Should states ban trans athletes from competing?

[Zorba]

I prefer each sports association to make that determination themselves along with the input from the athletes themselves.

This is basically where I am at. I think there are some sports that it's fine after enough time on hormone therapy. There are other sports where it isn't fine. And the biggest problem is if a trans girl wins, everyone will say it's because she is trans, regardless of if that is true.

I also think people are absolutely psycho about sports and there will be some people that will transition just to get a scholarship or get on the national team, or just to have a better shot. I think that would obviously be rare, but I do think it would happen. Just like some high schoolers dope or drop out of high school to play on traveling teams.

ETA: I absolutely don't think the state should be involved. The only reason states are attempting to be involved is republicans think it'll turn out their shithead base.

 

[DaaQ]

This is basically where I am at. I think there are some sports that it's fine after enough time on hormone therapy. There are other sports where it isn't fine. And the biggest problem is if a trans girl wins, everyone will say it's because she is trans, regardless of if that is true.

I also think people are absolutely psycho about sports and there will be some people that will transition just to get a scholarship or get on the national team, or just to have a better shot. I think that would obviously be rare, but I do think it would happen. Just like some high schoolers dope or drop out of high school to play on traveling teams.

Ok you are talking about Cartman and the Special Olympics.


Whereas others are talking about PC Strong Woman and MachoMan Tina.

 

[Zorba]

Meh. This state can be terribly backwards, and rural regions are given way too much influence in the state politics.

It is funny though, how genetic differences that give you testicles are being given so much importance, while genetic differences that give you larger muscles or better coordination are completely ignored. Suppose it's because those benefiting from those can attribute it to hard work, and admitting genes make a difference would damage egos.

Go research Title 9, seriously.

Women can not compete with men in nearly any sport, period. It has nothing to do with egos or testicles. The equivalent trained man will beat a woman in the same sport nearly every time, the only exception I know of is mega endurance running where the gap is much smaller.

 

[Zorba]

Ok you are talking about Cartman and the Special Olympics.


Whereas others are talking about PC Strong Woman and MachoMan Tina.

I really don't know any of those references. I mean I know Cartman, but not the specific reference.

 

[Zorba]

I've long supported that everything should go in sports. full-doping, chopping off limbs just to run faster, competing as transgender, whatever. who the fuck gives a fuck?

It's just sports, and sports is really dumb. I love sports, but that doesn't mean sports isn't stupid. Let them all have at each other to the full ability of human ingenuity. I don't know why we desperately cling to this myth of "fair." No one really gives a shit in the end. We just want to see humans or semi-humans (can't wait for the cybernetics starting to be a thing) performing against each other at the peak of physical and technological ability.

So you'd be fine with 5 year-old doping? Because that is exactly what that world would lead to. "If they don't start now, they'll never get a scholarship." Just like tons of people "redshirt" their 5 year-olds so they will have a better shot at being all stars in high school sports.

 

[Zorba]

Answer: who gives a shit

The vast majority of the population cares about sports, even if you don't. 50 years ago we decided that woman should be allowed opportunities to compete and we passed Title 9. So I'm guessing a large chunk of the population cares about women's sports, even if they might disagree if trans-women in sports is a big deal. Roughly 40% of the female youth population regularly plays a sport, so again, I think a lot of people care.

 

[nickqt]

What about your completely androgen insensitive XYs? Phenotypical females but XY.

Just being nitpick to underscore how difficult it can be to appreciate all cases when making rules. I agree with others that we should probably just leave it up to the individual associations.

I appreciate the nitpick as I can clarify my "simple fix".

That's the simple thing about my measurable "system", that person still has 2 options where their sports eligibility is funded through taxes (the crux of the issue and why it's even "political" at all).

Try out for XY Division. Can't make it?

Try out for Co-Ed Division. Can't make it?

Find another non-taxpayer funded sports association, hence open to anyone and everyone, and not at all eligible for political legislation/debate. Done and done.

(Let's be clear here, if you can't make the XY Division or Co-Ed Division as an XY, you're probably not "good enough" to make the XX Division either, as the XX Division isn't "inferior" to the XY or Co-Ed Divisions. XX athletes who "make the cut" are at the top of their Divisions and saying that a "weak" XY is comparable to a XX "athlete" is arguably sexist on its face, not that I'm saying you are anyone else is making that argument).

The "problem" continues being solved without tossing another red meat issue to the deplorables who are only using the issue to recruit people to murder liberals in their sleep (that's the real endgame with all of this, don't miss the forest for the trees, etc.).

This "issue" is about as important as my favorite brand of deodorant or some random person's favorite color. Making it a whole "thing" is exactly what the right-wing authoritarians want, and we can have a simple "workaround" that can avoid it being another division that peels away "sane" people to the side of fascists.

I understand that there can be "sides" and discussions and reasoning for 200 ways to split up athletes into various divisions, but as catastrophic collapse continues snowballing, I'm more interested in putting out some inconsequential ember so we can focus on the planet-encompassing fire.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Women can not compete with men in nearly any sport, period. It has nothing to do with egos or testicles. The equivalent trained man will beat a woman in the same sport nearly every time, the only exception I know of is mega endurance running where the gap is much smaller.

That same truth can be asserted about the difference between athletically gifted men, and non-athletically gifted men. Yet, we allow those two groups to compete between each other with barely a second thought. I'm fine admitting gender differences exist. I am, however, unwilling to pretend that genetic differences in between members of the same gender have don't have every bit as much effect as gender differences.

 

[zinfamous]

So you'd be fine with 5 year-old doping? Because that is exactly what that world would lead to. "If they don't start now, they'll never get a scholarship." Just like tons of people "redshirt" their 5 year-olds so they will have a better shot at being all stars in high school sports.

let the glorious market decide! praise be to MAMON!



seriously, that's what this country worships.

lol that you think we actually care about sports. hahahahahaha

 

[Brovane]

This is basically where I am at. I think there are some sports that it's fine after enough time on hormone therapy. There are other sports where it isn't fine. And the biggest problem is if a trans girl wins, everyone will say it's because she is trans, regardless of if that is true.

I also think people are absolutely psycho about sports and there will be some people that will transition just to get a scholarship or get on the national team, or just to have a better shot. I think that would obviously be rare, but I do think it would happen. Just like some high schoolers dope or drop out of high school to play on traveling teams.

ETA: I absolutely don't think the state should be involved. The only reason states are attempting to be involved is republicans think it'll turn out their shithead base.

Is there a documented example of a MTF transition with someone going through several years of hormone therapy to just win at sports? Also remember that same person would have to fool all the medical professionals that they actually have gender dysphoria so they could get the hormone therapy drugs to start the transition.

 

[Zorba]

That same truth can be asserted about the difference between athletically gifted men, and non-athletically gifted men. Yet, we allow those two groups to compete between each other with barely a second thought. I'm fine admitting gender differences exist. I am, however, unwilling to pretend that genetic differences in between members of the same gender have don't have every bit as much effect as gender differences.

There is no woman that can compete against top men in any major sport, period.

Obviously you really don't know much about sports, because every sport has a ton of different levels and the not so good people can play in lower divisions. I can go out right now and join a male softball league where I'd be one of the best players, even though I could never make it into the MLB.

Co-Ed sports don't work though, because the women will nearly always be dominated by the men. 50 years ago we as a society decided women should have a chance to compete in sports and passed Title 9. Most PRO female tennis players would loss against decent HS boys. Many high school boys can break every women's track and field world record. The differences are not even comparable to just normal genetic variation in males.

 

[Zorba]

let the glorious market decide! praise be to MAMON!



seriously, that's what this country worships.

lol that you think we actually care about sports. hahahahahaha

I never said you cared about sports, I was asking if you cared about the health of thousands of kids that will never make it in sports but will inject themselves from a very early age in an attempt to compete.

 

[Zorba]

Is there a documented example of a MTF transition with someone going through several years of hormone therapy to just win at sports? Also remember that same person would have to fool all the medical professionals that they actually have gender dysphoria so they could get the hormone therapy drugs to start the transition.

I do not know of one but I've never looked either. I doubt anyone would really admit it and it's a pretty recent thing, at least for it be done openly.

But I've seen what people are willing to do in sports and I believe there are people that would be willing to do it. Just like there was this famous biker that gave himself cancer from doping and had his nut cut out, and then he continued doping, and not just doping, but lead a massive conspiracy to keep it secret and rune people's lives that tried to expose him.

Again, I think it would happen, but I don't think that is reason to ban it. I do think it is a reason to have very specific requirements, though, as decided by the sports association.

ETA: If the requirements prove to be right, transitioning won't actually be much of an advantage so then there would be no reason to. But if you look at Lia Thomas, she went from a nobody in men's to winning a national title in womens. That is a lot of incentive for someone who's entire life focus is on a sport.

 

[compcons]

I do like me some big government dictating all aspects of life instead of letting the individual sports authorities deciding what is appropriate.

But only if it's stuff I want them to control. Othwrwise I prefer them to stay out of my business.

Man, conservatism hurts my head!!!

 

[Brovane]

I do not know of one but I've never looked either. I doubt anyone would really admit it and it's a pretty recent thing, at least for it be done openly.

But I've seen what people are willing to do in sports and I believe there are people that would be willing to do it. Just like there was this famous biker that gave himself cancer from doping and had his nut cut out, and then he continued doping, and not just doping, but lead a massive conspiracy to keep it secret and rune people's lives that tried to expose him.

Again, I think it would happen, but I don't think that is reason to ban it. I do think it is a reason to have very specific requirements, though, as decided by the sports association.

ETA: If the requirements prove to be right, transitioning won't actually be much of an advantage so then there would be no reason to. But if you look at Lia Thomas, she went from a nobody in men's to winning a national title in womens. That is a lot of incentive for someone who's entire life focus is on a sport.

Certain press organizations like to create the narrative that Lia Thomas was a "nobody" in swimming until she transitioned. You don't become a Division 1 swimmer and get a scholarship by being slow in the water. As a freshman Thomas, was ranked 6th nationally in the 1,000 yard free, swimming as a male. Thomas when swimming as a male was breaking records already. However most swimmers are nobodies even at NCAA Division 1 level unless they get to the Olympics. Even then, most Olympians are a nobody unless they actually get on the Podium to people outside of the sport. I think a lot of people would struggle to name the other years national champions in the woman's 500 yard free for NCAA DIV 1. However we all know this years winner. Even then, Thomas's winning time in the 500 yard free wasn't all that fast. The time ranks her 25th on the fastest performances for 500 yard free for woman. Thomas got attention because she transitioned, and the press made a big deal of it. The press doesn't really mention that Thomas placed 5th in the 200 yard free and 8th in the 100 yard free at the same meet.

I would agree with you on the specific requirements. Thomas had several years of hormone therapy before swimming as a woman her last year of eligibility in College. Thomas went from swimming a 4:18 as a male in 2019 in the 500 yard free to 4:33 as a woman. What is wrong is in high school there is certain states that allow a person to compete as a woman if they identify as a woman without having any hormone therapy.

 

[Greenman]

That’s exactly what the Lia Thomas story was. As a male swimmer average to slightly above average. As a woman record smasher

Doesn’t sound fair to me

It's not fair at all. There is a reason for having men's and women's sports. Allowing transgender men to compete against women demeans the effort the female athletes put in to be the best.

 

[Zorba]

Certain press organizations like to create the narrative that Lia Thomas was a "nobody" in swimming until she transitioned. You don't become a Division 1 swimmer and get a scholarship by being slow in the water. As a freshman Thomas, was ranked 6th nationally in the 1,000 yard free, swimming as a male. Thomas when swimming as a male was breaking records already. However most swimmers are nobodies even at NCAA Division 1 level unless they get to the Olympics. Even then, most Olympians are a nobody unless they actually get on the Podium to people outside of the sport. I think a lot of people would struggle to name the other years national champions in the woman's 500 yard free for NCAA DIV 1. However we all know this years winner. Even then, Thomas's winning time in the 500 yard free wasn't all that fast. The time ranks her 25th on the fastest performances for 500 yard free for woman. Thomas got attention because she transitioned, and the press made a big deal of it. The press doesn't really mention that Thomas placed 5th in the 200 yard free and 8th in the 100 yard free at the same meet.

I would agree with you on the specific requirements. Thomas had several years of hormone therapy before swimming as a woman her last year of eligibility in College. Thomas went from swimming a 4:18 as a male in 2019 in the 500 yard free to 4:33 as a woman. What is wrong is in high school there is certain states that allow a person to compete as a woman if they identify as a woman without having any hormone therapy.

I agree with you. My nobody comment was based on this "In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle."

Obviously, being #32 in D1 is very impressive but probably isn't much of a threat of winning a title or making the national team. Just like the #32 D1 QB is still an amazing athlete, but is still pretty much a nobody in the sport overall.

But, I think Lia Thomas does show the rules can work. So there is no need for an outright ban.

 

[ivwshane]

It's not fair at all. There is a reason for having men's and women's sports. Allowing transgender men to compete against women demeans the effort the female athletes put in to be the best.

You speak for all women athletes now do you? No? Then how many share your opinion?

 

[cytg111]

I have first hand experience with a couple of social groups that has a total of four male trans peeps, there is pretty much unanimous consensus here that this thing would be unfair - and to be fair it would need a separate division, something. Its also consensus that its a much bigger topic for bigoted morons than it is for anyone they themselves know in the culture.

Yes there is gonna be singular cases of power lifting trans that smashes the competition and insists on doing it on camera and thus fuels the hate of the Tuckers of the world. But Tuckers would hate anyway, whatever is broken inside them wont be fixed by a “dont say gay” bill.

So, blackangst, this weighs on your mind a lot, is it really a pressing matter that threatens to tear the fabric of reality and doom your world to the fiery pits of hell?

 

[sportage]

The trans world is something I fail to grasp. Nothing against them, and I don't associate being transgender to that of being gay or bi or any of that. I feel the transgender are more associated with being straight, not gay. So no, the transgender should not be banned. You have many women in sports that are hearty and muscular, but not trans, and physically superior to other women so what are you going to do? Create some "test of strength" where only the weaker women can compete?
And like someone already said.... it's only fuckin sports for gods sake.

Now THERE'S and idea.... maybe we should ban all sports? I'd be for THAT. Sports has turned into money and power and politica and... corruption. So whats the point? Why lambast an entire transgender community over something so fucked up as.... SPORTS???

 

[Brovane]

I agree with you. My nobody comment was based on this "In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle."

Obviously, being #32 in D1 is very impressive but probably isn't much of a threat of winning a title or making the national team. Just like the #32 D1 QB is still an amazing athlete, but is still pretty much a nobody in the sport overall.

But, I think Lia Thomas does show the rules can work. So there is no need for an outright ban.

With Thomas suffering from Gender Dysphoria, she probably wasn't in the best place for the 2018-2019 season.

 

[cytg111]

The trans world is something I fail to grasp.

Thats the beauty of it. You dont have to.
Support other peoples pursuit of happiness and you really dont have to worry about much beyond that.

 

[fskimospy]

The vast majority of the population cares about sports, even if you don't. 50 years ago we decided that woman should be allowed opportunities to compete and we passed Title 9. So I'm guessing a large chunk of the population cares about women's sports, even if they might disagree if trans-women in sports is a big deal. Roughly 40% of the female youth population regularly plays a sport, so again, I think a lot of people care.

I love sports and care about them quite a bit. I mean I’m from Philly - it’s hard to care more about sports than we do.

I reiterate, who gives a shit about this though. This is stupid, crazy, or evil people looking for something to fight about. The percentage of people this affects is vanishingly small.

 

[sdifox]

Children being killed before they can join competitive sports are not important. A few transgendered folks get into competitive sports and it is pandemonium.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Children being killed before they can join competitive sports are not important. A frew transgendered folks get into competitive sports and it is pandemonium.

This. The topic is designed to separateus from getting crap done and elect more fine culture warriors like the guy whose Dad had something to do with the Kennedy assassination and his not hot wife Ted Cruze.
Just stop it, let go and let States do what they see fit. Focus on the more important stuff.