Should Michael Sam Sue the NFL?

[Fern]

-snip-
And in this case, we are talking about the best defensive player in arguably the best defensive conference.

Uhh no. Just no.

Fern

 

[Childs]

Uhh no. Just no.

Fern

Its an subjective label, but in objective terms he has that honor. I dont necessarily want to look up how the SEC defines it, but when you look at the list of previous winners, its hard to say that they weren't the best defensive players in their conferences. At least not to the extent that anyone would argue against it that much.

 

[Svnla]

hahaha...you think I have Sam's phone number? Unfortunately I dont have his number.

It was a metaphor.

As I said, you do not know why Sam did not make the cut at the NFL or why he left the CFL, I do not know, no one in this thread knows, no one knows. Only Sam knows why but he ain't talking much.

The bottom line is he was worse the second time around at the NFL camp and that's not how to compete at the highest level with so many other guys that were more hungry and more dedicated. See what Fern said in post 96.

In rare instances an undrafted or low-drafted player will blossom late or improve through force of will and hard work. Some guys just don't have the 'measurables' but CAN play. However he's had his chances/opportunities to prove himself and failed.

I remember Jason Taylor was from a small school (Akron), was not huge or super strong, did not get draft until late round (73rd overall) but was able to become a starter for Dolphins for several years and was selected to Pro Bowl several times, was a Defensive Play of The Year several times and so on. By your logic, Mid American Conference is superior than the SEC because just one player, right? LOL.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Michael Sam "stepped away" from his job on the Allouttes. That is another way of saying they cut him from the team, or he left knowing he was to be cut. For those who don't remember, Sam became the first openly gay man to try out for the NFL. He was drafted by the St Louis Rams in 2014 which was as big news for any player coming out of college that year. Sam didn't make the cut, and was then picked up by Dallas Cowboys, who put him on their practice squad until he was cut.

So is this a case of discrimination? Should he sue to be on an NFL team? Quotas anyone? Employees are asked to document their racial status. Should they be asked their sexual preference? What about asking one's gender identity?

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSto...ettes-33095452

You are making false assumption based on what you think is not being said!! Move along peeps!! There is no story here.....

 

[Childs]

I remember Jason Taylor was from a small school (Akron) but he was able to become a starter for Dolphins for several years. By your logic, Mid American Conference is superior than the SEC because just one player, right? LOL.

Wha? I'm not saying that at all. No wonder you keep posting the way you do. What I am saying is more like every MAC DPOY for the last 10-15 years not only made the NFL, but had multiple all pro seasons and played in the NFL for 10+ years. So this years MAC DPOY more than likely will make the NFL, and play at a high level. Its not rocket science.

You seem to be under the impression that I said the SEC sucks because of Sam. I said the opposite, he should be in the NFL because he was the SEC DPOY. One reason he could be both the SEC DPOY and not be good enough to make the NFL is the SEC dropped off so much that the SEC DPOY doesnt mean anything. But what makes more sense to you, given that you imply passively aggressively that the SEC is the best, and also state you and me both dont know why he didnt make it. What else is there, that we know for sure?

 

[Svnla]

Wha? I'm not saying that at all. No wonder you keep posting the way you do. What I am saying is more like every MAC DPOY for the last 10-15 years not only made the NFL, but had multiple all pro seasons and played in the NFL for 10+ years. So this years MAC DPOY more than likely will make the NFL, and play at a high level. Its not rocket science.

You seem to be under the impression that I said the SEC sucks because of Sam. I said the opposite, he should be in the NFL because he was the SEC DPOY. One reason he could be both the SEC DPOY and not be good enough to make the NFL is the SEC dropped off so much that the SEC DPOY doesnt mean anything. But what makes more sense to you, given that you imply passively aggressively that the SEC is the best, and also state you and me both dont know why he didnt make it. What else is there, that we know for sure?

Again, in your own words, you say (explicitly) the Pac12 is superior and the SEC is average/mediocrity. Is that true, Yes or No?


Let get it straight before I waste more time with you.

 

[Childs]

Again, in your own words, you say (explicitly) the Pac12 is superior and the SEC is average/mediocrity. Is that true, Yes or No?


Let get it straight before I waste more time with you.

lol, yes, I said that, when we were talking about Jamarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf. Maybe you need a refresher to see the context:

Originally Posted by Svnla
Speaking of the Raiders, they are still weeping about Russel from LSU. Now that is a BIG bust (pun intend) How big he is now? 300 lbs and climbing?

Russell was from the SEC...thats how I know its a mediocre conference! I actually forgot he was even a Raider. So many people that should be difference makers come to the Raiders and disappear into the black hole, then leave Oakland and become relevant again.

And on Ryan Leaf as proof of the Pac12 superiority:

And if Leaf is not considered as big a bust as Russell, thats only because Leaf had higher expectations because he came from a superior conference! Leaf's biggest crime is that he's a POS human being. Besides, if I was a GM I couldn't do any worse than picking either one of those QBs. In my book thats proof that I wouldn't be any worse at drafting players.

Read those again, slowly. Does that read a little differently now?

 

[Svnla]

lol, yes, I said that, when we were talking about Jamarcus Russell and the Raiders. Maybe you need a refresher to see the context:



Read it again, slowly. Does that read a little differently now?

You started to bash the SEC way back in post 13. See the "it has to be"?

And since I'm in Pac-12 country, if its wasn't because he was gay and somewhat of an attention seeker, it has to be because the SEC is overrated.

Learn how to read your own words (post 19). I did not mention Russel until post 20. Keep digging deeper, slowly to sink yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svnla View Post
You are talking about 1 player out of several hundreds. You can give Sam a call and ask him the reason(s) why he could not even make the roster even he was a DPOY.
And that one player just happened to be openly gay...

Quote:
As I already posted, the data from the NFL speaks for itself. SEC has the largest number of players being picked for 9 years in a row and what a player did in college is not a sure bet that he will do the same in the pro.

If you think you can do better than those pro scouts and GMs, give them a call.
I think I could do just as good a job. How many players are busts? How many don't earn their contracts. How many coaches get hired who don't have a clue? As a Raiders fan I can tell you not everyone in the NFL knows what they are doing.

What most people should be able to reason is that if a player was deemed the best player in the "best" conference, he should be able to at least make one NFL team roster, or be able to stay on someone's practice squad for at least a season. Especially the best defensive player in the "best" defensive conference. Again, you can't have it both ways! If you're going to use the stats, then use the stats. If the SEC is the "best" conference, then that should mean something. Or is it a statistical oddity that neither apply and its a coincidence that the one person it doesn't apply to is openly gay?

A reasonable assumption is he didn't make it because he's gay. Maybe he's simply an average player, from an average conference (yeah I'm still saying it!), but between two average prospects, management would rather not deal with the scrutiny associated with having the first openly gay player. Now, if he was Aaron Rodgers, and everyone knew he was going to be the Aaron Rodgers we know, then its worth dealing with the hassle.

 

[Childs]

Learn how to read your own words (post 19).

Notice how didnt bold the full sentence:

Maybe he's simply an average player, from an average conference (yeah I'm still saying it!), but between two average prospects, management would rather not deal with the scrutiny associated with having the first openly gay player. Now, if he was Aaron Rodgers, and everyone knew he was going to be the Aaron Rodgers we know, then its worth dealing with the hassle.

So what? Maybe he was average, and that implies the conference he was DPOY of was average. Did an SEC team win the national title that year? Nope. Did Auburn shut down FSU in the title game? Nope. Did the Alabama shut down Ohio State defensively in the playoffs this year? Nope. One logical conclusion is the SEC isnt what we thought it was, which could explain why their DPOY couldnt make the NFL.

And if you're going to quote my post, quote it right:

What most people should be able to reason is that if a player was deemed the best player in the "best" conference, he should be able to at least make one NFL team roster, or be able to stay on someone's practice squad for at least a season. Especially the best defensive player in the "best" defensive conference. Again, you can't have it both ways! If you're going to use the stats, then use the stats. If the SEC is the "best" conference, then that should mean something. Or is it a statistical oddity that neither apply and its a coincidence that the one person it doesn't apply to is openly gay?

I'm fairly consistent on this.

 

[Svnla]

Notice how didnt bold the full sentence:



So what? Maybe he was average, and that implies the conference he was DPOY of was average. Did an SEC team win the national title that year? Nope. Did Auburn shut down FSU in the title game? Nope. Did the Alabama shut down Ohio State defensively in the playoffs this year? Nope. One logical conclusion is the SEC isnt what we thought it was, which could explain why their DPOY couldnt make the NFL.

Dude, if you are going to debate with me, don't lie. Since you LIED several times, I have no further use for you. See my edit above with post 13 from you. See the explicitly words of "it has to be" as fact? You started bashing the SEC way before I said anything about Russel in post 20. Liar!!!

 

[Childs]

Dude, if you are going to debate with me, don't lie. Since you LIED several times, I have no further use for you. See my edit above with post 13 from you. See the explicitly words of "it has to be"? You started bashing the SEC way before I said anything about Russel in post 20. Liar!!!

You have no sense of sarcasm do you. Did the reason for my statement "And because I'm in Pac12 country" not clue you in? Or do you believe living in an region and sitting at a PC posting on a forum somehow makes the football better? :biggrin:

Since were doing this lets go earlier:

post 5:

Seems strange that an SEC Defensive Player of the Year couldnt make an NFL team

post 13, an the good part, not cherry picked to try to make yourself look better:

Sam is the only SEC DPOY in the last decade to have not been picked in the first two rounds, and I think the only one to not make a roster. I'm not saying he should have been picked earlier or even made an NFL roster, but its curious how DPOY in one of the best conferences could not make an NFL roster. QB's like Tebow and Couch at least made rosters multiple times.

Now put both parts of post 13 together. Read it slow. Does that read differently?

 

[Phoenix86]

This is one of the dumber threads I have seen recently, impressive.

 

[purbeast0]

This is one of the dumber threads I have seen recently, impressive.

i can't believe someone thinks just because someone is labeled in college the DPOY (can't believe how many times i've read "DPOY" in this thread) means they automatically make a 53 man NFL roster, regardless of anything else other than having that label.

 

[Phoenix86]

i can't believe someone thinks just because someone is labeled in college the DPOY (can't believe how many times i've read "DPOY" in this thread) means they automatically make a 53 man NFL roster, regardless of anything else other than having that label.

It's just a stupid as saying undrafted players can't make the NFL. With the number of teams that gave Sam a fair shake one of them would have taken him if he showed anything special.

He busted out of the CFL, that ought to tell you all you need to know.

OP is whole garage full of tools for making this thread.

 

[Childs]

i can't believe someone thinks just because someone is labeled in college the DPOY (can't believe how many times i've read "DPOY" in this thread) means they automatically make a 53 man NFL roster, regardless of anything else other than having that label.

I can't believe someone who has seen proof that every DPOY (sorry, but I'm not writing that out!) from every major conference for at least the last 10 years has been able to make a roster, except the one we are talking about. The label means the guy can play. Guys with that label have always have been good enough to at least make a roster for a season.

Take his sexuality out of it...dont you think thats odd enough to question?

It's just a stupid as saying undrafted players can't make the NFL. With the number of teams that gave Sam a fair shake one of them would have taken him if he showed anything special.

Its not the same thing at all. If anything, thats worse because a player with no recognition among his peers was able to make it above someone generally thought of to be good enough to be DPOY. You expect hidden gems because you cant draft everyone, and you cant scout everyone. I would expect undrafted players to make it, as well as DPOY, OPOY (new acronym for some variety), and other achievement award winners. At least for one season.

 

[Svnla]

You have no sense of sarcasm do you. Did the reason for my statement "And because I'm in Pac12 country" not clue you in? Or do you believe living in an region and sitting at a PC posting on a forum somehow makes the football better? :biggrin:

Since were doing this lets go earlier:

post 5:



post 13, an the good part, not cherry picked to try to make yourself look better:



Now put both parts of post 13 together. Read it slow. Does that read differently?

Are you freaking for real? Here is what you wrote, don't try to back track.

Here is your WHOLE post (post 13). See how you bashed the SEC (HAS TO BE - as "for sure", "beyond any doubt", as "fact") because of 1 SINGLE PLAYER!!! Even posts after posts from myself and other posters along with links from pro sports writes said college awards DO NOT MEAN ANYTHING in NFL!!!!

Sam is the only SEC DPOY in the last decade to have not been picked in the first two rounds, and I think the only one to not make a roster. I'm not saying he should have been picked earlier or even made an NFL roster, but its curious how DPOY in one of the best conferences could not make an NFL roster. QB's like Tebow and Couch at least made rosters multiple times.

And since I'm in Pac-12 country, if its wasn't because he was gay and somewhat of an attention seeker, it has to be because the SEC is overrated.

Then you rant on and on about how you could run neck and neck with NFL GMs and more of you bullshit such as the Pac12 is superior and SEC is just average/mediocrity while the SEC has more players being draft into the NFL than EVERY conference, even the "SUPERIOR" Pac12 FOR 9 FREAKING STRAIGHT YEARS!!! along with so many other stats that the SEC is better than the Pac12 (from numerous links I posted above).

Keep digging. See how Fern, Ban Bot, Smash, PureBeast, and others said already. None of them agree with you. Good grief and get a clue.

 

[Childs]

Are you freaking for real? Here is what you wrote.

Here is your WHOLE post (post 13). See how you bashed the SEC (HAS TO BE).




Then you rant on and on about how you could run neck and neck with NFL GMs and more of you bullshit.

Keep digging. See how Fern, Ban Bot, Smash, and others said already.

OMG, lets do this again:

Originally Posted by Childs View Post
Sam is the only SEC DPOY in the last decade to have not been picked in the first two rounds, and I think the only one to not make a roster. I'm not saying he should have been picked earlier or even made an NFL roster, but its curious how DPOY in one of the best conferences could not make an NFL roster. QB's like Tebow and Couch at least made rosters multiple times.

And since I'm in Pac-12 country, if its wasn't because he was gay and somewhat of an attention seeker, it has to be because the SEC is overrated.

In the post you quoted:

You have no sense of sarcasm do you. Did the reason for my statement "And because I'm in Pac12 country" not clue you in? Or do you believe living in an region and sitting at a PC posting on a forum somehow makes the football better?

Or do you really believe because where you live, and no one else, effects how football is played? Granted, the reason the Giants and Warriors are champs is because of me, but it doesnt seem to work too well with football.

Then you rant on and on about how you could run neck and neck with NFL GMs and more of you bullshit.

hahaha You're really reaching for anything aren't ya? Here's your word for the day: hyperbole

 

[purbeast0]

I can't believe someone who has seen proof that every DPOY (sorry, but I'm not writing that out!) from every major conference for at least the last 10 years has been able to make a roster, except the one we are talking about. The label means the guy can play. Guys with that label have always have been good enough to at least make a roster for a season.

Take his sexuality out of it...dont you think thats odd enough to question?

no ... not at all. if he was good enough for an NFL roster, he would be on the team. are you new to football or something? teams will do ANYTHING to win games, including trying to cheat.

the label means he can play ... IN COLLEGE. it doesn't mean dick about what he can and can't do in the NFL.

check out the heismann trophy winners here, and this is for the entire NCAA not just 1 division.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Heisman_Trophy_winners

who the fuck is jason white?

 

[Svnla]

no ... not at all. if he was good enough for an NFL roster, he would be on the team. are you new to football or something? teams will do ANYTHING to win games, including trying to cheat.

the label means he can play ... IN COLLEGE. it doesn't mean dick about what he can and can't do in the NFL.

check out the heismann trophy winners here, and this is for the entire NCAA not just 1 division.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Heisman_Trophy_winners

who the fuck is jason white?

I wish you a lot of luck to talk some sense into that fool. I already provided links after links about how awards in college mean nothing in the NFL. Watch how he will wear you down with more of his bullshit and crap.

 

[Childs]

no ... not at all. if he was good enough for an NFL roster, he would be on the team. are you new to football or something? teams will do ANYTHING to win games, including trying to cheat.

the label means he can play ... IN COLLEGE. it doesn't mean dick about what he can and can't do in the NFL.

check out the heismann trophy winners here, and this is for the entire NCAA not just 1 division.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Heisman_Trophy_winners

You would think there would be more precedence for Heisman Trophy QB winners because they generally run more and run gimmick offenses, but we are talking about 1 QB*. The other two: Dawkins chose the military, in 1958, and Charlie Ward chose the NBA. You have to go back to the 60's to find players that I haven't heard of, but it seems even most of those guys made the NFL.

who the fuck is jason white?

haha the one QB. Now I'm not going to use this in my argument, but he was signed by the Titans, but retired due to bad knees

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2131507

I remember him at Oklahoma. He was a running QB, and probably would have been better suited for the NFL now than he was then. His stock also dropped after losing back to back title games, including getting crushed by USC. He also had a history of bad knees, requiring multiple surgeries. Interesting, Jeff Fisher was the Titans coach, and again he said he could play in the NFL if he didnt retire. That might just be Fisher sending him out with dignity.

Anyways, to not get bogged down in minutia, he did not make it. I dont know how far to go back, but thats still just 1 Heisman trophy winner since 1960 that didnt make an NFL team. One guy in 55 years. I feel confident in saying in general, Heisman trophy winners make the NFL. I didnt say they were going to be all pros, or even any good, but they make it. And I was specifically talking about DPOYs, from the last 10-15 years, the modern era.

I could understand if something came out about Sam being a jerk in the locker room or some off the field issues, but we are not really hearing that. I simply cannot believe a player even considered to be SEC DPOY is not good enough to make the NFL, without some other factor being the cause.

The only thing that kinda makes sense, and is football related, is Fern questioning why he was DPOY in the first place. If he wasn't a legitimate DPOY that obviously changes everything, but since he won the award, I assume he earned it.

 

[Imported]

Why can't you believe he just isn't good enough to stay in the NFL? He was given a shot in the NFL. He was drafted. He was signed. He just failed to impress. He was given another shot. Failed again. Did worse at his second combine and failed to get any renewed interest. Failed in the CFL. He had one good season at Missouri.

 

[Childs]

Why can't you believe he just isn't good enough to stay in the NFL? He was given a shot in the NFL. He was drafted. He was signed. He just failed to impress. He was given another shot. Failed again. Did worse at his second combine and failed to get any renewed interest. Failed in the CFL. He had one good season at Missouri.

I have a hard time believing it because he was the SEC DPOY. Not MAC or Big Sky DPOY, but SEC. And he was drafted, but I dont think he was even signed, other than to Dallas's practice squad. I simply find it more plausible that there were other factors than his ability on the field. Lots of guys dont make it based on ability alone, especially if they are simply good enough, and not great.

And its not that he isnt good enough to stay in the NFL, he never really made it in the first place. If he was signed and then say cut half way through the season, thats a fairly significant difference in my mind.

 

[Genx87]

I have a hard time believing it because he was the SEC DPOY. Not MAC or Big Sky DPOY, but SEC. And he was drafted, but I dont think he was even signed, other than to Dallas's practice squad. I simply find it more plausible that there were other factors than his ability on the field. Lots of guys dont make it based on ability alone, especially if they are simply good enough, and not great.

And its not that he isnt good enough to stay in the NFL, he never really made it in the first place. If he was signed and then say cut half way through the season, thats a fairly significant difference in my mind.

Well start believing it then. Sam isn't coming back to the NFL because he isn't good enough to even make it in the CFL.

 

[Chryso]

I would be more likely to think that Sam's selection as DPOY had a bit more to do with his being gay than his play on the field.

 

[Imported]

I would be more likely to think that Sam's selection as DPOY had a bit more to do with his being gay than his play on the field.

It had more to do with his teammate, Kony Ealy, getting double teamed on nearly every play.