Skylake platform and Windows 7

[VirtualLarry]

Here's ASrock's helpful little site, detailing the issues and workarounds required to install Win7 on a Skylake platform.

http://www.asrock.com/microsite/Win7Install/

IMHO, it's truly screwed up of Intel to drop support for USB2.0 controller fall-back compatibility for their USB3.0 ports on Skylake, considering support was there on Z97.

 

[zir_blazer]

I'm surprised this is such a big issue. Back with Windows XP, we had nLite that allowed us to easily make our own customs ISOs and install CDs with both registry tweaks, integrated Hotfixes and Drivers. Installing WXP using the SATA Controller in AHCI Mode required either a Floppy Drive or doing the latter. I don't think that it is impossible to do so with Windows 7 - AsRock solution for installing from an USB Flash Drive seems to be exactly doing that. And actually, it would be a rather good idea tu customize an ISO every now and then so you don't have to download bucketloads of stuff from Windows Update on a clean install.

 

[ignatzatsonic]

That's Asrock.

What workarounds are provided by Asus and Gigabyte and how well do they work?

I'm surprised I haven't seen more about this in the last month.

Asrock has a "PS/2 simulator" choice in their UEFI advanced configuration that supposedly allows a USB mouse and keyboard to function during the Win 7 install, as if they were PS/2 devices.

Does it work? Work sometimes? Who has tried it?

I'm going to build Skylake and likely will go with Win 7, so this is a significant issue. I could go buy a PS/2 mouse and keyboard, but I'd rather not.

 

[matricks]

Back with Windows XP, we had nLite that allowed us to easily make our own customs ISOs and install CDs with both registry tweaks, integrated Hotfixes and Drivers.

There have been tools, but they haven't been as widespread as nLite was. Probably because it was much easier to do this without third party tools when Microsoft introduced the Automated Installation Kit with Vista (Assessment and Deployment Kit from Win8 onwards). Some names I have come across are RT7Lite (I think) and Dism++. This thread also led me to discover that the nLite developer has started a new project, NTLite, that provides a tool similar to nLite for Windows NT 6.x versions, which might be of interest in this thread.

 

[zir_blazer]

That's Asrock.

What workarounds are provided by Asus and Gigabyte and how well do they work?

You don't really need specific manufacturer support to do this. Its probable than the AsRock ISO modifications should work in all other Skylake Motherboards too, can't think of a reason why it should since Chipset Drivers should be the same for all of them.

Asrock has a "PS/2 simulator" choice in their UEFI advanced configuration that supposedly allows a USB mouse and keyboard to function during the Win 7 install, as if they were PS/2 devices.

Does it work? Work sometimes? Who has tried it?

Legacy USB Emulation has existed for YEARS. And its CRITICAL for Motherboards that don't provide PS/2.
The actual issue here was installing from an USB Flash Drive, the other was a non issue at all.

 

[escrow4]

Why are you buying 2015 era hardware with a 2009 era OS? That is the same as buying a 5960X and using XP.

 

[ignatzatsonic]

You don't really need specific manufacturer support to do this. Its probable than the AsRock ISO modifications should work in all other Skylake Motherboards too, can't think of a reason why it should since Chipset Drivers should be the same for all of them.


Legacy USB Emulation has existed for YEARS. And its CRITICAL for Motherboards that don't provide PS/2. The actual issue here was installing from an USB Flash Drive, the other was a non issue at all.

Thanks for that.

I did try the modified ISO method suggested by the Asrock link. It appeared to go OK, but when I tried to put it on a USB drive, Rufus barked and said it was not a valid ISO. Hmmm...?

I may not even buy an Asrock board, but I wanted to see if the modification worked out OK.

I can't recall ever using "Legacy USB emulation" and am completely unfamiliar with it. Any shortcomings or complications likely or possible? I'll probably need some way to get by the PS/2 issue as there is at least a 50% chance I'll use Win 7 on Skylake.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Why are you buying 2015 era hardware with a 2009 era OS? That is the same as buying a 5960X and using XP.

My 4770K is running Win7, and I have a PII X6 running XP.
Come at me bro!

 

[John Connor]

So this is only ASrock?

Does this mean USB 2.0 won't work on other boards?

I'm about to build a system with a Gigabyte board and a i5 6600k and the case has USB 2.0 ports as well as 3.0 ports.

I won't worry about the install as I always use optical, but want to know if USB 2.0 will work with Skylake?

 

[Mem]

Why are you buying 2015 era hardware with a 2009 era OS? That is the same as buying a 5960X and using XP.

Lol I was thinking about this as well, end of the day Win7 is on the way out so they better move forward or stop bitching .

 

[Dahak]

So this is only ASrock?

Does this mean USB 2.0 won't work on other boards?

I'm about to build a system with a Gigabyte board and a i5 6600k and the case has USB 2.0 ports as well as 3.0 ports.

I won't worry about the install as I always use optical, but want to know if USB 2.0 will work with Skylake?

It think it may be more for just installing windows 7 from a usb drive as the chipset does not have the old EHCI controller anymore (for usb2.0) if I understand correctly.

So what that means is the usb3.0 ports wont fall back to 2.0 when there is no usb3 driver installed.

To get around this, you have to add the usb 3.0 drivers into the win7 install media for to boot properly (boot.wim and install.wim)

 

[ShintaiDK]

100 series chipsets still got USB 2.0 ports.

 

[Ketchup]

Lol I was thinking about this as well, end of the day Win7 is on the way out so they better move forward or stop bitching .

I hate to agree with Mem (that was sarcasm) but I have VMs running Windows 8.1 and Windows 10. My desktop is still on 7, but I ran the free upgrade on another drive so it is ready when I am. A laptop is also running 10 just fine.

As much as I like 7, if I were building a new computer I would not buy an OS that is already on extended support.

 

[Dahak]

100 series chipsets still got USB 2.0 ports.

I had to find where it is, but found it now, in the AnandTech Launch Article
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/intel-skylake-review-6700k-6600k-ddr4-ddr3-ipc-6th-generation/5

One big shock will be for Windows 7 users. By default, the Z170 chipset and BIOS will not support full USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller (EHCI) mode. This means that for a number of circumstances, USB devices will not work unless an XHCI environment in play.

Which means that unless the windows 7 installer is aware of the XHCI controller (which it is not) it will not install from a usb 2 or usb 3 port, unless you integrate the usb3.0 drivers into the install media, as the usb 2 ports are being run off the XHCI controller instead of the old EHCI one

 

[John Connor]

It think it may be more for just installing windows 7 from a usb drive as the chipset does not have the old EHCI controller anymore (for usb2.0) if I understand correctly.

So what that means is the usb3.0 ports wont fall back to 2.0 when there is no usb3 driver installed.

To get around this, you have to add the usb 3.0 drivers into the win7 install media for to boot properly (boot.wim and install.wim)

That makes sense. Thanks!

 

[zir_blazer]

I think that the root of the issue is that people uses USB 2.0 and 3.0 as if that's all what there is. USB 2.0 has been traditionally provided by an EHCI Controller, with a OHCI/UHCI companion for USB 1.1 compatibility. USB 3.0 uses a xHCI Controller, which can do all by itself effectively superceding the other 3, assuming you have Drivers for it. Since Skylake Chipsets supposedly have only xHCI Controllers, the USB 2.0 ports that are provided are actually USB 3.0 capable ports artificially capped - they are still under an xHCI Controller. That's the best explanation that I can come up with.

Also, it seems that Intel already did this before with Haswell Chipsets. You have the Q85 Chipset, which is in an odd position. All others have 8 USB 2.0 ports and at most 6 3.0, while Q85 has 10 2.0 and 4 3.0. Its possible than two of those are a limited xHCI Controller, otherwise the arrangement doesn't make sense. May be worth testing if you can use a vanilla W7 SP1 USB Pendrive to boot and test all of Q85 USB 2.0 Ports, two of them shouldn't be able to work with it if my theory is correct.

 

[fire400]

not surprised at all. on the contrary, software engineers/developers of older hardware components are finding it equally difficult to build support drivers/software for win10 x64/x32.

anyway,
another alternative solution is to use a USB 3.0/eSATA add-on card(s) via the PCI / PCI-e slots, and disable the onboard USB controller if the system is experiencing crashing during run time on real time OS environments with Win7 SP1.

as far as:
"Why are you buying 2015 era hardware with a 2009 era OS? That is the same as buying a 5960X and using XP."
some people want 'faster' on older OS.
guess if we can afford skylake, we can afford a new OS; or perhaps to just acquire less-new parts that will accommodate respective support for our software needs, that may still offer 'fast' but not always 'fastest.'
for whatever reasons, almost everything will be tried and tested, by someone, somewhere in the world.

 

[escrow4]

not surprised at all. on the contrary, software engineers/developers of older hardware components are finding it equally difficult to build support drivers/software for win10 x64/x32.

anyway,
another alternative solution is to use a USB 3.0/eSATA add-on card(s) via the PCI / PCI-e slots, and disable the onboard USB controller if the system is experiencing crashing during run time on real time OS environments with Win7 SP1.

as far as:
"Why are you buying 2015 era hardware with a 2009 era OS? That is the same as buying a 5960X and using XP."
some people want 'faster' on older OS.
guess if we can afford skylake, we can afford a new OS; or perhaps to just acquire less-new parts that will accommodate respective support for our software needs, that may still offer 'fast' but not always 'fastest.'
for whatever reasons, almost everything will be tried and tested, by someone, somewhere in the world.

You won't have faster on an old OS that doesn't have optimized drivers or kernel optimizations.

 

[John Connor]

When I build my new computer I will be uing Win 7 and a 6600 i5. I plan on giving sysprep a try and hope that works. Otherwise I'll have to spend hours installing the OS, all my crap and 55 GB of FS2004. I really don't want to do that. Ugh.

 

[Omar F1]

Thanks for bringing this up.

I'm also planning for a Skylake upgrade (mainly for SATAIII/m2, still on X58) and would still run Win7 for a few years more. Can someone please confirm if PS/2 Emulator is also available in Gigabyte's bios/UEFI?

 

[Compman55]

Question......most motherboards offer a UEFI shell command prompt. Is there a way to load proper USB 3 drives in there BEFORE starting the windows 7 installation?

 

[zir_blazer]

Question......most motherboards offer a UEFI shell command prompt. Is there a way to load proper USB 3 drives in there BEFORE starting the windows 7 installation?

Actually, that should be possible, the thing is that you need someone to provide you with a runtime/resident EFI Driver for the Skylake Chipsets xHCI Controller, and nearly no one provides EFI Drivers even when they have lots of potential (Only NVMe has a standalone EFI Driver).
Besides, you need to figure out a way to load the EFI Driver from either inside UEFI or the shell. UEFI can only directly read data from partitions marked as ESP (EFI System Partitions) and formatted with FAT32, unless you also load File System Drivers. Only depending on the flexibility of your Firmware, you may be able to partition an USB Flash Drive, make the ESP partition there, and check if the Firmware can be pointed to load it. Otherwise, you will have to use a Live CD to pre-format the HD, make the ESP, and copy the EFI Driver there. Its not a straightforward solution.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Actually, that should be possible, the thing is that you need someone to provide you with a runtime/resident EFI Driver for the Skylake Chipsets xHCI Controller, and nearly no one provides EFI Drivers even when they have lots of potential (Only NVMe has a standalone EFI Driver).
Besides, you need to figure out a way to load the EFI Driver from either inside UEFI or the shell. UEFI can only directly read data from partitions marked as ESP (EFI System Partitions) and formatted with FAT32, unless you also load File System Drivers. Only depending on the flexibility of your Firmware, you may be able to partition an USB Flash Drive, make the ESP partition there, and check if the Firmware can be pointed to load it. Otherwise, you will have to use a Live CD to pre-format the HD, make the ESP, and copy the EFI Driver there. Its not a straightforward solution.

That's not going to help Win7's installer any, and the UEFI already supports the mobo's USB3.0 ports for mouse and kbd, so you're not gaining anything by loading USB3.0 EFI drivers.

 

[zir_blazer]

That's not going to help Win7's installer any, and the UEFI already supports the mobo's USB3.0 ports for mouse and kbd, so you're not gaining anything by loading USB3.0 EFI drivers.

Support for doing what I said exist, however, it could be true that W7 itself has no support to actually work in that fashion. It is a rather unused feature. You can make an UEFI Runtime Driver that is loaded by the UEFI Firmware, which could be then used by an OS. However, I suppose that you also need a way for the OS to detect UEFI provided Drivers, which I doubt W7 can do (Check UEFI GOP, its a very basic form where the OS gets the framebuffer resolution than the Firmware sets then transfer to it).
Actually, I believe that since UEFI is rather universal, instead of having to provide different OS specific Drivers (Linux, Windows, OS X), you could make a sort of backend UEFI Runtime Driver and a frontend configuration one for the different OSes (Conceptually identical to paravirtualized Drivers on VMs). This would look a lot like going back to the 80s where the BIOS itself provided most of the Hardware interaction via Interrupts...