Discussion So... are we just going to pretend that oral arguments in Moore v Harper aren't happening today?

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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,790
8,345
136
Yep - I think this is true of every democracy though. Things in the US are getting pretty bad with how the Constitution is being twisted though.

It still blows my mind that this year SCOTUS ruled a regulation invalid despite the fact that they did not dispute it was authorized by a duly passed statute that they considered constitutional. Their only reasoning was that because the regulation was big Congress needed to pass a new law saying they really meant it this time. There's obviously no basis in any law or the Constitution for this, SCOTUS just made it up.

This is the real problem - people have decided winning is more important than the system. Once they've decided that we get to a dangerous place.

EPA and major questions ... up there with Citizens United as the worst decisions ever.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,673
6,194
126
Every system of democratic governance relies on the good faith of all parties involved - if you don't have that then the writing is on the wall. I think this is shown in recent years where Republicans no longer entirely act in good faith when it comes to elections and it's getting worse. For that reason I think you're right that a written constitution is not particularly important.

Does this then raise the question or imply that if things are getting worse in the present then in the past they were better and something must be causing that erosion of faith to be happening? If so, should not whatever that cause may be, it needs to be the focus of attention of any wishing to reverse that trend?

Also, if what you say is true, it strikes me as having to be a rather unique point of view. I do hear a lot of complaining or bemoaning about the loss of faith in government but not so much on why or how to fix it. I also don’t hear a loud and clear message that this loss of faith is central or key to our survival as a nation which I assume you mean by the writing on the wall.

My interest in this you may guess is psychological. I found this conversation you were having with pmv and the input of others to be very interesting, maybe even probingly deep, not a run of the mill everyday sort of conversation.

It brought to mind thoughts of the kinds of conversations that must have taken place between people at our founding and those typical of today.
 

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,650
3,200
136
The whole thing is a bad joke. Basically NC is arguing their state supreme court has no standing when its their state Constitution that creates the state legislature, giving it it's power in the first place. The SC is who interprets their Constitution.
It is a bad joke, that at least 4 supreme court justices thought had sufficient merit to be accepted for formal arguments, rather than thrown out with laughter.

So we have fully confirmed 4 supreme court justices are idiots, insane, or purely political partisan hacks (or some combination thereof)
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,301
10,800
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I realize that here just (like everywhere else lol) the bad news tends to get nearly all the play BUT from what I've been reading this case is very likely to get shot down by SCOTUS.

Does this mean I suddenly have confidence in this court? Heck freaking no. (P&N certified "swearing" FTW?)
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,673
6,194
126
Aside from the problem of lack of faith in government there is a related problem, I think. It's that without faith there is also a feeling of hopelessness that leads to indifference in everything politic. People can live quite successfully in their individual lives thanks to our liberal culture. People therefore do not have a sense they have any skin in the game. Perhaps when their local power station gets blown up and their cell service goes down they may begin to have some interest in pushing back politically against the right. I think that reaction as a movement is already picking up steam.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,264
8,192
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,683
49,274
136
So how is this going?

This account seems to suggest it's not looking great for the ISL proponents.


Certainly


Doesn't sound promising for the Republican cause...
It looks like the ISL people will lose, but not by a lot. It should be 9-0, but it will probably be 5-4 or at best 6-3.

You might be asking why the US Supreme Court thinks that state legislatures who are free to essentially end democracy for their own elections should be able to end federal democracy but that’s basically because SCOTUS thinks in those cases their policy preferences would be enacted.

Basically you should view SCOTUS as a partisan legislature that can’t get voted out.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
Doesn't sound promising for the Republican cause...
That all depends on if you think the oral arguments matter. I don't believe this court even cares about oral arguments anymore. How they are going to vote is decided by the time they have decided to accept the case since more than half of them vote based on party politics instead of constitutional law.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,053
7,474
136
That all depends on if you think the oral arguments matter. I don't believe this court even cares about oral arguments anymore. How they are going to vote is decided by the time they have decided to accept the case since more than half of them vote based on party politics instead of constitutional law.

- Yup. The fact that the SC decided to even hear this case rather than let the lower court ruling stand is a bit concerning. Why even waste time on this garbage unless you planned to tweak/upend the law?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,264
8,192
136
That all depends on if you think the oral arguments matter. I don't believe this court even cares about oral arguments anymore. How they are going to vote is decided by the time they have decided to accept the case since more than half of them vote based on party politics instead of constitutional law.

Yeah, I suppose so. I gather it's all down to the two right-wing nuts who might not be quite the right flavour of right-wing nut for this particular case? Beer Boy and the Hand Maiden, who were chosen for their abortion stances, not anything else.

I can't see that a sane system would have let this case get to this point though.

Also it just makes me wonder what other weird potential implications are lurking in the Constitution, waiting sufficiently creative interpretation efforts.

For one thing, if the reference to 'legislatures' with regard to the states is to be taken as excluding any state constitutional constraint or any role for State Supreme Courts, surely the same could be applied at the national level? Meaning the national legislature could surely do whatever it wanted, unconstrained by the national Constitution or the Supreme Court itself?

Why does the same logic not apply at that level?
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,683
49,274
136
Yeah, I suppose so. I gather it's all down to the two right-wing nuts who might not be quite the right flavour of right-wing nut for this particular case? Beer Boy and the Hand Maiden, who were chosen for their abortion stances, not anything else.

I can't see that a sane system would have let this case get to this point though.

Also it just makes me wonder what other weird potential implications are lurking in the Constitution, waiting sufficiently creative interpretation efforts.

For one thing, if the reference to 'legislatures' with regard to the states is to be taken as excluding any state constitutional constraint or any role for State Supreme Courts, surely the same could be applied at the national level? Meaning the national legislature could surely do whatever it wanted, unconstrained by the national Constitution or the Supreme Court itself?

Why does the same logic not apply at that level?
Basically the reasoning is that state legislatures have this power explicitly enumerated in the constitution, which would not be true more generally.

That being said as evidenced by the major questions doctrine what the constitution says doesn’t really matter. After all there’s no part of the constitution that says courts can invalidate laws because they think Congress didn’t really mean it hard enough when they passed it and yet here we are.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,465
27,737
136
Yeah, I suppose so. I gather it's all down to the two right-wing nuts who might not be quite the right flavour of right-wing nut for this particular case? Beer Boy and the Hand Maiden, who were chosen for their abortion stances, not anything else.
Boof Boy was selected for so much more than abortion. He is a staunch proponent of corporate rights and presidential power, when the correct party holds the office, of course. He's adamantly opposed to civil rights. He's in Alito's league as a party hack. Kavanaugh is probably the most dangerous person to ever be confirmed for the court.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo and pmv

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,683
49,274
136

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,053
7,474
136
Yeah, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth here and its great that 6 of the 9 justices didn't have their heads firmly in their asses but I've never wanted to read a dissenting justices arguments quite like I want to in this case.

Dodged a bullet here folks, I dare hope that even if this court cannot respect established prior precedent, it can respect its own so other cases of this nature that come to the court meet similar fates.
 

gothuevos

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2010
2,017
1,726
136
Yeah, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth here and its great that 6 of the 9 justices didn't have their heads firmly in their asses but I've never wanted to read a dissenting justices arguments quite like I want to in this case.

Dodged a bullet here folks, I dare hope that even if this court cannot respect established prior precedent, it can respect its own so other cases of this nature that come to the court meet similar fates.
Agreed.

We dodged a huge one. Again.

Will our luck run out at some point?
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,833
2,092
136
Kind of amazing that three justices thought that for the entirety of US history the states could have stolen any federal elections they wanted to, they just chose not to.

Although considering the three dissents, not so amazing I guess.

It blows my mind that 3 supreme court justices thought it's ok to disenfranchise millions of voters.

They really are trying to turn this into a country run by fascist.
 
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