So can we agree that this sums everything up?

[Atreus21]

Do men benefit from having healthy offspring ?

Do men benefit if their Mom, sister, girlfriend, doesn't die from cancer ?

Does society benefit from people having kids when they want to and can take care of them ?

I dearly hope the Republicans try to remove these benefits from the ACA. Please, please, please try to do so.

Does society benefit when experts in Washington dictate to people who freely choose and purchase freely offered products that they don't know what's best for themselves? To say nothing of enforcing their prescription?

In what sense is it moral to force people to lose coverage they want because it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard set by disinterested 3rd parties?

 

[Tom]

Both parties are terrible. That sums it up.

I still don't understand why the website was so expensive and doesn't work correctly. Who did they hire?

It's not the "website" per se that's the problem.

It's the complexity of the law that requires accessing a great number of disparate databases for verification and registration purposes.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Repeal is inevitable.

 

[nehalem256]

Do men benefit from having healthy offspring ?

Do men benefit if their Mom, sister, girlfriend, doesn't die from cancer ?

Do men not get cancer?

EDIT: And you don't see a difference in buying insurance to cover your wife's pregnancy vs being forced to cover the health care costs of strangers?

Does society benefit from people having kids when they want to and can take care of them ?

Because if there is one thing the Democratic Party stands for it is people only have kids when they can take care of them ^_^

Also, one could make the same argument for car insurance.

Doesn't mean people who don't own cars should be forced to buy car insurance.

 

[Tom]

Does society benefit when experts in Washington dictate to people who freely choose and purchase freely offered products that they don't know what's best for themselves? To say nothing of enforcing their prescription?

In what sense is it moral to force people to lose coverage they want because it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard set by disinterested 3rd parties?

Yes it does benefit greatly.

You might not be an "expert" at human evolution so let me explain it to you. The reason why human's live in groups are that people with different "expertise" fulfill different roles in the group.

Human beings would be extinct if the myth of the individualist was actually true.

 

[Tom]

Do men not get cancer?

EDIT: And you don't see a difference in buying insurance to cover your wife's pregnancy vs being forced to cover the health care costs of strangers?



Because if there is one thing the Democratic Party stands for it is people only have kids when they can take care of them ^_^

Also, one could make the same argument for car insurance.

Doesn't mean people who don't own cars should be forced to buy car insurance.

There's really no reason to discuss the role of women and men with you.

You believe women are chattle. There are entire regions of the world that agrees with you.

I'm proud to live in a country that isn't like that.

 

[nehalem256]

There's really no reason to discuss the role of women and men with you.

You believe women are chattle. There are entire regions of the world that agrees with you.

I'm proud to live in a country that isn't like that.

Never said that or anything like that.

In fact what I am saying is that women are capable of taking care of themselves and don't need a man to take care of them.

You appear to be arguing the opposite. You think women are incapable of taking care of themselves and being responsible for their own choices.

So which of us really has a lower opinion of women?

EDIT: And you are pretty much straight up saying men should be forced to pay for women... sounds an awfully lot like slavery to me. So who believes who is chattel now?

 

[Atreus21]

Yes it does benefit greatly.

You might not be an "expert" at human evolution so let me explain it to you. The reason why human's live in groups are that people with different "expertise" fulfill different roles in the group.

Human beings would be extinct if the myth of the individualist was actually true.

Yeah. Personal liberty? Just a myth. People should be told what to do by their betters. And if they don't like it they will be forced.

Strange that this is such a novel concept. How did we avoid such a great system? What fools we must be.

 

[nehalem256]

Yeah. Personal liberty? Just a myth. People should be told what to do by their betters.

Strange that this is such a novel concept. You'd think this would've been discovered and maintained thousands of years ago since it works so well.

Unless we are talking about abortion of course. Then liberals will fall on themselves to worship the choices of pregnant teenagers

 

[Moonbeam]

Bwahahaha, you keep on dreaming you big dreamer. How much of California votes demcorat? Please do tell. Oh right - the unsuccessful parts of California that have it in a debt crisis (A'la Los Angeles, etc.)

Much like Chicago, they are going to play this fun game where they think they can keep taking - the companies are slowly departing to the conservative parts while the liberals sit in the dog turd like the Scarecrow saying "If I only had a braaaaaaaaaaain!". Give Detroit a call. Tell them we said Hi!

It's sad to see an individual who has eaten so much conservative horse shit that he's actually come to believe it but a simple little thing like an internet search will tell you that contrary to your imbecilic delusion, LA county is the 15largest economy in the world, third as a city behind Tokyo and New York. It is ranked as an Alpha city as is San Francisco.

 

[Tom]

Yeah. Personal liberty? Just a myth. People should be told what to do by their betters. And if they don't like it they will be forced.

Strange that this is such a novel concept. How did we avoid such a great system? What fools we must be.

I'm sorry you don't understand the society you live in but I'm not interested in explaining it to you.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes it does benefit greatly.

You might not be an "expert" at human evolution so let me explain it to you. The reason why human's live in groups are that people with different "expertise" fulfill different roles in the group.

Human beings would be extinct if the myth of the individualist was actually true.

Would you explain how Obama is more expert in my field than I am?

 

[glenn1]

Here is reality. The Republicans are not going to have veto proof majorities in the House and Senate after the 2014 election. President Obama will still be President.

So ACA isn't going away. What will happen are fixes to make it better. Congress people from both parties can run on that.

What "fixes" do you think are going to stabilize Obamacare? In many ways, the main premises of Obamacare are what is driving some of its key failures. Combine faulty premises with a huge assortment of kludgy workarounds, exemptions, and delays, and it's entirely likely that Obamacare will never be able to work as a coherent whole.

 

[Tom]

Never said that or anything like that.

In fact what I am saying is that women are capable of taking care of themselves and don't need a man to take care of them.

You appear to be arguing the opposite. You think women are incapable of taking care of themselves and being responsible for their own choices.

So which of us really has a lower opinion of women?

EDIT: And you are pretty much straight up saying men should be forced to pay for women... sounds an awfully lot like slavery to me. So who believes who is chattel now?

"men forced to pay for women"

Like I said, that's how you see the world.

I said nothing remotely like that but you're so invested that its a man versus woman world that you can't understand anything but that.

Take birth control pills. You think they're for women. Guess what ? A woman doesn't need birth control pills to not get pregnant UNLESS there's a man. And he gets the same benefit of having sex without making a baby as the woman.

So they aren't for women. They're for people.

That's how I see the world. People. Not man vs woman.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

It's sad to see an individual who has eaten so much conservative horse shit that he's actually come to believe it but a simple little thing like an internet search will tell you that contrary to your imbecilic delusion, LA county is the 15largest economy in the world, third as a city behind Tokyo and New York. It is ranked as an Alpha city as is San Francisco.

Businesses are moving out of California...however, it will probably take a while to be noticeable within such a large economy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/01/16/fleeing-california-taxes-get-in-line/

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/moved-342887-companies-texas.html

 

[Moonbeam]

Yeah. Personal liberty? Just a myth. People should be told what to do by their betters. And if they don't like it they will be forced.

Strange that this is such a novel concept. How did we avoid such a great system? What fools we must be.

What you can't get straight is the difference between individualism and egotism. Freedom consists of two things, rights and responsibilities. All you want to look at is your rights. You freedoms are embedded in a matrix created by other people and to whom you owe a debt. No freedom comes without demands. The only person who is free is he who meets those demands voluntarily.

 

[Moonbeam]

Businesses are moving out of California...however, it will probably take a while to be noticeable within such a large economy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmu...an-is-a-model-for-the-world-but-will-it-work/

 

[Tom]

What "fixes" do you think are going to stabilize Obamacare? In many ways, the main premises of Obamacare are what is driving some of its key failures. Combine faulty premises with a huge assortment of kludgy workarounds, exemptions, and delays, and it's entirely likely that Obamacare will never be able to work as a coherent whole.

You haven't described a single tangible thing that's wrong for me to respond to.

The biggest thing that's wrong with the ACA are the Republican run states that are trying to sabotage it.

I would say the next biggest thing is uneven competition depending on location.

Both of those things can be fixed rather easily if the goal is fixing, not destroying.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Whatever happened to the notion of "pay for what you need"?

I don't need any of the women's health stuff since I am single. Obviously if I wasn't single WE would then get the appropriate coverage for both of us, but since I'm not, why should I pay for something I'm not going to be using? Especially, why should I be forced to pay for something that I consider morally abhorrent? :thumbsdown:

 

[nehalem256]

"men forced to pay for women"

Like I said, that's how you see the world.

I said nothing remotely like that but you're so invested that its a man versus woman world that you can't understand anything but that.

Actually that would be the world liberals created. Where they are always judging where women are >= men at everything.

Do women pay more for health insurance. OMG crisis. Ignoring the fact that this is because women use more health care.

Do men make more money than women. OMG crisis. Ignoring basic facts like men work more hours.

Liberals created a man vs women world not me.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmu...an-is-a-model-for-the-world-but-will-it-work/

Agree...Detroit responded poorly to changing realities.

 

[Tom]

Businesses are moving out of California...however, it will probably take a while to be noticeable within such a large economy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/01/16/fleeing-california-taxes-get-in-line/

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/moved-342887-companies-texas.html

A business can't move out of a place where it isn't.

Why are all these businesses in California to start with ? Because the taxes were low ? LOL, they're there because of the economy of California which is there because of the location, climate, society, colleges.

Brown has done a great job getting CA to a place it needs to be. So some businesses that don't need the cream of the crop employees can move away, that's just the way it is.

 

[Atreus21]

What you can't get straight is the difference between individualism and egotism. Freedom consists of two things, rights and responsibilities.
All you want to look at is your rights.

You freedoms are embedded in a matrix created by other people and to whom you owe a debt.

No freedom comes without demands. The only person who is free is he who meets those demands voluntarily.

Remarkable. Into how many clever contortions will liberals in this thread engage to apply lipstick to what is obviously a pig?

There is a simple word for what you're espousing: authoritarianism. We, not you, will decide what health insurance you may purchase, even if you think you like it. Trust us, not your lying eyes.

Only the left could dress that, or even attempt to dress that, in the language of freedom.

 

[Tom]

Would you explain how Obama is more expert in my field than I am?

I didn't say he was. The ACA wasn't written and isn't being administered by one person.

If your field is healthcare, or insurance, or something else, I'm sure you'd admit that even if you think they have it wrong, there are experts in the field that are deeply involved in the law and it's implementation.

And the point I was arguing about was the wisdom of relying on experts for some things versus everyone doing everything on their own.

Not the expertise of President Obama.

 

[rudeguy]

Agree...Detroit responded poorly to changing realities.

No. Detroit was lied to and strung on by our previous governor. She was under Obama's spell and honestly believed that he would save the city. In one "State of the State" address, she actually said that Michigan would be saved by the stimulus. And by Michigan, she meant Detroit. She never cared about any other part of the state. So Detroit waited and waited and died and died.

Meanwhile Grand Rapids got going on their own. We realized that the auto industry was done for, as well as the furniture industry that we relied on and that we needed to change. We redid downtown completely and changed it from a shit hole to a booming community. We enticed (and sometimes paid) medical facilities to relocate to downtown. What used to be the worst corner (Division and Wealthy) is now a beautiful building and park. There are massive medical research and treatment facilities up and more going up.

Abandoned houses were dealt with. They were torn down and properties sold but first the property was offered to neighboring owners for something like $100 and a promise to keep the property up.

There are free buses that run downtown at basically all hours. No need to worry about transportation if you live or work downtown. They also built up Art Prize from a local kind of cool thing to a major event that brings in people from all over the world.

There are many college campuses and university campuses downtown now where as before it was basically just the community college. Combined with the new medical research facilities, we have students from all over the world coming to the city now.

Guess how much debt we racked up doing all of this? Guess how much taxes were raised? Guess how many bailouts we had to ask for?

Detroit failed because of the liberal morons who ran it and the liberal morons in DC who promised they would save the city.