Silicon Valley Bank collapses

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,711
34,589
136
Also they were keeping huge, necessary, unsecured deposits there. Maybe…don’t do that.

Funny how the ‘smart money’ is often not very smart.

JP Morgan, Goldman, etc picking up the phone this weekend to startups they've funded explaining that everybody putting everything in the same bank is possibly a bad idea.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,822
8,296
136
SVB is publicly traded. As such, its records are scrutinized by law. My niece's son Bret is a CPA, works for a large accounting firm contracted by the federal government and makes his living scrutinizing publicly traded companies. There are systems (which he employs) that sample data, looking for irregularities, etc. He and his father told me well before the Democrats chose their candidate in 2020 (before the primaries) that only Joe Biden had a realistic chance to beat Donald Trump in the general election. I wasn't shocked but I was certainly surprised. Turned out that they may have been right.

When I get the chance I'll ask Bret what he makes of the SVB collapse. I imagine his take will be prescient.
 
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Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,726
2,500
126
No the smart money is literally like 10 guys in a company of 10,000 with a hundred thousand investors. They're the only ones who actually know what's going on and they are almost exclusively evil manipulative shits. And people that smart never go to prison. They set up multiple layers of scapegoats, have their lawyers lined up and ready to go, and usually make a plan for the worse case scenario, which is feds knocking down their doors, handcuffs ready to go.

By the way, the last rich asshole to serve any real time was also pardoned:


By the orange rapist everyone believes is a champion of the working class.

Shorty-thanks for ruining my good mood. Trump did so much stupid and/or evil shit either I missed this. The only person I can think of (off the top of my head) less deserving of a pardon would have been Charles Manson.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Shorty-thanks for ruining my good mood. Trump did so much stupid and/or evil shit either I missed this. The only person I can think of (off the top of my head) less deserving of a pardon would have been Charles Manson.

I remember. The news showed it. It was kind of a big deal that right before the 2020 election he either wanted to, or was persuaded to, pardon a shitload of horrible monsters. None of them were poor blacks unjustly incarcerated for murder or drug trafficking. It was mostly rich or influential white males who had fucked America out of billions of dollars.
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,005
2,275
136
If another bank this week has a surge of customers withdrawing their money, that could be real trouble.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,363
7,016
136
This is an interesting thread:


I worked in bank liquidity and treasury for the better part of the last decade, and there is one very interesting risk factor from the SVB collapse that I do not think we have ever witnessed before in modern finance,

First, some context. Following the 2008 financial crisis where a massive driver of stress was caused by low quality assets littering the balance sheets of massive institutions, the regulators sought to create a framework to ensure all banks were verifiably sound.

This meant forcing Federally registered banks to conform to capital and liquidity ratios. If they did not comply, they would not be allowed to issue dividends or buy back stocks, hurting the value of their enterprise.

There was the introduction of the concept of RWA, or risk weighted assets. A simple way to think of these ratios is, the riskier your asset base on a weighted basis, the more high quality capital (think cash) you would need to hold to stay in compliance.

Not only were banks required to regularly be in compliance with these ratios as a going concern, but needed to prove they could maintain certain limits when met with a time of stress across a number of incrementally adverse scenarios.

I believe this framework was developed based on the technical limitations of the time period, which is the early 2010s. Recall that companies like Twitter and Reddit and many fintech start-ups were in infancy or did not exist.

Digital customer experience in banking was improving, but many people, certainly more than today, still relied on branches to deposit checks, met with their bankers and everything had a lot more friction. And communication innovations of social media were in their infancy.

So when setting a framework, it was logical to believe that even if 50% of your depositors were to leave the bank, it would take considerable time to a) process transactions and b) have the word spread, giving these institutions a good buffer and time to recapitalize.

But as we just saw yesterday, these assumptions no longer hold, and in some ways, new tech has forced us into a very interesting position. Ask yourself, could the swiftness and awareness of what was happening yesterday happen 10 years ago? We didn't even all have smartphones.

The massive risk factor that has become very clear from all of this is what I am calling for purposes of this thread "social media risk".

I started to dig into SVB's financial situation on Thursday and had some former co-workers who were there months ago when I quit my consulting job, so I had a decent idea on how they were evolving their risk management processes and their balance sheet.

For all intents and purposes, they appeared to be in compliance with capital requirements, their balance sheet was constructed of very strong HQLA (High Quality Liquid Assets) and looked like they could very easily handle a stressed outflow.

Let me caveat here. A stressed outflow for example, would be a day where some large clients pulled down on their credit lines all at once, a few big depositors pulled out and a portion of their loans became non performing. NOT a full on run.

In fact, it can be argued that no going concern bank has the capital available to handle a full blown instantaneous bank run, thats just not how bank business models work. You can argue the merits of this but at the end of the day, this is how the system is set up.

And so this is where I started to get very confused. SVB had announced they were liquidating their available for sale security portfolio for some extra liquidity and do some rebalancing to capture higher yielding instruments to offset what they were paying in interest deposits.

To stay in compliance, they were raising ~$2B to cover the loss they realized from the sale. Clearly things weren't going great, but raising $2B in capital compared to $175B in deposits to be compliant with conservative regulations didn't seem like a bank-ending event to me.

Apparently in my infinite wisdom, I was dead wrong. The equity holders, rightfully, started selling because they were about to be substantially diluted, making each individual share less valuable post new issuance.

This of course caught the eye of many, making it a top 5 headline on Thursday, but certainly not flashing any crazy alarm bells.


Now, enter twitter.


I mentioned in passing to my co-founders "Hey this SVB stuff is crazy eh?" and one of them immediately responded "I heard from a friend they were insolvent". That's when I go worried. First off, who is his friend and second of all, what public evidence was there?

Then the industrial virality complex kicked in. Minutes later, my twitter feed was awash of prominent accounts being retweeted and raised up basically spelling the doom of SVB. The grave dancing party had started, and from there it looked grim.

Low and behold, this is how it all went down. You then hear Peter Thiel told his Founder's Fund companies to pull out and I have to imagine every single venture telegram chat was blowing up. Pull out, pull out was the message.

There was no time for investigation, no time for nuance, it was time to move, and move fast. Pull out your phone, check twitter quick to verify, switch to your SVB app and conduct a wire transfer
(I'm assuming its a similar process to my business account at Chase).

We all know where we are now, and it's dripping with uncertainty. I fear we might have shot ourselves in the foot, and with how fast the world works now, there was no real way to stop it. If we had a time machine, I'm pretty sure the past 48 hours were unavoidable.

Back of the envelope, there is a very high probability that depositors of SVB may recovery anywhere from 90% to 100% of their accounts given the quality of assets on their balance sheet and the ability to liquidate the loan portfolio, even assuming 10% losses.

But it will take months now to recover all the funds, months that some companies do not have to wait for cash to hit their accounts. It's painful, but it could have all been avoided, especially if the outcome is indeed max or near max recouping of funds.

So how could this have been avoided? Well for one, SVB should have been doing more prudent portfolio rebalancing and should have been much more communicative way ahead of this incident, both to investors and large depositors.

But the reality is, the banking industry has to start adding this "social media risk" into their frameworks and find a way to get ahead and control the narrative, to avoid this type of situation from happening again.

It's scary to think, but the same types of tactics that can manipulate an election can be used to undermine the strength of a bank. This time around, it was pointing to unrealized losses on high quality assets to pile on and justify a panic. But it can manifest from anything.

The only way I see to combat this is for firms to have a stronger social media presence, one that they take seriously, not just to push certain social messaging and promotions.

Meet your customers where they are, in their preferred medium. Start to do breakdowns of your earnings reports across all channels. Give ad hoc updates during the quarter and make sure everyone is aware of your status. Transparency is the key to this mitigating this risk.

I also strongly believe we, as the consumers, need more opportunities to be better educated on a deeper level on how this system, that we trust with our money, operates. It's been distressing to see some of the commentary on this site the last two days.



TLDR:

- Tech advancement has made finreg very dated

- SVB wasn't on the greatest footing, but was largely taken down by virality and panic

- Social media risk needs to be defined and taken seriously

- Banks need to be more transparent about their business on socials.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,822
8,296
136
If another bank this week has a surge of customers withdrawing their money, that could be real trouble.
There's been a lot of storm clouds over Silicone Valley recently. 10 atmospheric rivers have hit California this season and a big one's gonna hit Tuesday (as big as Thurdays!) starting in the wee hours, and according to a meteorologist I saw on TV last night it will hit heaviest in the SV area.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,822
8,296
136
Just now in The New York Times:

March 12, 2023Updated 6:38 p.m. ET
Federal regulators announced on Sunday that they would ensure that all depositors of Silicon Valley Bank — which failed Friday — were paid back in full as they rushed to contain fallout from the collapse of the large institution.

The Federal Reserve, Treasury and Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation announced in a joint statement that “depositors will have access to all of their money starting Monday, March 13. No losses associated with the resolution of Silicon Valley Bank will be borne by the taxpayer.”
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,711
34,589
136
So the FDIC will use the DIF to cover the uninsured deposits under systemic risk and raise assessments on the banks to do so? Curious to hear more about the assessments since there is only $100B in the fund and Treasury is really going to want to avoid this looking like a bailout (tho it is) if people assume they are the backstop.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,647
10,507
136
Local news TV says that 10 to 20% of the Washington wineries used that bank for lines of credit. Just saw the above posted. I hope this all works out, some workers aren't getting paid.
 
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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
So the FDIC will use the DIF to cover the uninsured deposits under systemic risk and raise assessments on the banks to do so? Curious to hear more about the assessments since there is only $100B in the fund and Treasury is really going to want to avoid this looking like a bailout (tho it is) if people assume they are the backstop.
Either way, I want rich assholes to end up in prison. That will never happen. Cuz frankly there is no justice in this country.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,465
27,737
136
So the FDIC will use the DIF to cover the uninsured deposits under systemic risk and raise assessments on the banks to do so? Curious to hear more about the assessments since there is only $100B in the fund and Treasury is really going to want to avoid this looking like a bailout (tho it is) if people assume they are the backstop.
Surely those of us who sacrificed returns for the FDIC security blanket will get retroactive interest payments from the banks since it turns out there was no reason to pay the insurance premiums upfront, correct?
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,711
34,589
136
Surely those of us who sacrificed returns for the FDIC security blanket will get retroactive interest payments from the banks since it turns out there was no reason to pay the insurance premiums upfront, correct?

Would you accept higher banking fees to cover selfish idiots instead?
 

Artorias

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2014
2,131
1,410
136
I think the pitchforks need to be put down until a full audit is conducted.

As the thread above insinuates they seemed to be in good standing and in compliance with regulations, of course they probably found some loopholes to try and make more money, well just have to find out what risks they took.

Social media/viral culture is a very real risk, we cant really comprehend what a digital stampede is compared to before digital banking when you physically had to run down to the bank.

I think everyone should understand by now that no bank in the world can survive if a majority of their clients want their money at once.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,711
34,589
136
Social media/viral culture is a very real risk, we cant really comprehend what a digital stampede is compared to before digital banking when you physically had to run down to the bank.

I think everyone should understand by now that no bank in the world can survive if a majority of their clients want their money at once.

I do think some discussion about how to prevent an electronic run on a bank should be had alongside how to better prevent large regionals from screwing up so badly.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,363
7,016
136
A New York Area bank collapses - Signature bank


State regulators closed New York-based Signature Bank (SBNY.O) on Sunday, just two days after California authorities shuttered Silicon Valley Bank (SIVB.O), in a collapse that roiled global markets and stranded billions of dollars of deposits.

The U.S. Treasury Department and other bank regulators said in a joint statement on Sunday that all depositors of Signature Bank will be made whole, and "no losses will be borne by the taxpayer." The Signature failure is the third-largest in U.S. banking history.

New York banking regulators appointed the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) as receiver for later disposition of the bank's assets. Signature Bank reported deposit balances totaling $89.17 billion as of March 8. As of Dec. 31, it had approximately $110.36 billion in assets, according to New York state's Department of Financial Services.

The FDIC on Sunday established a "bridge" successor bank to Signature, which will enable customers to access their funds on Monday. Signature Bank's depositors and borrowers will automatically become customers of the bridge bank, the FDIC said.

The regulator named former Fifth Third Bancorp Chief Executive Greg Carmichael as CEO of the bridge bank.

Signature's failure followed Silicon Valley Bank's Friday shutdown, the largest failure since Washington Mutual went bust in 2008 during the financial crisis. Washington Mutual still ranks as the largest bank failure in U.S. history.


U.S. officials on Sunday said Silicon Valley Bank customers will have access to their deposits starting on Monday. The federal government also announced actions to shore up deposits and stem any broader financial fallout from the collapse of the tech startup-focused lender.

Signature Bank, a commercial bank with private client offices in New York, Connecticut, California, Nevada and North Carolina, had nine national business lines including commercial real estate and digital asset banking.

As of September, almost a quarter of Signature’s deposits came from the cryptocurrency sector, but the bank announced in December that it would shrink its crypto-related deposits by $8 billion.

Signature Bank announced in February that its chief executive officer, Joseph DePaolo, would transition into a senior adviser role in 2023 and would be succeeded by the bank’s chief operating officer, Eric Howell. DePaolo has served as president and CEO since Signature's inception in 2001.

The bank had had a long-standing relationship with former President Donald Trump and his family, providing Trump and his business with checking accounts and financing several of the family's ventures. Signature Bank cut ties with Trump in 2021 following the deadly Jan. 6 riots on Capitol Hill and urged Trump to resign.

In a statement, New York Governor Kathy Hochul said she hoped the U.S. government's actions on Sunday would provide "increased confidence in the stability of our banking system."

"Many depositors at these banks are small businesses, including those driving the innovation economy, and their success is key to New York's robust economy," she said.

Officials on Sunday said shareholders and certain unsecured debtholders of Signature Bank, as well as those of Silicon Valley Bank, would not be protected, and that senior management of both banks has been removed.

Any losses to the FDIC's Deposit Insurance Fund used to support uninsured depositors will be recovered by a special assessment on banks, as required by law, officials said.
 
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UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,836
9,071
136
Fucking hell

You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villian!


Can’t wait to see Republicans blaming “corrupt Dems” like Barney Frank for this mini crisis. They certainly have the chutzpah for attacking Dems for deregulation. While they’re at it, they can blame the CFPB for not doing their job (which of course they helped defund.)
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
7,115
5,992
136
Either way, I want rich assholes to end up in prison. That will never happen. Cuz frankly there is no justice in this country.

The fact that none of these motherfuckers were sent to the gallows in 2008 was the final straw that made me completely lose faith in this nation.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,363
7,016
136
The fact that none of these motherfuckers were sent to the gallows in 2008 was the final straw that made me completely lose faith in this nation.

Well Bernie Madoff went to jail.

I think he was the face of the clown show of fraud and the public would not forget him. Or how the Enron CEO went to jail and died.

We gotta have our pound of flesh to please the crowd even if its a whole fucking gigaton that's guilty!

I do think some heads will roll on this, but not everyone will got to jail obviously.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Forgot about Bernie.
OK so we did nail ONE guy. Once.
And you know HOW he got convicted?
His sons not only ratted him out, but later testified.
Thats it. Thats how you nail a rich thief. You have to get his family to work directly against him.
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
23,772
4,963
146
So from this article, it says that the FDIC is going to make all depositors whole from both banks?
That's a lot of billions from the FDIC. Assuming they have enough to cover SVB and Signature, how does their FDIC fund get replenished?
(229 Billion extra to cover both banks)

US banks have well over $1 trillion of uninsured deposits. Signature Bank was among the most exposed.

 
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