Should women protect themselves from rape

[nehalem256]

I'm intrigued as to what steps you think a woman can realistically take to reduce the chances of them being raped.

College Women: Stop Getting Drunk
It’s closely associated with sexual assault. And yet we’re reluctant to tell women to stop doing it.

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl..._and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html

Note the article is written by a female.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Oh god whats wrong with it. Here we go.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being of the opinion that people can take reasonable steps to defend themselves from harm, and most people naturally live their lives that way; we avoid walking through bad neighborhoods late at night because we are aware there is a greater chance of something bad happening there, for example. And, by the same logic, women can take steps to avoid situations that would be more likely to put them in harm's way; not walking through a bad neighborhood late at night completely wasted while dressed like a prostitute, for example. That's just common sense that virtually everyone employs on a daily basis.

However, as soon as you start saying that there are steps that people should take to protect themselves, you're essentially placing some portion of blame on the victim, and that's where things fall apart. A young woman was taken advantage of at a party? Well young women should know better than to dress provocatively or go to parties with strangers or drink... Why? Why should a young woman have less expectation of safety at a party than anyone else? That doesn't make much sense. If she's a victim, it's 100% the perpetrator's fault, period. Sitting around nitpicking her fashion choice or drinking habits shifts blame away from the person who victimized her in the first place, and that's not a good thing to do. It's not a victim's fault that someone else acted like an asshole.

Let's say you're walking through a bad section of town. You know better, but you just need to duck through real quick to get to the subway station. Oh shit, that dude's got a gun. He demands you empty your pockets, and you do because you don't want to get shot. And he runs off laughing. The next day, the police call you up and say "hey, we caught this guy and he had your stuff on him, do you want to press charges?" Hell yes. You take him to court, you're testifying against him, and the attorney for the defense says "So where exactly did this take place? Pretty bad part of town, right? Well, walking through that neighborhood, you can pretty much expect to get robbed, right? You basically set yourself up to be victimized. Sounds like you pretty much deserved this."

Does that seem like a reasonable line of thinking to you? They've got the guy, he committed a crime, and they're focusing on where the crime took place as though that forgives the act? Who gives a shit where it happened? It's still a crime.

That's exactly the same as saying that how a woman dresses somehow has a bearing on whether or not she gets sexually assaulted. It's a pointless diversion that takes away from the fact that she should have a reasonable expectation of safety regardless of her outfit, or where she was, or how inebriated she was, or any other meaningless criteria. We need to focus on the people committing the crime, not how victims can keep from being victims in situations where they shouldn't have been victims in the first place.

 

[master_shake_]

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl..._and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html

Note the article is written by a female.

there is no reason why a woman shouldn't be able to go out and get hammered.

but the real question that begs to be asked is, where are the drunk girls friends when she is being sexual assaulted?

do women have a bro code?

 

[BoberFett]

However, as soon as you start saying that there are steps that people should take to protect themselves, you're essentially placing some portion of blame on the victim, and that's where things fall apart.

Horseshit.

Yes, crime is 100% the fault of the perpetrator and not the victim.

But the "rape culture" crowd has gone over the edge that and said that not only should people not need to take any precautions whatsoever, but even suggesting that people take reasonable precautions is somehow wrong and contributing to the problem.

That's mind bogglingly stupid.

 

[BoberFett]

What would you call the emotion felt by a sane person in a canoe full of folk so scared of paddling upstream they want to paddle downstream over a waterfall?

In a land where brain defectives seek control of the levers of power because they hate government, and are thus so much better qualified not to run it, is that feeling really rage or a common sense reaction to fucking idiots. Take a good look at yourself. You are an automaton of rage against the puerile fear that some liberal wants to run your life, that you have every right in the world to paddle down stream. Just be careful not to put me in your boat or you will find that as the falls draws closer what you mistake for rage may turn into something else.

Liberals are frightened of nail polish. Faulty amygdala at work.

 

[nehalem256]

However, as soon as you start saying that there are steps that people should take to protect themselves, you're essentially placing some portion of blame on the victim, and that's where things fall apart. A young woman was taken advantage of at a party? Well young women should know better than to dress provocatively or go to parties with strangers or drink... Why? Why should a young woman have less expectation of safety at a party than anyone else?[ That doesn't make much sense. If she's a victim, it's 100% the perpetrator's fault, period. Sitting around nitpicking her fashion choice or drinking habits shifts blame away from the person who victimized her in the first place, and that's not a good thing to do. It's not a victim's fault that someone else acted like an asshole.

And for literally anything other than women be raped we do say there are things you should do to protect yourself.

We tell children if the creepy guy with the mustache offers you candy to run away from him. Why don't just tells pedos not to pedo. Seems to me like apparently we have more respect for the agency of children than have adult women.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Horseshit.

Yes, crime is 100% the fault of the perpetrator and not the victim.

But the "rape culture" crowd has gone over the edge that and said that not only should people not need to take any precautions whatsoever, but even suggesting that people take reasonable precautions is somehow wrong and contributing to the problem.

That's mind bogglingly stupid.

But what are those reasonable precautions? Always carry mace and a taser? Don't go to parties? Don't wear anything that reveals any cleavage or body curvature because if you inspire an accidental boner, you're encouraging rape? Telling somebody to be careful and use their best judgment is fine. Telling women to not be so damn sexy is absurd. And no matter what you tell them in advance, "I told you so" is never an acceptable response to a sexual assault, period. The fact that we needed laws to tell us that a victim's clothing isn't admissible as evidence is insane.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

We tell children if the creepy guy with the mustache offers you candy to run away from him. Why don't just tells pedos not to pedo. Seems to me like apparently we have more respect for the agency of children than have adult women.

Some might argue that you're showing more respect for someone's agency if you let them make their own decisions and don't tell them exactly what to do beforehand, but maybe you define the word differently than everyone else on Earth.

 

[BoberFett]

But what are those reasonable precautions? Always carry mace and a taser? Don't go to parties? Don't wear anything that reveals any cleavage or body curvature because if you inspire an accidental boner, you're encouraging rape? Telling somebody to be careful and use their best judgment is fine. Telling women to not be so damn sexy is absurd. And no matter what you tell them in advance, "I told you so" is never an acceptable response to a sexual assault, period. The fact that we needed laws to tell us that a victim's clothing isn't admissible as evidence is insane.

Why is that insane? A person has the right make any excuse they want as a defense in court. Laws against clothing style as evidence are explicitly saying it's no excuse, and putting blame back on the perp instead of the victim. That's not perpetuating "rape culture", it's actively working against it.

Why are you stuck thinking backwards about this?

Edit: WTF? Your avatar has the Playboy Bunny in it. Why don't you stop supporting rape, you scumbag?

 

[nehalem256]

But what are those reasonable precautions? Always carry mace and a taser? Don't go to parties? Don't wear anything that reveals any cleavage or body curvature because if you inspire an accidental boner, you're encouraging rape? Telling somebody to be careful and use their best judgment is fine. Telling women to not be so damn sexy is absurd. And no matter what you tell them in advance, "I told you so" is never an acceptable response to a sexual assault, period. The fact that we needed laws to tell us that a victim's clothing isn't admissible as evidence is insane.

Do you have any evidence that anyone actually used "she wore a short skirt so I threw her over the nearest chair and started banging her doggy-style" defense?

Or is that just a feminist invention?

 

[BoberFett]

Do you have any evidence that anyone actually used "she wore a short skirt so I threw her over the nearest chair and started banging her doggy-style" defense?

Or is that just a feminist invention?

I have little doubt that's been used many times. And I'm sure in the past it was probably a successful defense from a jury of old men in some backwards town.

But it's not insane to have that law in place, any more than it's insane to have any other law in place for a behavior that society has decided to outlaw.

But when it comes to rape for some reason, some people think sticking our heads in the sand and saying that rape shouldn't even exist will actually make it go away. Probably because some hardcore modern feminists have gone full blown crazy.

 

[Exophase]

But it's not insane to have that law in place, any more than it's insane to have any other law in place for a behavior that society has decided to outlaw.

Atomic Playboy said it was insane that the law was necessary, not that it was insane to have the law. You do understand the difference here, right? He never said that the law perpetuated rape culture either. Just that it's sad that this was ever a defense that could actually help win a not guilty verdict.

 

[nehalem256]

Atomic Playboy said it was insane that the law was necessary, not that it was insane to have the law. You do understand the difference here, right? He never said that the law perpetuated rape culture either. Just that it's sad that this was ever a defense that could actually help win a not guilty verdict.

Why is it sad that the way a woman acted prior to an act of sex might be used as part of defense with regard to whether that act of sex was rape?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Why is it sad that the way a woman acted prior to an act of sex might be used as part of defense with regard to whether that act of sex was rape?

It's sad you have to ask.

 

[nehalem256]

It's sad you have to ask.

Because it should be obvious that its a perfectly legitimate defense.

If you dress slutty and go to a club, meet some random dude and go back to his apartment its not because he wants to show you his My Little Pony collection.

Anyone knows this. And so the fact that all your actions show clearly show you were down for sex with the guy clearly introduces reasonable doubt.

Excluding such a defense is essentially shitting on the justice system.

 

[BoberFett]

Atomic Playboy said it was insane that the law was necessary, not that it was insane to have the law. You do understand the difference here, right? He never said that the law perpetuated rape culture either. Just that it's sad that this was ever a defense that could actually help win a not guilty verdict.

It's not insane that it's necessary either.

There is a defense against murder, it's called self-defense. In an ideal world, nobody would kill each other. But in the real world it happens. Sometimes it happens for a reason for which we choose not to punish the killer. There are laws set up to define when self-defense is and is not acceptable. That's not insane.

So it's not insane to define the parameters under which rape is acceptable (never) and what an allowable defense is. We have chosen to disallow revealing clothing as an excuse. Is mental incompetence a defense for rape? Should we be throwing people with an IQ of 50 in prison for rape? Or do we define reasonable defenses?

That's how the law works, nothing insane about it.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Because it should be obvious that its a perfectly legitimate defense.

If you dress slutty and go to a club, meet some random dude and go back to his apartment its not because he wants to show you his My Little Pony collection.

Anyone knows this. And so the fact that all your actions show clearly show you were down for sex with the guy clearly introduces reasonable doubt.

Excluding such a defense is essentially shitting on the justice system.

you can go through that hypothetical, and if you get back to that apartment and she says no....it doesn't mean force her to do it.

exluding that defense is right, because it doesn't matter what she did...when it's time to stop, it means stop.

you go to a strip club, and just pick a girl to forcibly have intercourse with? They're all just asking for it, right?

 

[nehalem256]

you can go through that hypothetical, and if you get back to that apartment and she says no....it doesn't mean force her to do it.

exluding that defense is right, because it doesn't matter what she did...when it's time to stop, it means stop.

So basically you are shitting on the concept of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".

How exactly does one know whether she said no or not in the apartment?

You want to exclude the defense because obviously dressing like a slut and acting like a slut introduces reasonable doubt to whether she really was a slut.

 

[nehalem256]

you go to a strip club, and just pick a girl to forcibly have intercourse with? They're all just asking for it, right?

So I take it you don't understand context right?

And it appears you have difficulty understand the difference between dressing like a slut means a woman is asking to be raped and saying that if a woman dresses like a slut and acts like a slut it means it is less likely that a rape actually occurred. In other words reasonable doubt a central concept of the American legal system.

 

[MrPickins]

You want to exclude the defense because obviously dressing like a slut and acting like a slut introduces reasonable doubt to whether she really was a slut.

And sluts never say no, right?



(Except to you, of course.)

 

[nehalem256]

And sluts never say no, right?

(Except to you, of course.)

And how exactly does one establish whether the slut said yes or no in a court of law?

 

[nehalem256]

Lets flip things around.

What if I said that the fact that a woman had bruises should be excluded because it wasn't really indicative of rape because the woman could have just been into 50 Shades of Gray?

 

[Victorian Gray]

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl..._and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html

Note the article is written by a female.

That's nice. Post another meaningless fact now.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Do you have any evidence that anyone actually used "she wore a short skirt so I threw her over the nearest chair and started banging her doggy-style" defense?

Or is that just a feminist invention?

C'mon, admit it. It's what you did when you first met your toaster.

 

[PliotronX]

It coincides with self defense. Most people are good and you wont likely run into problems but the reality is s*** can happen and if I were a woman I would want to be prepared. Both men and women who go through life thinking something bad will never happen to them just might be in for a wake up call.