Solved! Slot and compatibility confusion

[craftech]

I am a video editor.
I have tried researching this before buying and am getting nowhere.
MB - GA-Z97X-UD3H BIOS F7

i5-4690K OC to 4.2GHz

32GB DDR3 @667

EVGA GTX 900 in PCIeX16 slot

SIIG Firewire card in PCI slot

NOTE: *PCIeX8 shares with PCIEx16. PCIEx4 shares with PCIeX1. All PCI1 will be unavailable when PCIx4 is installed. Set BIOS to X4 if use PCIX4 card.

Intel SATA SSD 730 240GB in a SATA slot.

Three hard drives in SATA slots including slots 4 and 5
M.2 PCIe free

*Note: M.2, SATA Express, and SATA3 4/5 connectors will become unavailable when an M.2 SSD is installed. [You can only use one of these at a time]

OS Windows 7 Pro. UEFI
MY editing software will NOT run on Windows 10.

I would like to have either an NVMe Scratch Drive (working drive) for files I am editing in conjunction with my existing SSD SATA OS drive and then move them over to my hard drives for storage or reverse the two if I can boot from the NVMe which I don't think is possible'
But, it doesn't appear that the MB will recognize NVMe in slot M.2 only AHCI.
I think that leaves only a PCIe add-in card to hold the NVMe SSD, but the slot configuration confuses me.

Can any of you
1. Let me know if an add-in card will work in my setup and am I right to think they are pretty much all the same?
2. If my only option is a scratch or working drive NVMe (no boot drive NVMe) which one would give me the best throughput assuming my setup wouldn't limit it's potential?
Thanks,
John
Craftech Productions

 

[NewMaxx]

1. Add-in cards pretty much just forward the traces. They're cheap and are pretty much the same. It will work for you - at x4 PCIe 3.0 in your 2nd PCIe slot (GPU will run at x8 - not an issue) or x4 PCIe 2.0 in the other PCIe slot. The latter limit is not an issue for slower NVMe drives, "Budget NVMe" as per my (NewMaxx) guides.
2. You can possibly modify the BIOS to get NVMe to work in a bootable fashion (via adapter) but otherwise probably not from a quick glance at your board. Limitations on bandwidth are as per my response to #1.

 

[craftech]

1. Add-in cards pretty much just forward the traces. They're cheap and are pretty much the same. It will work for you - at x4 PCIe 3.0 in your 2nd PCIe slot (GPU will run at x8 - not an issue) or x4 PCIe 2.0 in the other PCIe slot. The latter limit is not an issue for slower NVMe drives, "Budget NVMe" as per my (NewMaxx) guides.
2. You can possibly modify the BIOS to get NVMe to work in a bootable fashion (via adapter) but otherwise probably not from a quick glance at your board. Limitations on bandwidth are as per my response to #1.

Thanks for the response. I just got an add-in card, heatsink, and a Sabrent NVMe SSD 1TB today.

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Rocket-Internal-Performance-SB-ROCKET-1TB/dp/B07LGF54XR

The BIOS recognizes it as Sabrent NVMe and it shows up in the boot list. The problem is Windows 7 won't. It attempts to find drivers and then Fails. I am running Windows 7 Pro.
I tried it several times and it shows up as Other Devices / PCI Device / no drivers installed. Windows can't find drivers and Sabrent has none on it's website. Switching slots made no difference. I removed a PCI Firewire card next to the PCIe x 4 last slot in case they were shared. No difference. Can't find drivers. No drive shows up.

So then I tried the Sabrent in the M.2 slot on the motherboard and removed the hard drives in shared connectors SATA3 4/5 and the same thing happened. Shows up in the BIOS as an NVMe and also in the boot list, but Windows 7 attempts to find drivers and it fails. No drive in Disk Management. Uninstall failed PCI device and refresh. Same error.

The board is GA-Z97X-UD3H-Bk Rev. 1.2 BIOS F7

GA-Z97X-UD3H-BK (rev. 1.2) Overview | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ...

www.gigabyte.com

 

[NewMaxx]

NVMe drives don't require drivers generally. However, you do need an updated Windows 7 install to support NVMe devices, there might be a hotfix to add native driver support for PCIe/NVMe (Google it). FYI in Device Manager it should show up as a drive, however it should also be under Storage controllers - the SSD controller itself is considered a storage controller. If the OS lacks a native NVMe driver for it, it won't work. You may also need the Intel RST driver and/or SATA/RAID driver (yes even for NVMe) and chipset driver perhaps, available on Gigabyte's site, although you likely already have these.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You need the NVMe support HotFix from MS, which I heard that they oh so helpfully "pulled" off the market.

 

[craftech]

You need the NVMe support HotFix from MS, which I heard that they oh so helpfully "pulled" off the market.

Thanks for that Larry. I searched that subject and found this:

Are MS NVMe hotfixes a must for Windows 7 on Samsung or Intel NVMe Drive?

social.technet.microsoft.com

This suggests (the last few posts) that the Samsung Windows 7 driver can be utilized in place of the hotfixes regardless of the NVMe unless I am reading it wrong.

There are third party sited that have the hotfixes, but I am a little nervous about downloading them.

NVMe Hotfix - OSBuilder

osbuilder.osdeploy.com

Or: Maye I should return the Sabrent and get a Samsung 970 Evo just for the Windows 7 driver?

SSD 970 EVO NVMe® M.2 1TB Memory & Storage - MZ-V7E1T0BW | Samsung US

Learn more about Samsung SSD 970 PRO NVMe® M.2 1TB with the innovative Samsung V-NAND technology and a 5-year limited warranty.

www.samsung.com

What do you think about these options?

 

[NewMaxx]

I actually have a link to an extracted Samsung driver here but again, NVMe drivers are for the controller on the SSD. There are generic NVMe drivers available, for example for the Phison drives there's one included with this tool, but I think fundamental OS support is a requirement. It may be possible to find the hotfix on an OEM site (check the win7\kb folder inside the archive) as well.

 

[craftech]

I actually have a link to an extracted Samsung driver here but again, NVMe drivers are for the controller on the SSD. There are generic NVMe drivers available, for example for the Phison drives there's one included with this tool, but I think fundamental OS support is a requirement. It may be possible to find the hotfix on an OEM site (check the win7\kb folder inside the archive) as well.

I looked at that Lenovo site. The notes said,
"Windows® 7 does not include NVM Express (NVMe) support during installation. If you use NVMe, you might experience issues when installing Windows 7. The white paper explains instructions for inserting Windows updates for NVMe support and then deploying the Windows 7 image. "
Does that mean it only applies to a fresh install?

John

 

[NewMaxx]

I looked at that Lenovo site. The notes said,
"Windows® 7 does not include NVM Express (NVMe) support during installation. If you use NVMe, you might experience issues when installing Windows 7. The white paper explains instructions for inserting Windows updates for NVMe support and then deploying the Windows 7 image. "
Does that mean it only applies to a fresh install?

John

Their tool is designed to make it possible by having the drivers/update in-line, but within the archive you can access the MSI update manually. Unfortunately I don't have a Windows 7 system to test it on - it is a legitimate update, I just mean maybe Microsoft blocks it, no idea (not sure they could offline but who knows). You can see the update in the kb folder: KB2990941, which is the original hotfix number. So one way or another you should be able to get Windows 7 to work. I'm not sure if you can install the hotfix on a working install (non-NVMe) and then clone over and have it work but theoretically that should work.

 

[craftech]

Their tool is designed to make it possible by having the drivers/update in-line, but within the archive you can access the MSI update manually. Unfortunately I don't have a Windows 7 system to test it on - it is a legitimate update, I just mean maybe Microsoft blocks it, no idea (not sure they could offline but who knows). You can see the update in the kb folder: KB2990941, which is the original hotfix number. So one way or another you should be able to get Windows 7 to work. I'm not sure if you can install the hotfix on a working install (non-NVMe) and then clone over and have it work but theoretically that should work.

Thanks NewMaxx
I also saw it here:

Recommended AHCI/RAID and NVMe Drivers

Preliminary notes: Many AHCI and RAID users are unsure or don’t even know, which AHCI/RAID driver will give them the best results regarding stability and performance. They either don’t have the time or are not interested to do intensive tests comparing the different types and versions of the...

www.win-raid.com

What do you think about returning the Sabrent and getting the Samsung which includes a W7 driver?

 

[NewMaxx]

Ha, it's NewMaxx and not Larry in this case, but anyway...

You still fundamentally come down to the same problem. Fresh install with in-line drivers, or an attempt to install the driver and migrate/clone the OS over to the NVMe. If you can get the hotfix to install (manually - it's provided in the kb folder for Lenovo as I stated) you can probably migrate just as easily to the Sabrent Rocket as Windows will have a generic/default NVMe driver. Microsoft purposefully wanted people to upgrade to Windows 10, and I can give you QUITE the history lesson on that as I worked with HMB back on Windows 8.1 and mysteriously support for it was moved to Windows 10 only. So it's a pain in the neck.

 

[craftech]

Ha, it's NewMaxx and not Larry in this case, but anyway...

You still fundamentally come down to the same problem. Fresh install with in-line drivers, or an attempt to install the driver and migrate/clone the OS over to the NVMe. If you can get the hotfix to install (manually - it's provided in the kb folder for Lenovo as I stated) you can probably migrate just as easily to the Sabrent Rocket as Windows will have a generic/default NVMe driver. Microsoft purposefully wanted people to upgrade to Windows 10, and I can give you QUITE the history lesson on that as I worked with HMB back on Windows 8.1 and mysteriously support for it was moved to Windows 10 only. So it's a pain in the neck.

Actually, I am not sure I am going to clone the OS drive over to the NVMe. I have a pretty fast Intel SATA SSD as an OS drive and I was thinking of using the NVMe to render video files TO. A scratch srive or working drive. I don't think it would be any faster at rendering the other way around.

But I need to be able to format it first so Windows 7 has to see the drive for me to do that. If it works maybe I'll clone it later and try it by reversing the drives..

I'll do a backup and try your suggestion. Will report back.
Thanks,
John

 

[NewMaxx]

Actually, I am not sure I am going to clone the OS drive over to the NVMe. I have a pretty fast Intel SATA SSD as an OS drive and I was thinking of using the NVMe to render video files TO. A scratch srive or working drive. I don't think it would be any faster at rendering the other way around.

But I need to be able to format it first so Windows 7 has to see the drive for me to do that. If it works maybe I'll clone it later and try it by reversing the drives..

In that case I'd just install the hotfix from Lenovo if possible (x64 I imagine) and see if the hardware shows up. It's literally the hotfix that Microsoft pulled - OEM builders can still provide it for legacy support. In fact that's where I got the extracted legacy Samsung drivers too, Dell and Lenovo are both goldmines for that stuff. We complicated this unnecessarily.

 

[craftech]

In that case I'd just install the hotfix from Lenovo if possible (x64 I imagine) and see if the hardware shows up. It's literally the hotfix that Microsoft pulled - OEM builders can still provide it for legacy support. In fact that's where I got the extracted legacy Samsung drivers too, Dell and Lenovo are both goldmines for that stuff. We complicated this unnecessarily.

Follow-Up:
1. Installed the hotfix from the Lenovo archive
2. Put the Sabrent on the add-in PCIe card
3. Installed in the last PCIe 4X slot
4. Re-Booted - check BIOS for drive presence - OK
5. Booted Windows 7 - NVMe drive controller installed perfetly. Standard NVM Express Controller
6. Check Disk Management - Sabrent drive showed up.

I cannot thank you all enough.
Two questions:
1. Do you want me to upload the Hotfix somewhere on this site and if so where?
2. Before I format the Sabrent, do you think I should return it and get the Samsung 970 Evo. Some Amazon reviewers reported early failure of the Sabrent. But I think they changed the controller since then??

 

[NewMaxx]

Glad it worked! Sorry we seemed to have a communication barrier on this. It's a pretty easy fix if you just want it as a storage drive!

I did download the fix and will archive it and upload it on my site. I keep tons of SSD resources there, but it's not a bad idea to mirror it.

You can check the hardware on the Sabrent with some effort, I linked to a tool earlier that has a driver that allows you to check the drive (before you partition it). Just read the first part here where I link to the tool and a translated readme. This is optional but if you want to know the exact hardware, it will tell you.

The Rocket is like any other E12-based drive (there are dozens of them) which has a robust controller, DRAM, and very high TBW (warrantied writes). Plus a five-year warranty if you registered it with Sabrent. I wouldn't be too concerned with early failure. It performs somewhat similarly to the 970 EVO, but inherently the 970 EVO Plus has replaced the regular EVO and is priced insanely for the most part. You likely don't even need the performance of the Rocket let alone an EVO.

 

[craftech]

Glad it worked! Sorry we seemed to have a communication barrier on this. It's a pretty easy fix if you just want it as a storage drive!

I did download the fix and will archive it and upload it on my site. I keep tons of SSD resources there, but it's not a bad idea to mirror it.

You can check the hardware on the Sabrent with some effort, I linked to a tool earlier that has a driver that allows you to check the drive (before you partition it). Just read the first part here where I link to the tool and a translated readme. This is optional but if you want to know the exact hardware, it will tell you.

The Rocket is like any other E12-based drive (there are dozens of them) which has a robust controller, DRAM, and very high TBW (warrantied writes). Plus a five-year warranty if you registered it with Sabrent. I wouldn't be too concerned with early failure. It performs somewhat similarly to the 970 EVO, but inherently the 970 EVO Plus has replaced the regular EVO and is priced insanely for the most part. You likely don't even need the performance of the Rocket let alone an EVO.

Thanks NewMaxx I truly appreciate your insight and especially all the help (as well as Larry's). I'll probably hold off on installing the aftermarket heatsink and sticky insulator I bought until I mess with the drive more. In case I have to return it I don't want the label to peel off (voids the warranty).
Regards,
John

 

[NewMaxx]

Yep, good luck. Technically they can't void the warranty in the US that way but I wouldn't risk it, no need to litigate over a SSD.

 

[craftech]

Yep, good luck. Technically they can't void the warranty in the US that way but I wouldn't risk it, no need to litigate over a SSD.

So I partitioned it as a single MBR simple volume (same as all the others) and ran Crystal Disk Mark on it. The results are about half of what is claimed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 6.0.2 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 1578.034 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 1543.229 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 8) : 873.496 MB/s [ 213255.9 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 8) : 1516.347 MB/s [ 370201.9 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 744.832 MB/s [ 181843.8 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 716.649 MB/s [ 174963.1 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 53.010 MB/s [ 12941.9 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 289.259 MB/s [ 70619.9 IOPS]

Test : 1024 MiB [V: 0.0% (0.1/953.9 GiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2020/01/18 15:06:03
OS : Windows 7 Professional SP1 [6.1 Build 7601] (x64)
===============================================================
I checked the BIOS
Changed the PCH from Auto to X4, but the results were the same so Auto probably
configured the speed of the PCIe slot correctly.
PCIe slot configuration is also set to Auto. Other choices are Gen 1, Gen 2, Gen 3.
DMI Generation 2 speed - Enabled
Other PCI Device Rom Priority is set to UEFI Op Rom (other choices are Legacy Rom)
Dynamic Storage Accelerator is disabled, but I think that is only enabled if you have C-State issues from Overclocking.

Could it be that it lacks a specific Sabrent driver for Windows 7?
Or is that the best I can expect with Windows 7?

John

 

[NewMaxx]

What is the link speed? CrystalDiskInfo will tell you this. Your 4K results (most important) are excellent. Edit: I forgot you were on Z97 - are you using an adapter in one of the chipset PCIe slots? If so, the speed will be limited by x4 PCIe 2.0. This would limit you to 4x5Gb = 20Gb * 8b/10b encoding = 16Gb * .9 (I/O overhead) = 14.4Gb / 8 = 1.8 GB/s. Actual performance may be lower since chipset bandwidth is shared.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Thanks @NewMaxx for your insightful contributions, and providing a link to that driver!

 

[craftech]

What is the link speed? CrystalDiskInfo will tell you this. Your 4K results (most important) are excellent. Edit: I forgot you were on Z97 - are you using an adapter in one of the chipset PCIe slots? If so, the speed will be limited by x4 PCIe 2.0. This would limit you to 4x5Gb = 20Gb * 8b/10b encoding = 16Gb * .9 (I/O overhead) = 14.4Gb / 8 = 1.8 GB/s. Actual performance may be lower since chipset bandwidth is shared.

By "link speed" do you mean "interval time" 5 seconds or the 1GiB?
I am using an adapter in the PCI Express x4 slot It is PCI Express 2.0

If I clear SATA ports 4/5 (both have hard drives) and use the M.2 on the motherboard I am not sure if the path is different. Looks different on the diagram. Page 8 https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-Z97X-UD3H-BK-rev-12#ov

There is only a video card in the PCIe x16 slot and the adapter in the last PCIe x4 slot. I listed the rules in my first post which were:
NOTE: *PCIeX8 shares with PCIEx16. PCIEx4 shares with PCIeX1. All PCI1 will be unavailable when PCIx4 is installed. Set BIOS to X4 if use PCIX4 card which I did.

The diagram shows 3 PCI Express x 1 OR 1 PCI Express X4 on the same bus
The diagram shows the PCI Bus connected to the PCIe to PCI bridge. Without a NOTE and looking at the diagram it looks like it is independent of the last PCIe x4 slot where the adapter is plugged in.
Page 8 https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-Z97X-UD3H-BK-rev-12#ov

I heard about a CSM setting but couldn't find it. Literally found where CSM was hidden, it was in the Windows 8 Features section, had to change from "Other OS" to Windows 8 or windows 8 WHQL to show up. Not sure if that setting needs to be messed with. Might only be significant if the NVMe is a boot drive.
John

 

[NewMaxx]

If you run CrystalDiskInfo and check the drive, it will tell you the Transfer Mode (which is what I meant by link speed). The drive is capable of x4 PCIe 3.0, but if you're using an adapter on a chipset PCIe slot (not a GPU slot) then you are limited to x4 PCIe 2.0. CDI will reflect this information. That means the PCIEX4 slot. If you use it in a GPU slot it can use direct CPU lanes and hit its maximum speed, that would be the PCIEX8 slot. There's only 16 lanes from CPU so the primary GPU/PCIe slot (PCIEX16) will run at x8 when doing this. Keep in mind this is NOT an issue - x8 PCIe 3.0 is plenty for any current discrete GPU.

 

[craftech]

If you run CrystalDiskInfo and check the drive, it will tell you the Transfer Mode (which is what I meant by link speed). The drive is capable of x4 PCIe 3.0, but if you're using an adapter on a chipset PCIe slot (not a GPU slot) then you are limited to x4 PCIe 2.0. CDI will reflect this information. That means the PCIEX4 slot. If you use it in a GPU slot it can use direct CPU lanes and hit its maximum speed, that would be the PCIEX8 slot. There's only 16 lanes from CPU so the primary GPU/PCIe slot (PCIEX16) will run at x8 when doing this. Keep in mind this is NOT an issue - x8 PCIe 3.0 is plenty for any current discrete GPU.

CrystalDisk INFO. Ok. The drive does NOT show up in that program. The other drives show up, but not that one even if I rescan. If I plug the adapter card into a X8 GPU slot the manual says the X16 slot where the video card is will be halved.

 

[NewMaxx]

CrystalDisk INFO. Ok. The drive does NOT show up in that program. The other drives show up, but not that one even if I rescan. If I plug the adapter card into a X8 GPU slot the manual says the X16 slot where the video card is will be halved.

I also use the program Hard Disk Sentinel. Might do the trick.

Yes, if you use the 2nd PCIe slot the video card will run at x8. That's the only way to get full performance from the drive. It's not a big issue either way: sequentials aren't so critical that x4 PCIe 2.0 is a huge limitation in most cases, but likewise any GPU on the market at x8 PCIe 3.0 will be just fine. I run my GTX 1080 at x8, there's no loss in FPS, I can assure you. The RTX 2080 Ti tends to lose up to ~3% FPS. There are articles that cover this if you want more information.

 

[craftech]

I also use the program Hard Disk Sentinel. Might do the trick.

Yes, if you use the 2nd PCIe slot the video card will run at x8. That's the only way to get full performance from the drive. It's not a big issue either way: sequentials aren't so critical that x4 PCIe 2.0 is a huge limitation in most cases, but likewise any GPU on the market at x8 PCIe 3.0 will be just fine. I run my GTX 1080 at x8, there's no loss in FPS, I can assure you. The RTX 2080 Ti tends to lose up to ~3% FPS. There are articles that cover this if you want more information.

I installed the trial version of Hard Disk Sentinel and it doesn't show the Transfer Mode. Unless you have to may for the registration key first. NOt sure. Uninstalled it. I'll move the adapter around and get back. What about CSM in the BIOS with Windows 8 Features enabled?