Sim City 5

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randay

Lifer
May 30, 2006
11,018
216
106
sunday night my wind power plant decides to stop working. all the windmills just stop. i had to build a coal plant and buy from neighbors. i tried everything turn it off turn it on, bulldoze some windmills, rejoin, waited a day logged back in and it was still broke. all they did was sit there and not spin. finally i had to bulldoze the entire plant and build a new one to get it to work.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
Couple of things... Tried to install simcity (2013) on my surface 128gb with no luck. "Will not run in a virtual environment"..... Ok?...... Tried a bunch of the fixes, including the origin beta version, all with no luck. Basically the new sim city won't run on the surface.



So, I bought sim city 4. Played it. It is amazing. I wish I could've done it without giving EA money, but whatever.



What a ridiculous mess.
 

Canbacon

Senior member
Dec 24, 2007
794
4
91
Couple of things... Tried to install simcity (2013) on my surface 128gb with no luck. "Will not run in a virtual environment"

Known issue with Surface due to the way Windows 8 is setup on it. However, it was fixed on launch with a special build (via dropbox) and it should have been introduced into the main pipeline. The version of Origin you want is: 9.1.14.94 - 215150. That version is working for me.

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/30/9291803.page#27275007 (scroll down to EA_Mikes second post, may not work anymore)

Don't expect to be able to play at 1080p with lighting set more than minimum without some slowdowns. Minimum lighting and everything else to max is nice at 1080p. If you want lighting to low, I would recommend setting the res to 720p.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,105
21,228
136
interesting. today when i get home in origin, SimCity doesn't show up as any of My Games. i had a shortcut to it and it does launch. origin seems to feel it's not my game anymore. my friends list is completely empty now.

i still have my other games listed, including bf3. also most servers are available. i've never seen it this green before. i finally got on NA East2. my city is gone.
 

maevinj

Senior member
Nov 20, 2004
928
11
81
So aside from people cities disappearing randomly now. How long does your city stay on a server? Say I build a city on NA East 2 and then quit and don't log into that server for 6 months. Will my city be there?
 

Kalmah

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2003
3,692
1
76
interesting. today when i get home in origin, SimCity doesn't show up as any of My Games. i had a shortcut to it and it does launch. origin seems to feel it's not my game anymore. my friends list is completely empty now.

i still have my other games listed, including bf3. also most servers are available. i've never seen it this green before. i finally got on NA East2. my city is gone.

Geez. Good luck with fixing all of that.

I want to play this game but everybody is constantly giving me reasons not to buy it.

Have any of the issues been fixed yet as far as bugs and server stability?
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
So aside from people cities disappearing randomly now. How long does your city stay on a server? Say I build a city on NA East 2 and then quit and don't log into that server for 6 months. Will my city be there?

Your city would be there. They aren't being deleted as much as the servers are being patched and updated right now, causing stability issues. I'd be willing to bet that later today the missing cities will magically reappear.

It sucks but it might be better to just avoid playing for a week or two. That said, people who might be thinking of purchasing should avoid it for a week or two.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
new feature: $0.99/month for "priority" saves? lol

the whole cloud saved game thing kinda boggles my mind, especially with no option to manually push a save update.
 

HarvardAce

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
233
0
71
Alright, I've played a good deal now with limited issues, and I'm coming to believe that after you look past the launch issues, server issues, and bugs that are still in the game (and there are a lot), the underlying glassbox simulation is fundamentally flawed.

Disclaimer: Most of this is based on my game experience, dev talks/diagrams about glassbox, and taking a close look at the gameplay and complaints of other people. It may be wrong, but at this point I am reasonably sure that this is correct.

At its most basic level, the game basically simulates a bunch of commodities (power, water, people) moving from a supply to a sink. On the move, these commodities are called "agents". However, once the agent reaches the destination, the agent simply drops its payload into the sink and then is discarded from the simulation. Commodities themselves are just a simple object with a type and quantity, and possibly a few other minor attributes (e.g. 1kL of water, 10% polluted). Once they hit the sink, they just add their payload to the mass of the sink and any unique characteristics of that individual payload is lost.

What this means is that individuals don't really exist in the simulation except during transit. Once they hit the sink, they just become one slightly bigger blob of humanity just like a drop of water would when it hits a pool.

Many people have complained about the pathfinding in the game. The issue is not the pathfinding, but rather the actual determination of the destination. It appears that every time an agent is created, it finds the nearest sink with capacity for the type of commodity that the agent holds. The agent then heads toward the sink, and drops off its payload at the first sink that it encounters on its journey (which isn't necessarily its destination if a sink opens up on its way to the original sink).

The problem with the above is that, as density increases, the closest sink is the same for a huge number of agents. All of those agents try and get to the same sink, even though the sink itself can't handle more than a small fraction of the agents. Ideally the agents that reach the sink after it is full can find another nearby sink, but eventually all the "nearby" sinks will fill up and now those agents may have to trek to the other side of your city just to find an available sink.

A better (but still far from ideal) situation would be for an agent to call "dibs" on a sink when it is dispatched toward it, such that only an amount to fill the sink is sent to a particular destination and the next agents know that the sink is effectively filled, even if it isn't at the time they are created. My guess is that this isn't done because of scaling issues, as you now have dependencies between the agents which prevents some parallel/bulk processing (note that you can still gain some parallel processing power even if you are single-threaded because you can bulk shortest path requests together, for example).

The best solution and most accurate would be for individuals to be tracked and have histories -- what job they have, what house they live in. You would have a better distribution of traffic during rush hour because people from the same source would be heading to different locations, rather than all of them heading to the same location. You also wouldn't have the issue I've described above where you are overallocating agents to a particular sink.
 

Sulaco

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2003
3,825
44
91
Reading this thread makes me want to get Sim City 4.

How does the game work? Is there just a sandbox mode you can go through with everything unlocked with no goal other than to raise money to make your city awesome?

Uh....YES!!!

I think I understand your question, anyway. That's what SimCity has always been about. The only limit is money, and eventually, space. Although in SC 4, the tiles are so drastically bigger than Sim City 5's crappy little offerings, the second is rarely an issue.

But yes, start the game up, pick a plot, customize every last detail of the terrain if you want with the God Tool (can you do that in Sim City 5?), and then found your city and have a ball!
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
SC4 is like an advanced version of this new Sim City. Backwards we have gone...

Don't even go to simtropolis.com or you'll be sucked into downloading mod after mod after mod to further enhance your playing experience. The NAM download is a must by the way which is funny, when EA can't fix stuff the community can. In the new Sim City it's not possible due to the server tie in.
The Prima Strategy Guide for SC4 showed you how detailed they got with that thing - it's about 350 pages, detailing the effects of every structure in the game, and going over how the engine works.
(Deluxe Edition of SC4 is the way to go, which includes the Rush Hour expansion pack.)


And yes, you could even save your cities, whenever you wanted to, locally, without an Internet connection, without fear that they'd just up and vanish.
 

HarvardAce

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
233
0
71
Again, the problem with SimCity that will still be present after all the bugs are fixed and servers are stabilized, is that the GlassBox engine is a terrible simulation engine for a city.

Here's a picture of my test setup.

Picture shows the layout of my test city. I have all work areas in one location in the southeast corner of the city, 99% of my residential area a good distance away, and a single 6-person low-income home at the end of a dead end street that is at 5/6 residents. At the end of the shift (6AM), every car that is created with a worker on his/her way home picks the closest open residential home, which happens to be the one at the end of that dead end. Even after the slot is filled, cars that have already been created still head up the dead-end street. Only newly created cars after that slot had been filled go directly to the larger residential area. The cars that didn't must reach their destination (the house at the end of the street) before realizing it is full, and then heading to the next closest residential plot which is in the main section of town.

Youtube video showing the problem.
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
Again, the problem with SimCity that will still be present after all the bugs are fixed and servers are stabilized, is that the GlassBox engine is a terrible simulation engine for a city.

Simcity simulates actual cities like Grid simulates car racing. Simcity simulates actual cities just like the Sims simulated actual people; it's not meant to be 100% accurate. It's meant to be cutesy and satirical.

I think if anyone goes in expecting anything more is going to be disappointed. You have to embrace it for what it is, not what it isn't. That doesn't mean I'm saying it's a great game, only that you have to judge it based on what the developer intended which is a reimagining of the series just like Firaxis did with X-Com. The new X-Com stands on its own in spite of obvious detrimental differences between it and the original.

It's much the same with Simcity.
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Again, the problem with SimCity that will still be present after all the bugs are fixed and servers are stabilized, is that the GlassBox engine is a terrible simulation engine for a city.

Here's a picture of my test setup.

Picture shows the layout of my test city. I have all work areas in one location in the southeast corner of the city, 99% of my residential area a good distance away, and a single 6-person low-income home at the end of a dead end street that is at 5/6 residents. At the end of the shift (6AM), every car that is created with a worker on his/her way home picks the closest open residential home, which happens to be the one at the end of that dead end. Even after the slot is filled, cars that have already been created still head up the dead-end street. Only newly created cars after that slot had been filled go directly to the larger residential area. The cars that didn't must reach their destination (the house at the end of the street) before realizing it is full, and then heading to the next closest residential plot which is in the main section of town.

Youtube video showing the problem.
I just have to say: holy cow. Kudos to you, you've clearly put a lot of thought and effort into analyzing how the simulation works.
 

HarvardAce

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
233
0
71
Simcity simulates actual cities like Grid simulates car racing. Simcity simulates actual cities just like the Sims simulated actual people; it's not meant to be 100% accurate. It's meant to be cutesy and satirical.

I'm not expecting it to be a perfect simulation. However, they touted GlassBox as some mythical engine that would enable them to simulate a large city with tens of thousands of agents. Instead, the shortcuts that they made in the engine result in traffic and other problems in cities that should have minimal or no traffic problems, and instead require convoluted workarounds that trick the (lack of) AI into doing the right thing.
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
I'm not expecting it to be a perfect simulation. However, they touted GlassBox as some mythical engine that would enable them to simulate a large city with tens of thousands of agents. Instead, the shortcuts that they made in the engine result in traffic and other problems in cities that should have minimal or no traffic problems, and instead require convoluted workarounds that trick the (lack of) AI into doing the right thing.

True. Unfortunately it seems every game released these days by anyone is full of hyperbole wrapped in PR. Like the MoH guy said, it doesn't have to be authentic....it only needs to feel authentic. Of course his game sucked so take it for what its worth. Bottom line, to make most people happy EA only needs to make Simcity feel authentic, even if under the hood all there is all kinds of cheating going on. Simulation is a whole other thing haha.
 

BigDH01

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2005
1,630
82
91
True. Unfortunately it seems every game released these days by anyone is full of hyperbole wrapped in PR. Like the MoH guy said, it doesn't have to be authentic....it only needs to feel authentic. Of course his game sucked so take it for what its worth. Bottom line, to make most people happy EA only needs to make Simcity feel authentic, even if under the hood all there is all kinds of cheating going on. Simulation is a whole other thing haha.

It looks as if the developers used some poor logic for pathfinding which makes traffic a disaster (which may limit city size in the same way that 1UPT limited production speed in Civ 5). To cover for this, we see phantom citizens to make it appear as if your cities actually contain people thereby turning the traffic and issues into an approximation. If we are just going to approximate when the cities get large, why use Glassbox at all? What was wrong with SC4 + NAM. At least it's an approximation that works and scales to millions of residents.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
I actually prefer a representation. I don't care about individuals. Time is also incredibly sped up so the whole "this is a real functioning world" thing is blown.
 

HarvardAce

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
233
0
71

I saw that, and I think it was a misconception from what EA/Maxis was saying that was then perpetrated across the internet. Everything I saw from EA/Maxis made it clear (at least to me) that it was the regional interactions that were being computed by the server, and everything within your city limits is handled by your own PC. Where the idea arose that the simulation of the city itself was farmed out to a server is unknown, but I saw that misconception everywhere I looked.

The question then is whether the regional interactions are important to the game and/or if they can be done internally. Given the smaller city sizes, I think the regional interaction is important, so I don't think you'd have much of a game if you only had a single city on its own -- you could build a city or two, but the game is much more fun if you specialize and have multiple cities in a region helping each other.

For the other part, is there really that much calculation that needs to be done by the servers for regional interaction? If you play in a private region by yourself, then nothing outside of the city you are currently playing is really updating, so any services provided by another city in the region could be treated as static, updated whenever you start playing that city again, so I think you could make a reasonable argument that there isn't a need to leverage server resources.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Not really caught in a lie as everyone knew it was untrue corporate BS to begin with.

The question then is whether the regional interactions are important to the game and/or if they can be done internally. Given the smaller city sizes, I think the regional interaction is important

Sounds like if they removed an artifical limitation then you wouldn't have this problem.
 

greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,007
0
71
Have any of the issues been fixed yet as far as bugs and server stability?

Given the game was released about a week ago and the #1 item to addressed was server stability, I would think any bug fixes will be about a month away.

I say this as once the servers are stable, the developers will take some time to rest as I suspect they have been working non-stop for a week, so want a weekend. Then any bugs will get started on, but they will hopefully aim to have them working as close to 100% instead of just rushing fixes out (like the game was, complete with bugs).

Personally, going by the list of bugs, and how EA generally moves most of the developers onto new projects once a release is done, I would not be very surprised if most of the bugs will not be addressed until the game is old enough to be on sale at 30% off rrp.
 

Phobic9

Golden Member
Apr 6, 2001
1,822
0
71
Initially, even though there were serious and obvious problems with the servers, I did enjoy the game. As of now though, I'm at the point where I feel like I've been duped. Why? Well the game just feels broken the more you play. I have been avoiding most of the complaining and/or forums because deep down I wanted to make sure my purchase was justified. The more I've played this game, the more obvious it is to see how things aren't "supposed" to be.

Traffic is simply borked. The AI makes me want to scratch my head. Hell, even trying to play the game and ignore all these issues has become a chore because they took out cheetah speed. I finally went to a few forums today and it seems my complaints are being validated because most people aren't talking about how the game is fun but how broken it is. It is overblown? Yeah probably but there's a lot of justified complaints as well.

Lesson learned (again) I guess. For the curious, if you want to try this game, just wait. I had money to blow and if I could get it back I totally would.

Sorry for the blog-ish type post but really, (most) people aren't exactly whining for no reason.
 
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