SM3.0 is a scam.

[hans030390]

Originally posted by: Pr0d1gy
Right, but Doom3 obviously runs much better on nVidia cards as do some other games...SM3.0 or not. And its good you mentioned that about Doom3, because it kind of points out what my original post meant without me having to spell it out for everyone. Alright guys, this is getting boring, so commence the fanboy beatdown for my blasphemy against your favorite GPU mfg. Cya.

You do know that Nvidia cards naturally run Opengl better than ATI cards do...you do know that Doom 3 is opengl. You do know that Nvidia paid the doom 3 devs to specifically program the game for nvidia cards. You do know that ATI does the same thing.

Enough said.

 

[Ackmed]

I dont think its a scam. But I also dont think its the "have to have" feature the PR dept played it up as. Not yet, and not with todays games. But thats my opinion.

It may benefit some people, and others it doesnt. Its as simple as that to me.

People mocking ATi card users saying that some games wont support PS2.0, dont have any proof. They also look selfish, as they would like for that to happen. It also effects NV users from a 2 year time period, who still have FX cards.

 

[speedstream5621]

Only the 7800 series can use any of the SM3.0 features...why? Because it is worthless on anything less.

Is that not a scam? I agree with the OP.

 

[IeraseU]

My opinion is that SM3.0 is going to become the standard in games, however by the time it becomes the standard, I believe the current SM3.0 cards will already be outdated.

I compare this in history to the 16bit vs 32bit color debate that went in the TNT2 vs Voodoo 3 days. The TNT2 had 32bit color, and it was a nice feature, except that the card was not fast enough to play the latest games with 32 bit color enabled. So in essence, it was a non issue, but there was a lot of debate about it at the time. However later cards, namely the Geforce series were indeed powerful enough to display 32bit color and now it's a standard for everycard.

One day SM3.0 will be the standard also, however by that time there will be far more powerful graphic cards out that will actually be able to do HDR and soft shadows without the 'massive' performance hit of current generation cards, and thusly those features will be viable in 'real world' terms.

 

[DRavisher]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I dont think its a scam. But I also dont think its the "have to have" feature the PR dept played it up as. Not yet, and not with todays games. But thats my opinion.

It may benefit some people, and others it doesnt. Its as simple as that to me.

People mocking ATi card users saying that some games wont support PS2.0, dont have any proof. They also look selfish, as they would like for that to happen. It also effects NV users from a 2 year time period, who still have FX cards.

I guess that is somewhat targeted at me (in this post at least). I'm not saying that SM2.0 will not be supported, but that the SM2.0 version that is only to be found in r400 may be dropped (this is the version that some say can compete with SM3.0). Developers will have to code for 1.1 (lots of older cards supports that), 2.0 (lots and lots of still decent cards from both nVidia and ATi support this), and of course SM3.0, since it allows for easy programming and is the future. Where does that leave ATi's 'special' 2.0 version (2.0b, is it?), or as I like to call it, SM2.0sooperdooperATI edition. I am simply guessing that developers may decide to invest their time elsewhere, since this probably wont create much of an uproar when ATi also has SM3.0... I am far from certain, but I think it is quite probable, or at least a blausible scenario. If that is the case, then those who still have their r400 cards will miss out on some eye candy that NV40/G70/R500 users will get. I would certainly take this in to account when purchasing a new card.

PS. This I don't really know much about it at all, but R400 may have some problems with HDR (the next big thing), at least I don't think FarCry supports HDR on ATi hardware yet...

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: IeraseU
My opinion is that SM3.0 is going to become the standard in games, however by the time it becomes the standard, I believe the current SM3.0 cards will already be outdated.

I compare this in history to the 16bit vs 32bit color debate that went in the TNT2 vs Voodoo 3 days. The TNT2 had 32bit color, and it was a nice feature, except that the card was not fast enough to play the latest games with 32 bit color enabled. So in essence, it was a non issue, but there was a lot of debate about it at the time. However later cards, namely the Geforce series were indeed powerful enough to display 32bit color and now it's a standard for everycard.

One day SM3.0 will be the standard also, however by that time there will be far more powerful graphic cards out that will actually be able to do HDR and soft shadows without the 'massive' performance hit of current generation cards, and thusly those features will be viable in 'real world' terms.

^ I agree, and have said the same before.

edit, someone posted before I did. Quoted part is who I was talking about.

 

[Munky]

SM3 is not a scam, and it will be used more and more in future games, but what is a scam in Nvidia trying to convince people that the gf6 series will actually be able to run future games with sm3 eye candy, and that such a feature is reason enough to chose a gf6 card over a x850 card. We have already seen that sm3 does not turn a weaker 6600gt into a x800-crushing monster , and we have also seen instances where a x800xt with sm2 is still faster than a 6800gt with sm3 running the same effects.

Sm3 will be needed in the gf7/r520 cards, but it's use in the gf6 series is limited at best.

 

[DRavisher]

Originally posted by: munky
SM3 is not a scam, and it will be used more and more in future games, but what is a scam in Nvidia trying to convince people that the gf6 series will actually be able to run future games with sm3 eye candy, and that such a feature is reason enough to chose a gf6 card over a x850 card. We have already seen that sm3 does not turn a weaker 6600gt into a x800-crushing monster , and we have also seen instances where a x800xt with sm2 is still faster than a 6800gt with sm3 running the same effects.

Sm3 will be needed in the gf7/r520 cards, but it's use in the gf6 series is limited at best.

Unless my 1337 h4xx0r predictions kick in, in which case having SM3.0 will be a blessing, since R400 will be stuck with inferior SM2.0 vanilla.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Rent

Originally posted by: Creig
Pr0d1gy - Stop, just stop. We get enough flamewars around here already, thank you very much.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Amen to that!

 

[Busithoth]

Originally posted by: hans030390
You do know that Nvidia cards naturally run Opengl better than ATI cards do...you do know that Doom 3 is opengl. You do know that Nvidia paid the doom 3 devs to specifically program the game for nvidia cards. You do know that ATI does the same thing.
Enough said.

I'd just like to add that I'm not a fan of this practice.
Obviously, the developers test both families of cards, but optimization skewed to/from one side is autophagous, IMO.

 

[ddogg]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: Rent

Originally posted by: Creig
Pr0d1gy - Stop, just stop. We get enough flamewars around here already, thank you very much.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Amen to that!

:beer: amazing post to start a flamewar! :thumbsup:

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: munky
Sm3 will be needed in the gf7/r520 cards, but it's use in the gf6 series is limited at best.

I don't know Munky. My son's 6800GT SLI rig is a pretty formidable SM3 GF6 setup. There are no games out it can't run very, very well. Second only to 7800GTX SLI, and sometimes 7800GTX.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Pr0d1gy

Originally posted by: apoppin
you are ati fanboy. clearly

your next card will have SM3.0

:roll:

Right, because I don't subscribe to your obviously flawed logic I am a fanboy for ATi? Of course my next card will have SM3.0, but do we really need it? Are SM2.0 games really deficient in the shadows department? Do I really care if there are perfect shadows in a game? I mean I don't care for dark games, I want to actually see what I am shooting instead of shooting shadows inside a 100% dark room a la Doom 3.

well, i don't subscribe to your trolling flamebait . .. .

You keep asking over-and-over "do we really need it?"

Yes we do. MS, ATI, nVidia and all the big players certainly think so. So do game programmers.

you are the minority . . . a very tiny and shrinking minority. Please educate yourself.

Yes, SM 2.0 games are really deficient compares to the efficiency of SM 3.0. Try doing a little research before you spout off more nonsense.

Originally posted by: Rollo
The point is that SM3 is the natural evolution of the industry, and nVidia/OEMs should be rewarded for accelerating the advance.

QFT [in part . . . nice post]

 

[Keysplayr]

Can we get a simple vote?

Agree with the OP = Yay
Disagree with the OP = Nay

Appreciated.

Oh yeah; Nay

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Rollo
The point is that SM3 is the natural evolution of the industry, and nVidia/OEMs should be rewarded for accelerating the advance.

QFT [in part . . . nice post]

Thanks!

(and I vote "Nay" in Keys vote)

 

[Gamingphreek]

Nay. Prodigy has no idea what he is talking about.

How can you say that a feature is a scam simply because not that many games support it yet? Over-hyped... yeah but certainly far from a scam. The PVP was much more a scam than this ever was... and im sure that was a completely unintentional mistake on Nvidia's part.

-Kevin

 

[DRavisher]

Nay. BTW. What does QFT mean? And theres another abbreviation i've been wondering about: LOMAO, LOAM, LOMA, LOAM or something like that. I know what ROLF and LOL mean, but not those two. This tread is strange enough for me to go off topic, isn't it?

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: DRavisher
Nay. BTW. What does QFT mean? And theres another abbreviation i've been wondering about: LOMAO, LOAM, LOMA, LOAM or something like that. I know what ROLF and LOL mean, but not those two. This tread is strange enough for me to go off topic, isn't it?

Quoted For Truth

 

[xtknight]

Nay

 

[Chocolate Pi]

Any one else find it funny that the OP declared everyone who was against him nVidia fanboys, and then thanks Rollo for "agreeing" with him? Nothing against Rollo, who is one of the best posters here IMO, but I just thought it really proved that the OP had backwards logic.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: DRavisher

Originally posted by: munky
SM3 is not a scam, and it will be used more and more in future games, but what is a scam in Nvidia trying to convince people that the gf6 series will actually be able to run future games with sm3 eye candy, and that such a feature is reason enough to chose a gf6 card over a x850 card. We have already seen that sm3 does not turn a weaker 6600gt into a x800-crushing monster , and we have also seen instances where a x800xt with sm2 is still faster than a 6800gt with sm3 running the same effects.

Sm3 will be needed in the gf7/r520 cards, but it's use in the gf6 series is limited at best.

Unless my 1337 h4xx0r predictions kick in, in which case having SM3.0 will be a blessing, since R400 will be stuck with inferior SM2.0 vanilla.

Yeah? We'll see, because it doesnt look like a blessing in current games, much less so in future, more demanding games. I wish somebody would run benches on the FEAR demo, we'll see if it turns out to be a blessing in that case.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: munky
Sm3 will be needed in the gf7/r520 cards, but it's use in the gf6 series is limited at best.

I don't know Munky. My son's 6800GT SLI rig is a pretty formidable SM3 GF6 setup. There are no games out it can't run very, very well. Second only to 7800GTX SLI, and sometimes 7800GTX.

Tell that to the people running a single 6800gt.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Chocolate Pi
Any one else find it funny that the OP declared everyone who was against him nVidia fanboys, and then thanks Rollo for "agreeing" with him? Nothing against Rollo, who is one of the best posters here IMO, but I just thought it really proved that the OP had backwards logic.

Thanks for the compliment and laugh! :beer:

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: munky
Sm3 will be needed in the gf7/r520 cards, but it's use in the gf6 series is limited at best.

I don't know Munky. My son's 6800GT SLI rig is a pretty formidable SM3 GF6 setup. There are no games out it can't run very, very well. Second only to 7800GTX SLI, and sometimes 7800GTX.

Tell that to the people running a single 6800gt.

Munky, I think you're confusing "SM3" with some of the features commonly associated with the nV40 chipset.

AFAIK, these days SM3 is mainly used for enhancing performance via geometry instancing.

I believe the only image quality enhancing SM3 feature is Displacement Mapping, and I don't think any games use it yet?

When I say the 6800GT SLI is a "formidable SM3 setup" I mean it's a graphics solution that offers outstanding performance on todays handful of SM3 games, as well as the potential to run upcoming SM3 games well.

 

[Hacp]

I agree with Ackmed and IeraseU. The reason the OP suggested that SM 3 was a "scam" was because some people say its a MUST HAVE feature. Well it isn't a must have feature. Sure its nice but not having it isn't devastating to this generation of games. This is one of the big reasons people suggest the 6800GT over the x800XL even though they perform similarly, Cause the 6800GT has SM 3.0... Well, by the time most of the next generation games come out, the people with teh 6800GTs will have to turn off AA and AF, just like the 9800PRO crowd, so the extra performance gain won't mean much because even with the performance gain of SM3, it will be hard to run AA and AF... Don't let SM 3.0 decide your next graphics cards like Nvidia wants, let benchmarks and performance decide what card you will buy.