Should the starting salary for a teacher be $60,000?

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Interesting article about raising teacher pay dramatically.

As the article says there is limited research on whether higher pay gets better results, but what little research that is out there suggest that it does not lead to better results.

More likely teacher who are good at good because of personal drive and ambition rather than because they are paid more.

Thought?

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/starting-salary-teacher-60-000-131728091.html
How would the nation's school system be different if teachers were paid like engineers?
Secretary of Education Arne Duncan proposed last month that a significant boost in teacher salaries could transform public schools for the better by luring the country's brightest college graduates into the profession.
Teachers should be paid a starting salary of $60,000, Duncan said, with the opportunity to make up to $150,000 a year. That's higher than the salaries of most high school principals, who are generally paid much more than teachers.
The median salary among all middle school teachers, for example, not just those starting out in the profession, is around $52,000, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Would paying teachers 2 to 3 times more money mean that students would learn more? We don't know. But smaller raises of 20 percent or less have been ineffective, and one New York City school that embraced much higher pay has so far underperformed on state tests.
"It will cost money—and—given the current political climate with the nation wrestling with debt and deficits—I am sure some people will immediately say that we can't afford it without even looking at how to redirect the money we are already spending—and mis-spending," Duncan said at the at a conference sponsored by the National Board of Professional Teaching Standards.
Duncan's office would not offer further details to The Lookout about how a school district could redirect money to teachers' salaries or whether Duncan had any specific plans to encourage such sweeping salary changes.
But Duncan's idea has been tried on a smaller scale, which helps us to try to predict what changes a radical increase in teacher salaries nationwide might have on education.
Zeke Vanderhoek, the founder and principal of the Equity Project, a charter school in New York City, decided to pay all of his middle school teachers $125,000 salaries because of research that shows a very good teacher can lift kids' test scores and close achievement gaps. Teachers at the school can earn up to $25,000 more in bonuses, depending on how well their students do.
The Equity Project had to make sacrifices in order to devote more resources to teacher salaries. Its average class is larger than at other city public schools, at about 30 students, and teachers are required to serve in administrative roles so that Vanderhoek doesn't have to hire assistant principals. He also doesn't have to hire any substitute teachers: full-time teachers cover for each other's absences. The teachers work longer days and have only three weeks off during the summer, in contrast to the months-long break many teachers receive.
Nor are the teachers in a union, because Vanderhoek says he must be able to fire teachers who aren't lifting kids' test scores.
Duncan hinted at the same tradeoff in his speech. "If teachers are to be treated and compensated as the true professionals they are, the profession will need to shift away from an industrial-era blue-collar model of compensation to rewarding effectiveness and performance," he said. (Most public school teachers are in a union.)
It is too early to judge the Equity Project, but it has not yet worked any miracles on its high-need student population. Gotham Schools reported that for the second year in a row, the school's students did not outperform kids in regular schools in the district on state tests.
There is not a lot of research that shows the effect of higher pay on teacher performance, retention and satisfaction. This is in part because public school teachers are compensated fairly uniformly around the country.
"It's very hard to find a lot of variety in order to do research on the effect of different ways of paying teachers," said Neal McCluskey, the associate director of the Center for Educational Freedom at the libertarian Cato Institute, in an interview with The Lookout.
A few studies of programs that give teachers cash bonuses for lifting their students' test scores showed that those programs didn't work. Offering up to $15,000 to Nashville teachers did not lift students' performance, and a similar program in New York City was also shown to be a bust.
But looking at bonuses and other forms of merit pay isn't a good way to gauge the success of an across-the-board teacher salary hike, said Brian Lewis, the interim chief executive of the National Board of Professional Teaching Standards. Teachers are paid so little in base salary that many high-achieving college graduates are not drawn to the field in the first place, Lewis told The Lookout. These students know they would be giving up significant lifetime earnings by becoming a teacher rather than entering a more lucrative profession.
In Norway and other countries where students do significantly better than Americans on math tests, teachers are recruited from the top third of college graduates. In the United States, only 23 percent of teachers come from the top third of their class, according to a McKinsey study. (Critics of teacher-focused reforms point out that there is significantly more child poverty in the United States than in most of the countries that perform better on standardized math tests.)
"We have a fundamental misalignment from what we're expecting of people who go into this career and the baseline salaries that we are willing to provide them," Lewis said.
But it's possible that teachers would rather have more job security than a higher salary. When Michelle Rhee controlled Washington D.C.'s schools, she offered up to $130,000 salaries to teachers if they would give up their union's tenure and seniority rules and agree to be paid based on their students' test scores. She could not get the teachers union to accept her offer.
Rhee eventually negotiated a slightly watered-down version of her plan, but she resigned only a few months later when the ouster of Mayor Adrian Fenty was widely seen as a rejection of her education policies.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
private school teachers make much less.. but have better results. I think many teachers would work for their current salary and do a good job if they had the ability to actually discipline a child. My wife is a teacher and this i her biggest problem. it would be nice that if the parent did nothing to help the hoodlum could be kicked out of the school system and the parent have to come up with $5000-11000 to get their kid into a private school.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
More pay leads to better results. Isn't that why schools pay principals, vice principals, superintendents, etc. so much?

 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
90% of teachers failed at their choosen field . So they teach . Pay them accordingly . As failures. The school system already proven failure. Teachers whos students excel should get payed well. Does a GOOD teacher look for work in harlem . NOT a chance . FAIL FAIL FAIL

2 of my wifes sisters daughter are entering teaching . They been shielded from reality their whole lives and are clueless as to how Most Kids are today . I worry for them when reality sets in and they get into the classroom were they are confronted by daycare animals . These women are not ready for this reality.
 
Last edited:
Jan 25, 2011
16,634
8,778
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90% of teachers failed at their choosen field . So they teach . Pay them accordingly . As failures. The school system already proven failure. Teachers whos students excel should get payed well. Does a GOOD teacher look for work in harlem . NOT a chance . FAIL FAIL FAIL

Clearly your previous educators shoud be imprioned for life.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
In economics you learn that if you raise the wages for teacher salaries, you will attract even more incompetent shitheads to become teachers.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Agree, isn't that why CEOs are worth their weight in gold, Even if they fail?

The situation is very similar with teachers. CEOs sit on boards and have their cronies pay them no matter what even if they fail. Kind of like how unions have their crony Congressmen pay them ridiculous wages and benefits even though the school system is fail. Same shit, different color.
 

hellod9

Senior member
Sep 16, 2007
249
0
0
Most teachers are well meaning and hard working. However, they get ground down by the situation they are in. I know someone who teaches in an inner city school in Sacramento. She recently told me she does the "bare minimum." Why? Because even when she works her butt off, she doesn't get results. I don't think she knows how. She doesn't lack work ethic. She's relatively smart. She's well educated. But she's unhappy, and feels incredibly guilty about her situation.

The primary problem, as I see it, is twofold: Our system doesn't seem able to predictably create "good teachers," and we continually send "not good teachers" into a broken schools with low expectations for students and teachers alike. Pay has very little to do with it. If anything, we need to start investing billions of dollars into research on how to train good teachers, spend billions on training those teachers, and then, maybe increase their salaries. For now, I think teachers should continue to be paid a comfortable living wage.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
In economics you learn that if you raise the wages for teacher salaries, you will attract even more incompetent shitheads to become teachers.

Yep, more right wingers would be attracted to the high pay.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
90% of teachers failed at their choosen field . So they teach . Pay them accordingly . As failures. The school system already proven failure. Teachers whos students excel should get payed well. Does a GOOD teacher look for work in harlem . NOT a chance . FAIL FAIL FAIL
LOL maybe that's true if you were stuck with the "dumb" students. My high school Honor/AP class teachers were awesome because students came to class wanting to learn and get good grades.
 

Macamus Prime

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2011
3,108
0
0
I have a true story. I know this one teacher (which means everyone of them does it) who does drugs and spends all her time screaming at the children she is suppose to teach. They also pay her, like, $500,000 a year. And she, like, works for 2 hours a day!! She has been in and out of prison, like, all her life and stuff.

Guys - if you are going to vilify the people who mold and shape the minds of your children,... go for broke! Maybe gather every child of America together and ask them to claim they were molested by teachers? That way, you can just throw EVERY teacher in America into prison! That will teach those teachers to stop being greedy, self entitled leeches! Look at them, trying to get a salary to make a living - all because they want to build the young minds that will lead this nation.

/spit

Makes me sick to my stomach when someone who does something benefitial for this country's future, starts asking for more money! How DARE they?!
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
0
0
Depends on the subject. You can't pay a PE teacher the same as a Biology teacher but that's just my opinion. I got hounded by a recruiter trying to get me to teach science courses in either High School or a Community College. Starting salary was $21,000 a year though so I turned it down. If you're going to get anyone decent teaching at these positions you need to offer more money considering that during normal economic times you can make 2-3x that with very little effort straight out of college. With a bit of luck and lots of effort and hard work considerably more. My general impression of most teachers today is that they are subpar and that makes sense at their current salaries. Those teaching lower grades seem to just be glorified babysitters and that's just not right.

Just raising the salaries today doesn't do us any good though. You need to be able to fill those positions with better faculty. Generally speaking people will only work as hard as the weakest link and that means you'd have to fire an awful lot of teachers.

I also think you need to give teachers more power. It seems like lots of kids are coasting through High School without even learning how to read and write properly. Teachers need to be able to fail kids and hold kids as well as parents accountable. I don't recall the statistic on kids failing tests but it was something staggering and they're still getting diplomas. The military was even having a hard times since High School graduates were unable to pass the entrance exam.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
90% of teachers failed at their choosen field . So they teach . Pay them accordingly . As failures.

This is unbelievably ignorant. Most teachers entered teaching out of college, or when they got sick of actively working in a field (as in, someone works as an engineer for 20 years and then goes back and becomes an engineering professor). I'm sure they exist, but I don't know a single teacher (either from my childhood or now as an adult) that tried to be a professional in a field, failed, and went to teaching.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
Interesting article about raising teacher pay dramatically.

As the article says there is limited research on whether higher pay gets better results, but what little research that is out there suggest that it does not lead to better results.

More likely teacher who are good at good because of personal drive and ambition rather than because they are paid more.

Thought?

first thought: did you really need to quote the whole post?


second: if it's true for teachers then maybe cutting doctors wages in half would work too. maybe they're good at being doctors because of personal drive and ambition rather than because they're paid more. :hmm:
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Raising teacher salaries significantly will attract a lot of people that would normally go into engineering...then watch education really go to hell in a hangbag!
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
My brother makes 220K as a tenured CS Professor and I think he deserves what he gets paid.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
I don't really care so much what they start at but they should be paid increases based on merit and not years of service.
 

IBMer

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2000
1,137
0
76
private school teachers make much less.. but have better results. I think many teachers would work for their current salary and do a good job if they had the ability to actually discipline a child. My wife is a teacher and this i her biggest problem. it would be nice that if the parent did nothing to help the hoodlum could be kicked out of the school system and the parent have to come up with $5000-11000 to get their kid into a private school.

Well the reason private school teachers have better results is because at the bare minimum the parents care enough to put them in betters schools. A lot of the problem with public schools is the kids have in-attentive, uncaring parents or parents that have to work so much that they simply don't have the time to be involved with their kids lives. And even worse is these kids tend to affect the other students in a chain reaction causing the whole system to falter.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
0
0
Raising teacher salaries significantly will attract a lot of people that would normally go into engineering...then watch education really go to hell in a hangbag!

lol

Seriously though lots of people would consider teaching over labwork, drawing table work, programming, or whatever. Engineers, Chemists, Architects, and so on if the pay was good. Nobody expects to make the same as they would doing research or something but the difference is so extreme now that it's almost a no-brainer to not teach. My friends that teach all got Education degrees. That doesn't make a good Math teacher let alone Geography teacher. Everyone who went to a decent 4 year university must have been amazed at the difference between those courses and what you learned in High School. I was floored when I took History and Geography for my transfer electives. Lets be realistic - in High School, Geography could basically be a coloring book course. That's why most Americans have no clue where anything is.
 
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