Solved! Slot and compatibility confusion

[craftech]

I am a video editor.
I have tried researching this before buying and am getting nowhere.
MB - GA-Z97X-UD3H BIOS F7

i5-4690K OC to 4.2GHz

32GB DDR3 @667

EVGA GTX 900 in PCIeX16 slot

SIIG Firewire card in PCI slot

NOTE: *PCIeX8 shares with PCIEx16. PCIEx4 shares with PCIeX1. All PCI1 will be unavailable when PCIx4 is installed. Set BIOS to X4 if use PCIX4 card.

Intel SATA SSD 730 240GB in a SATA slot.

Three hard drives in SATA slots including slots 4 and 5
M.2 PCIe free

*Note: M.2, SATA Express, and SATA3 4/5 connectors will become unavailable when an M.2 SSD is installed. [You can only use one of these at a time]

OS Windows 7 Pro. UEFI
MY editing software will NOT run on Windows 10.

I would like to have either an NVMe Scratch Drive (working drive) for files I am editing in conjunction with my existing SSD SATA OS drive and then move them over to my hard drives for storage or reverse the two if I can boot from the NVMe which I don't think is possible'
But, it doesn't appear that the MB will recognize NVMe in slot M.2 only AHCI.
I think that leaves only a PCIe add-in card to hold the NVMe SSD, but the slot configuration confuses me.

Can any of you
1. Let me know if an add-in card will work in my setup and am I right to think they are pretty much all the same?
2. If my only option is a scratch or working drive NVMe (no boot drive NVMe) which one would give me the best throughput assuming my setup wouldn't limit it's potential?
Thanks,
John
Craftech Productions

 

[craftech]

Summary: For the average NVMe to work under Windows 7 the hotfix(es) must be applied. They have been removed from the Microsoft website, but are available here:

Microsoft Hotfix for Installing Windows 7 on NVMe - ThinkCentre - Lenovo Support US

pcsupport.lenovo.com

With the exception of possibly Samsung (who AFAIK are the only ones that provide a Windows 7 driver) the Microsoft NVM Standard Express Controller that is installed after the hotfix is probably the safest to use.

Crystal Disk Info will not see the drive, but Crystal Disk Mark will benchmark it. If you install generic drivers Crystal Disk Info will recognize the drive, but in my case both performance and reliability were compromised and it was very difficult for Crystal Disk Mark to even benchmark it at all. I would stick with the Microsoft driver under Windows 7.

I did not clone the drive to test it as a boot drive nor did I install Windows 7 on it. I used it as an add-on storage device. If I try that, I will update this.

Regards,
John

 

[craftech]

Summary: For the average NVMe to work under Windows 7 the hotfix(es) must be applied. They have been removed from the Microsoft website, but are available here:

Microsoft Hotfix for Installing Windows 7 on NVMe - ThinkCentre - Lenovo Support US

pcsupport.lenovo.com

With the exception of possibly Samsung (who AFAIK are the only ones that provide a Windows 7 driver) the Microsoft NVM Standard Express Controller that is installed after the hotfix is probably the safest to use.

Crystal Disk Info will not see the drive, but Crystal Disk Mark will benchmark it. If you install generic drivers Crystal Disk Info will recognize the drive, but in my case both performance and reliability were compromised and it was very difficult for Crystal Disk Mark to even benchmark it at all. I would stick with the Microsoft driver under Windows 7.

I did not clone the drive to test it as a boot drive nor did I install Windows 7 on it. I used it as an add-on storage device. If I try that, I will update this.

Regards,
John

FOLLOW-UP: I decided to try a disk clone of my SATA SSD to the NVMe to see if there would be any problems to report.
I own Aomei Backuuper Professional which works perfectly cloning HDD to HDD, SSD to SSD, HDD to SSD, or SSD to HDD.

It would not recognize the Sabrent drive despite both Windows 7 (with the MS driver) and my BIOS recognizing it.

So I downloaded my free upgrade to the latest version of Aomei and tried the following:
1. If you open Aomei Backupper in Windows 7 it sees the NVMe drive.
2. If you burn to disc or USB using Aomei, it asks you if you want to include a list of drivers which you can check or uncheck. I left them all checked including the Microsoft Standard NVM Controller driver.
Boot to disc. NVMe not seen
3. Tried burning an ISO image file and burning a disk with ImgBurn.
Drove still not seen booting into that disk.
4. Tried including just the MS driver only - same thing. No NVMe drive in the list.

Conclusion for Windows 7 users:
A. If you need any brand of NVMe for a scratch or working drive the Microsoft driver (available in the links in this thread) will allow Windows 7 to see the drive and perform pretty well in Crystal Disk Mark.
But Crystal Disk Info won't see it nor will the control panel from the drive manufacturer unless you use a Samsung NVMe because they are the only ones who make a Windows 7 driver for their NVMe line.
B. If you need to use the NVMe for a BOOT drive, buy a Samsung and use their W7 driver.

EDIT: See NewMaxx reply below.

 

[NewMaxx]

But Crystal Disk Info won't see it nor will the control panel from the drive manufacturer unless you use a Samsung NVMe because they are the only ones who make a Windows 7 driver for their NVMe line.

Intel has a Client NVMe driver that works for Windows 7. This covers any SMI-based drive as well (SM2263/XT, SM2262/EN, SM2260, etc). SMI's driver also works for Windows 7. Etc. It's true that Phison DOES NOT have such a driver, however (the Realtek/OFA driver doesn't work properly). Worth noting is that many features like HMB won't work on anything but Windows 10 regardless. I think the real takeaway is: don't use Windows 7 if you plan to work heavily with NVMe.

As for cloning/recognizing, bootable software - e.g. EaseUS - has a NVMe driver to see the drive and can utilize a UEFI environment. Any issues here would be up to the BIOS and board - Z97 for its part should work with an updated BIOS, with some exceptions. This is no different than RAID or anything else - it's best not to complicate it. However I don't work with NVMe on Windows 7 (I did on Windows 8/8.1 during development though) so by far and large I suggest people upgrade.

 

[craftech]

Intel has a Client NVMe driver that works for Windows 7. This covers any SMI-based drive as well (SM2263/XT, SM2262/EN, SM2260, etc). SMI's driver also works for Windows 7. Etc. It's true that Phison DOES NOT have such a driver, however (the Realtek/OFA driver doesn't work properly). Worth noting is that many features like HMB won't work on anything but Windows 10 regardless. I think the real takeaway is: don't use Windows 7 if you plan to work heavily with NVMe.

As for cloning/recognizing, bootable software - e.g. EaseUS - has a NVMe driver to see the drive and can utilize a UEFI environment. Any issues here would be up to the BIOS and board - Z97 for its part should work with an updated BIOS, with some exceptions. This is no different than RAID or anything else - it's best not to complicate it. However I don't work with NVMe on Windows 7 (I did on Windows 8/8.1 during development though) so by far and large I suggest people upgrade.

Good to know Intel has a driver.
As I explained in my first post, my Video Editing Software won't work in Windows 10 so for me I would have to buy a newer version of the software, build a new computer, install Windows 10, and not see a return on investment. My video editing business is not growing for me.
For others, Windows 10 is either free as an upgrade or dirt cheap so it makes sense for most.
I am up to the next to the last Gigabyte BIOS version which I read was the most reliable (F7). F8 doesn't have any features AFAIK that would help.

After watching endless videos from professional photographers and video editors testing NVMe drives they are not seeing a significant speed advantage using NVMe SSD drives over SATA SSDs in terms of rendering speed. They have tested with two NVMe SSDs and one of each. Little or no difference. Using an NVMe as a boot drive or a scratch drive didn't matter either. Apparently my little test (described earlier) using the NVMe as a scratch drive was an anomaly because I did see an increase in rendering time.

File transfer was another story. That was fast for them using an NVMe. But that isn't the main focus with video editing.

John

 

[NewMaxx]

Right, NVMe won't help with rendering speeds for the most part. It's more useful for editing - better latency when scrubbing, for example. Bandwidth is mostly the advantage for transferring files.

Some boards can use a native NVMe driver (in BIOS) which will go to the driver's OpROM. Mostly Samsung I believe. Otherwise, bootable software can work either in either legacy or UEFI (e.g. GRUB) but needs a NVMe driver to see the drive - however this is largely dependent on the chipset/BIOS since obviously it's not loading Windows 7, and in fact many UEFI are WIndows 10-based. So you should be able to get cloning/backup software to see the NVMe drive.

 

[craftech]

Right, NVMe won't help with rendering speeds for the most part. It's more useful for editing - better latency when scrubbing, for example. Bandwidth is mostly the advantage for transferring files.

Some boards can use a native NVMe driver (in BIOS) which will go to the driver's OpROM. Mostly Samsung I believe. Otherwise, bootable software can work either in either legacy or UEFI (e.g. GRUB) but needs a NVMe driver to see the drive - however this is largely dependent on the chipset/BIOS since obviously it's not loading Windows 7, and in fact many UEFI are WIndows 10-based. So you should be able to get cloning/backup software to see the NVMe drive.

Aomei Backupper Professional allows you to add any device drivers you like when you create bootable media from their program. I did that (adding the MS NVM storage controller driver) and when you boot from it it still doesn't see the NVMe despite what the BIOS sees. I also tried adding every driver in the list that comes up when you create the media. Same thing. Maybe it needs SMART info which the BIOS does not see. If you run Aomei Backupper Pro in Windows 7 it sees the drive, but you still cannot create a boot disk that sees it.

 

[NewMaxx]

My other approach to your problem would then be to virtualize Windows 7 to use your software, e.g. Hyper-V. Although perhaps that is a bridge too far. (that board does support IVT and VT-d)

 

[craftech]

Latest Update:
I downloaded and Force Installed the Samsung Windows 7 NVMe driver to see if it would work and it did.

Recommended AHCI/RAID and NVMe Drivers

Preliminary notes: Many AHCI and RAID users are unsure or don’t even know, which AHCI/RAID driver will give them the best results regarding stability and performance. They either don’t have the time or are not interested to do intensive tests comparing the different types and versions of the...

www.win-raid.com

>"pure" 64bit Samsung NVMe Driver v3.2.0.1910 WHQL for Win7 x64<

Device manager/Storage Controllers/Standard NVM Express Controller/Driver/Update Driver/Browse My Computer for driver software/Let me pick/Have Disk/find the inf for the Samsung, ignore the warnings, install.
Results:
Crystal Disk Info now sees the Sabrent NVMe. Crystal Disk Mark scores are faster than with the Micrsoft driver:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 6.0.2 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo WITH SAMSUNG DRIVER
Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 3128.994 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 2971.460 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 8) : 1308.648 MB/s [ 319494.1 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 8) : 1285.888 MB/s [ 313937.5 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 868.204 MB/s [ 211963.9 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 853.444 MB/s [ 208360.4 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 59.959 MB/s [ 14638.4 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 392.704 MB/s [ 95875.0 IOPS]

Test : 1024 MiB [V: 0.0% (0.1/953.7 GiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2020/01/28 9:38:01
OS : Windows 7 Professional SP1 [6.1 Build 7601] (x64)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ WITH MICROSOFT DRIVER
CrystalDiskMark 6.0.2 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 3125.618 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 2970.145 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 8) : 892.465 MB/s [ 217887.0 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 8) : 911.913 MB/s [ 222635.0 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 755.224 MB/s [ 184380.9 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 721.171 MB/s [ 176067.1 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 58.999 MB/s [ 14404.1 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 375.087 MB/s [ 91574.0 IOPS]

Test : 1024 MiB [V: 0.0% (0.1/953.7 GiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2020/01/25 15:05:26
OS : Windows 7 Professional SP1 [6.1 Build 7601] (x64

Haven't tried seeing if Aomei Backupper Boot disk sees it yet.

John

 

[NewMaxx]

Thanks for the update, this is helpful information. Glad it worked!

 

[sdifox]

Shouldn't you upgrade to win 10 anyway? Win7 has reached end of life.

 

[craftech]

Shouldn't you upgrade to win 10 anyway? Win7 has reached end of life.

I guess the problem with long threads is that the original thoughts get a little lost. I am a video editor. My particular 32-bit software will not run on Windows 10. To switch to Windows 10 would have been free for me actually, but it would have meant new video editing software and a new computer to run the new software as efficiently. I would not see an increase in business as a result either.
Under Windows 7 the software runs fine, but I have to run it as an administrator. Before that I was running it under Windows XP.

This combination of a fast SATA SSD and an NVMe scratch drive seems to be a big step up in speed for me. So under MY particular circumstances I am sticking with Windows 7 and I just paid for an extra year of security updates as well. I keep updating this thread in case someone else has similar circumstances. For most, switching to Windows 10 is probably the best option.
Thanks,
John

 

[VirtualLarry]

o under MY particular circumstances I am sticking with Windows 7 and I just paid for an extra year of security updates as well.

Is that a VL version of Windows 7, or a regular Retail/OEM copy? I thought that you have to be VLK/Enterprise to be allowed to pay for additional years of update service.

 

[sdifox]

I guess the problem with long threads is that the original thoughts get a little lost. I am a video editor. My particular 32-bit software will not run on Windows 10. To switch to Windows 10 would have been free for me actually, but it would have meant new video editing software and a new computer to run the new software as efficiently. I would not see an increase in business as a result either.
Under Windows 7 the software runs fine, but I have to run it as an administrator. Before that I was running it under Windows XP.

This combination of a fast SATA SSD and an NVMe scratch drive seems to be a big step up in speed for me. So under MY particular circumstances I am sticking with Windows 7 and I just paid for an extra year of security updates as well. I keep updating this thread in case someone else has similar circumstances. For most, switching to Windows 10 is probably the best option.
Thanks,
John

You are just delaying the inevitable.

 

[NewMaxx]

He could find a way to run it via hypervisor as well (as I said earlier - although since he's performance-oriented with that CPU, probably not a good solution) but if he got it working, I'm happy.

 

[craftech]

You are just delaying the inevitable.

I am 74. Which "inevitable" are you referring to?

 

[sdifox]

I am 74. Which "inevitable" are you referring to?

having to move to Windows 10. The other one is inevitable for all of us

 

[craftech]

Is that a VL version of Windows 7, or a regular Retail/OEM copy? I thought that you have to be VLK/Enterprise to be allowed to pay for additional years of update service.

Retail. If you need a link, PM me.
John