Should stupid kids skip school and learn a trade instead?

[UglyCasanova]

Everyone should complete HS to get a base education down. That said, we have way too many people going on to higher education that shouldn't be.

 

[OutHouse]

Culinary school is considered a trade and it's NOT for stupid people. Most of the code monkey cubicle lizards here couldn't hack a trade school if they tried. Not only do trades demand brains but, skilled hands as well.

QFT. and honestly some of the dumbest people i have ever met were the career university students. just one trick ponys who could barf out useless shit like Shakespeare.

 

[CountZero]

If I were to design the system from the ground up I'd say at the end of 9th grade students will have learned most of the basics we expect everyone to have learned to function in society. At that point you can either continue with school which will be treated as essentially college prep and graded/treated as such (ie it will be difficult) or you can learn a trade. Maybe a year of introductory trade stuff and then two years of apprentice type work. I think alot of the kids that are 'stupid' would probably do much better when they were learning actual skills instead of more advanced science/math stuff. There is a tier of folks that can't do a trade or hack more schooling, not sure what you do there. Maybe offer a GED-lite and just let them out into the workforce. All together this would make a HS diploma far more valuable and could lessen so much of this college is important for everyone crap that goes around.

As the first person in my family to go to college I can tell you they had no idea about what it meant to have a degree. It isn't the golden ticket that so many make it out to be.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

also, part of the problem we have in getting programs like this adopted is people like you that consider tradesmen lower class. who the f would want to go to vocational school if you keep calling them stupid?

 

[mooncancook]

They've been doing this in Europe for decades.

If you don't perform as well as you should by the end of 5th grade, you're going to trade school.

Sometimes ppl, especially guys, don't show their true potential until in high school when they are more mature mentally and started thinking about their future. Though I think if you are really interested in a special trade like furniture making, katana forging, auto mechanic, you should start early, at maybe around age of 15.

 

[DanDaManJC]

the thing with a lot of "stupid kids" isn't that they're stupid it's that they're unmotivated.

i do think our system does suck, there really is no point in keeping people who obviously dont want to be around any longer, especially if they really do know they wanna do a trade. also, there are always exceptions to the rule.

but on the other hand, finishing high school isn't so much about forcing people to learn chem, geometry and physics.. but rather just the idea that it shows future employers that a person is mature enough to put his nose to the grind stone and get what needs to be done, done.

you see that with a lot of the harder college degrees... i know several EEs who were hired into "business" roles, although in a tech company, because the hiring manager knew the kid with the ee degree knows how to work. basically all that time in the lab, as opposed to partying at the frat, ends up paying off.

a couple posters here asked why you'd want a high school dropout working on your plumbing or car... I don't think they were implying that the truly motivated handy-men, who arent so booksmart, are the ones they're wary of. instead, they're wary of the lazy, unmotivated kid who just didn't do his homework. point being --- this lazy kids work habbits aren't just going to magically change... and you want him working on your car?

 

[vi edit]

I definitely think schools need to offer more trades/skilled labor as an alternative rather than forcing them into pre-college courses.

A school near me has an awesome program where you can enroll in a construction elective program where you build houses. This place was built by high schoolers:
http://www.wightchevrolet.com/house/

Not everyone can do, or wants to do a desk job. Give them options and let them figure out what they like/don't like.

 

[dainthomas]

Sometimes ppl, especially guys, don't show their true potential until in high school when they are more mature mentally and started thinking about their future. Though I think if you are really interested in a special trade like furniture making, katana forging, auto mechanic, you should start early, at maybe around age of 15.

That would be one of the awesomest jobs ever.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

lol, I was lazy in High School and even failed the last math class I took, but now I'm in engineering. I wish I was more motivated in High School, almost wish I could go back and academically kick everyone's ass. So I don't quite agree with you, we don't necessarily find out if a student is suitable for a more academically-strenuous career in high school. This is more the exception rather than the rule, though.

In High School, most people were actually 100x worse. Perhaps its these sort of people that probably should drop out and go into less academic careers. But I'm not sure that a skilled trade would be so suitable for these people either.

But I do agree that school is not for everyone, and that non-academic jobs shouldn't be looked down upon. The obsession with college degrees leads to unhappiness and mediocrity.

 

[eLiu]

ATOT is not very well read.

OP, go read "A Brave New World" by Huxley. Your idea is not new. Also it would never fly in our political environment.

 

[mooncancook]

That would be one of the awesomest jobs ever.

Awesome if you are a samurai that wields the sword. Saw a documentary on the profession in Japan today, it's boring, tedious hard work, especially for an apprentice. Nice to see the traditional way of forging a katana is being continued though, unlike the legendary metal forging skills of the dwarves that we can only read about it in books.

 

[SludgeFactory]

If you want to find stupid people, go to your nearest university and you will find thousands of them, burning through money like there's no tomorrow, destined to drop out or get a worthless degree. College isn't what it used to be, they take anybody, and thanks to so many mouth-breathers getting tons of loans, the cost has been inflated to hell.

This has been discussed here more than once. There are pluses and minuses to white collar vs. blue collar. Financially speaking, a lot of "educated" ATOT members would be better off if we'd have jumped into a trade at age 16-18 and not looked back.

 

[irishScott]

How do you know they're stupid? Plenty of undiagnosed/misdiagnosed kids out there who are perfectly intelligent, just need proper therapy and treatment. Hell one of the smartest people I know today nearly flunked out of elementary school due to a misdiagnosis.

Not to mention you'd basically be imposing a caste system on America, which is about un-American as you can get. But then again, you're an Indian Black Guy with a jewel embedded in his forehead.

 

[Modelworks]

I always kind of figured other regions had this, but from the sounds of it maybe not.

I went to high school in south central PA and when you reached 9th or 10th grade you could opt into the Vo-Tech (vocational technologies) program. This was an entirely seperate building that the students attended, geared towards those less academically inclined. It taught welding, wiring, mechanics, agriculture, and I'm sure other trades. Students that were part of the program spent at least half (Im not sure specifically) of the year in VoTech and were still required to complete a certain number of academic courses as well.
.

Years ago schools did have more of a focus on providing vocational skills but then things changed to where they started making the assumption that if a child was failing in school it was because the teacher wasn't doing their job. They implemented standards testing and made it so the schools lost money if the scores dropped on the main subjects . Schools out of fear started putting all the focus on academics because that is what their income was measured by.

Something else to consider is the people who go into something like construction because they are not interested in school, then after a few years on the job find out they really like the work and want to move up in it and so they go and get a degree because of that experience. Many people have changed jobs and found out the degree they have does not apply and they like the new job so much they go back to school to learn more.

 

[hanoverphist]

I think middle school or around 9th grade is enough for people to learn to live a good life. After that when they start bringing in subjects like geometry , physics, chemistry, are when schools start losing interest from students. A lot of students make valid points like 'I will never use this stuff' and are often met with 'I had to learn it' from parents that seem to want their children to endure what they had to go through as if the experience is good for them . Really a lot of the stuff taught in physics, calculus, etc are things people will never use outside of school unless they are going into those fields. By the time they reach high school they have already learned enough about physics, objects fall down, heat rises, etc that is enough for a normal life.

do you really think a trade school wont touch on that stuff at all? ohms law was a bitch for me to remember, just because i did all that when i had a lot of other things to occupy my time/ brain. it wasnt until i treated it like it was actually school work that i got it. motor controls is all logic based, yet not everyone sees the logic. it can be learned tho.

but i agree, if everyone in society goes to college and expects the high paying management gig, who will they manage? intellectual positions will always exist and be needed, but the physical aspect will never go away either, until we design robots to do all that for us. i fear that idiocracy.

 

[JEDI]

Inspired by the "kids too stupid to know what = means thread"

After reading that thread, I got to thinking - Why should we waste money trying to teach children who are too stupid/lazy to learn? Wouldn't our resources be better spent teaching these kids labor skills?

I think it would be a great idea.

I think kids who are stupid and wasted their time learning nothing through High School will have nothing going for them when they [manage to] graduate/drop out. They will most likely end up on welfare, or work entirely too hard to make a meager living.

I know this for a fact. I look out my window and see these kids every day. They'll never amount to anything no matter how hard they try.

Instead, we should take these kids and rewind back a few years. We teach them a skill that requires no knowledge. These kids can be conditioned for labor, instead of academics.

For example, they can be trained to pave roads or highways, learn the arts of heating and ventilation, or even train them to defend our country from a young age. They could learn skills and disipline that would give them enough to live their lives productively, and not be doomed to working in McDonalds or end up homeless or in jail.

Let's face it. Kids who don't go to, or fail school miserably will have no choices in life. By allowing them to learn a trade early on, they can at least get a head start.

There are many people with no education that can succeed financially doing manual labor. Hell, I'd bet if you put a well-educated kid versus one that had years of job experience or training in todays job market...the kid who has the job experience would probably come out better.

What does ATOT think?

in DC area, most of the major union trades are making $40/hr + $10/hr benefits:
Elevator
HVAC
electrical
steamfitters
etc

You start off as an apprentice making a little less than 1/2 that, then add 10percent/yr raise till you reach 10000hrs expereince. then you get full pay.
(note: simplified version)

 

[ModerateRepZero]

Everyone should complete HS to get a base education down. That said, we have way too many people going on to higher education that shouldn't be.

+1

More than a few people went to college not because they wanted to increase their knowledge or gain a useful skill, but just for a degree and enhanced job prospects. And logically speaking, why go to college if there's jobs available for those who don't mind blue-collar, mechanical careers? A vocational school can be just as useful for career prospects who for whatever reason aren't suitable for the college/university, provided that they have a decent HS education.

 

[alkemyst]

IMHO college should become more selective. This Bright Future crap where as long as the kid gets a uncorrected 3.5 or better and gets a seat + tuition for a college is bullshit.

It creates an environment where the teacher needs to have the kid excel at the expense of teaching. I talk to kids and you'd think they'd be learning more now in school than I did 20+ years ago, instead they seem to be teaching less and more focused on standardized test results. You don't hear of shop, graphics arts, home ec., most kids don't get chemistry or physics at all, no real field trips to a research center or government facility...instead they get a day at a theme park.

Now everyone and his brother has a BA degree...some schools are doing A+ and MCSE programs which basically teach the test. It's fucked up and just kills salaries and our economy.

If more didn't make it to college their would be more laborers, more laborers would make unions a bit weaker and drive down wages.

Problem is the automaker and other unions don't want that. They are happy making $50k to 100k or more since now they need 'computer skills' to do their jobs.

 

[sdifox]

I don't understand why trade schools are not more popular. There is a huge need of tradesman. They don't go to less schooling, they just go to more practical schooling. Some people are just not meant to sit at a desk while others can't handle getting their hand dirty.

P.S. I don't think it's a stupid kid issue, it's an aptitude issue.

 

[sdifox]

ATOT is not very well read.

OP, go read "A Brave New World" by Huxley. Your idea is not new. Also it would never fly in our political environment.

Please do not extrapolate AMDHunter onto the rest of us.

 

[jmagg]

Inspired by the "kids too stupid to know what = means thread"

After reading that thread, I got to thinking - Why should we waste money trying to teach children who are too stupid/lazy to learn? Wouldn't our resources be better spent teaching these kids labor skills?

I think it would be a great idea.

I think kids who are stupid and wasted their time learning nothing through High School will have nothing going for them when they [manage to] graduate/drop out. They will most likely end up on welfare, or work entirely too hard to make a meager living.

I know this for a fact. I look out my window and see these kids every day. They'll never amount to anything no matter how hard they try.

Instead, we should take these kids and rewind back a few years. We teach them a skill that requires no knowledge. These kids can be conditioned for labor, instead of academics.

For example, they can be trained to pave roads or highways, learn the arts of heating and ventilation, or even train them to defend our country from a young age. They could learn skills and disipline that would give them enough to live their lives productively, and not be doomed to working in McDonalds or end up homeless or in jail.

Let's face it. Kids who don't go to, or fail school miserably will have no choices in life. By allowing them to learn a trade early on, they can at least get a head start.

There are many people with no education that can succeed financially doing manual labor. Hell, I'd bet if you put a well-educated kid versus one that had years of job experience or training in todays job market...the kid who has the job experience would probably come out better.

What does ATOT think?

Logical Fallacys abound.

 

[Vette73]

I don't understand why trade schools are not more popular. There is a huge need of tradesman. They don't go to less schooling, they just go to more practical schooling. Some people are just not meant to sit at a desk while others can't handle getting their hand dirty.

P.S. I don't think it's a stupid kid issue, it's an aptitude issue.

Problem is a lot of areas get to many plumbers, autotechs, etc.. then they can't find a job and many don;t want to move, or can't, to a area that needs them.

Look at the paper. There are hundreds if not more jobs. Yet unemployment is still in the high single digits. I moved from NC to VA for a job. If not I would not make the money I make now.

 

[StageLeft]

Oh, please, please. I'm still trying to hire upwards of 50 people with trade skills...cannot find them for the life of me. Too many liberal arts, "I can do whatever I set my mind to" type people applying for management roles...

Haha. A lot of guys these days are pathetic, some even pay people to mow their lawns (despite not living on an estate) or paint rooms in their houses.

And yes some people ought not to waste time on education beyond highschool and then a practical trade. There's no shame in plumbing. Pretty damned hard to outsource and the pay can get fairly decent. Same for many similar skills.

 

[Gothgar]

That would be one of the awesomest jobs ever.

go watch more anime

 

[BoomerD]

in DC area, most of the major union trades are making $40/hr + $10/hr benefits:
Elevator
HVAC
electrical
steamfitters
etc

You start off as an apprentice making a little less than 1/2 that, then add 10percent/yr raise till you reach 10000hrs expereince. then you get full pay.
(note: simplified version)

Here, the equipment operators (Operating Engineers) apprenticeship is 8000 hours. Takes an average of 6 years to complete. Starting pay is about 45% of group 3 journeyman pay. (about $15/hr) with 10% increases every 1000 hours...IF the apprentice has shown growth in the trades.
Journeyman pay ranges from about $25 to almost $40 per hour plus about $18 worth of fringe benefits. (pension, health & welfare...(medical, dental, optical) vacation pay, (no paid vacations) plus all the other bullshit that you don't actually see)

For my last 10 years in the trades, I made between $75K and $98K...and never broke $100K only because I didn't want to work any more hours than I already was. Lots of the guys I worked with made $100K+ every year...but few of them had a 4-5 hour daily commute on top of their work day like I did.

I agree that vocational training SHOULD be offered at an early age. Not everyone wants to sit in a cubicle...not everyone SHOULD be in an office job...and trying to make everyone get a college education not only causes excess crowding in the colleges, many of whom never finish, but it also leads to "degree inflation" where jobs that should only need a high school education are now requiring bachelor's degrees..


So...OP, what sort of trade are you going to learn?