famous Hindu saint in the 8th century, prostrated in front of an "untouchable"; something unheard of even today since he was not only enlightened, but a Brahmin of the highest order.
B: Sanatana Dharma is extremely complex and that is why there are various paths, traditions, and seemingly contradictory philosophies lumped together; it is NOT a 'one-size fits all' religion. Depending on each person's spiritual and intellectual maturity, there are paths available to realize the goal.
M: This is a profound truth in my opinion in a world chuck full of only religions.
Indeed. And all the credit goes to the seers/sages of ancient India for transcending the mind and experiencing the nature of reality.
B: A man who meditates on Shiva in a cave in the Himalayas is considered a Hindu and a man who meditates on a corpse on the bank of the Ganges is also considered a Hindu. There is no "best" path. There is only the "best path for you"!
M: But is this something you or a wise teacher decides? What if such a teacher says sleep with prostitutes. I think that the path that is proper for each person is dependent on where he is blind and the blind have no idea where they are blind. But, if we are not enlightened, in my opinion, then we are blind somewhere.
Well, it doesn't quite work that way since there is no "school" you can sign up for and say, "Hey, I want a warm cup of enlightenment!" The teacher (guru) will find you once you are ready. And the path that you take is dependent on many things like your vasanas (latent tendencies), Karma, grace of God (anugraha) etc. So I have no idea whether banging hoes will make you Self-realized. If it does, let me know!