So.... good shoot?

[balloonshark]

I don't think he was trying to be a cop, he was just miffed that she parked in a handicap spot. You don't get mad when you see that or people taking 2 spaces or parking up against your door?

It's impossible to say from the video, but it doesn't look like it was a heated argument between the lady and the shooter. It got out of hand when the husband pushed the shooter so hard he fell to the ground.

Sure I get mad but I'm not going to kill anyone over it or put myself in a situation where I might kill. It's also not my job to penalize these people. We pay taxes for other people to enforce the law. People who carry deadly weapons should be held to a higher standard just like those trained to kill. In other words don't go putting yourself in a situation where you might have to use your weapon/s or skills. Avoid conflict at all cost if you have a weapon. If the trouble comes to you then that may be a different story but killing should always be your last option.

 

[umbrella39]

As soon as he saw him go for his weapon he should have ended him. What duty does he have to retreat when he clearly had stood back and posed no threat. Now he is the one fearing for his life...

Can he not defend his own life at that point?

Serious question as in Michigan the guy on the ground would likely be charged.

 

[whm1974]

As soon as he saw him go for his weapon he should have ended him. What duty does he have to retreat when he clearly had stood back and posed no threat. Now he is the one fearing for his life...

Can he not defend his own life at that point?

If the attacker continued attacking the man, then we would here saying the man was justified in shooting.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

This video has the sheriff commenting on it and explains how the stand your ground law applies to it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/vide...ccc2c0cabcf_video.html?utm_term=.30920d70bd8b

Thats also a much longer video showing the shooter stopping. Going back to the car and whatever is going on is enough that everyone else going in and out is looking at it. Stopping etc...

Again. Start an argument and get someone to shove you and you’re golden.

The point Jaskalas is making is the most salient I think. If he draws his gun but doesn’t shoot it’s brandishing. He pulls the trigger it’s self defence (possibly).

The way the law is now in Florida and elsewhere you are better off killing someone than just having them back off and not pulling the trigger.

 

[umbrella39]

If the attacker continued attacking the man, then we would here saying the man was justified in shooting.

However the standing man should be able to defend himself from a clear threat to end his life.

As soon as I see someone reaching I'm getting mine off first and will nutralize the threat. If i fear for my life i can defend with deadly force.

Why does the guy holding a gun get to be the only one who can fear for their life and not retreat in this scenario...

Being pushed to the ground by someone who isn't engaging any further shouldn't afford you carte blanche nor should being unarmed and having someone brandish mean you can't defend your life, too.

 

[whm1974]

However the standing man should be able to defend himself from a clear threat to end his life.

As soon as I see someone reaching I'm getting mine off first and will nutralize the threat. If i fear for my life i can defend with deadly force.

Why does the guy holding a gun get to be the only one who can fear for their life and not retreat in this scenario...

Being pushed to the ground by someone who isn't engaging any further shouldn't afford you carte blanche nor should being unarmed and having someone brandish mean you can't defend your life, too.

Because the attacker attacked first and continued to attack until the man on the ground displayed the weapon. Yes I agree that man should hold his fire since the attacker backed off(Florida laws aside). However if the attacker didn't stop, then it would be justified to shoot.

 

[cfenton]

Once you choose to assault another person, all bets are off in terms of their response

That's only true because of the very unusual Stand Your Ground law in Florida. In almost any other place on earth self-defense has to be a reasonable response to the aggression. If you punch me in the arm, I can't shoot you and claim it was self-defense. Or, as is relevant in this case, if you push me to the ground, I can't shoot you and claim it was self-defense (unless, maybe, you continued to attack me on the ground and were physically much larger than me). If you point a gun at me, then I can shoot you, though I still have an obligation to avoid killing you if I can.

Also, what gives him the right to enforce the law? That's not his job and because he took it upon himself someone is now dead and a family now has no father or husband. If he had made a phone call this would have never happened. This is his fault for taking the law into his own hands.

I was thinking this as well, so I looked it up. Apparently the US Supreme Court has given extremely wide latitude for citizen's arrest. In many other countries citizens only have the right to arrest others for felonies (or the local equivalent). In the US, citizens can arrest others for just about any violation of the law, even stuff that would only get you a fine.

 

[whm1974]

I was thinking this as well, so I looked it up. Apparently the US Supreme Court has given extremely wide latitude for citizen's arrest. In many other countries citizens only have the right to arrest others for felonies (or the local equivalent). In the US, citizens can arrest others for just about any violation of the law, even stuff that would only get you a fine.

That is really stupid. However couldn't the "arrestie" sue the other person for false arrest if it turns out at he wasn't in fact breaking any laws?

 

[paperfist]

The way the murderer was jutting his neck forward to emphasize his words he wasn't talking gently enough for it to be mistaken for a conversation about adorable puppies.

Can't say for sure, his body language doesn't look that excited but who knows maybe he's 85.

Sure I get mad but I'm not going to kill anyone over it or put myself in a situation where I might kill. It's also not my job to penalize these people. We pay taxes for other people to enforce the law. People who carry deadly weapons should be held to a higher standard just like those trained to kill. In other words don't go putting yourself in a situation where you might have to use your weapon/s or skills. Avoid conflict at all cost if you have a weapon. If the trouble comes to you then that may be a different story but killing should always be your last option.

I wouldn't either, but that's the thing with this scenario a 3rd person entered the picture and pushed the shooter to the ground. The shooter doesn't know who that 3rd person is.

Whether or not the shooter had a right to be arguing with the lady doesn't really matter. It's the husband that enters the fray that turns the shooter into a killer. If the shooter was that pissed off why didn't he shoot the lady next?

I don't know the time frame this all happened, but 4-5 other people noticed what was going on and it doesn't seem like they called the cops.

I agree with you on your last part. I'm not a fan of people carrying guns when others aren't. There's arguments against this though when someone carrying helps out some that is a victim in a crime they are witnessing.

Thats also a much longer video showing the shooter stopping. Going back to the car and whatever is going on is enough that everyone else going in and out is looking at it. Stopping etc...

Again. Start an argument and get someone to shove you and you’re golden.

The point Jaskalas is making is the most salient I think. If he draws his gun but doesn’t shoot it’s brandishing. He pulls the trigger it’s self defence (possibly).

The way the law is now in Florida and elsewhere you are better off killing someone than just having them back off and not pulling the trigger.

I get it, there's definitely a loop hole in that law and that's messed up. If you could get into his head and figure out that's what he was thinking when he shot then he's a murderer.

 

[NAC4EV]

All over a parking stall.
Shoot first ask questions after.



Americans are so messed up.
It's like a nightmare that you can't wake up from.
And many of you think this is normal.

 

[umbrella39]

So what I am hearing is at no point can the original aggressor despite retreating, fear for his own life and use his own deadly force himself in Florida.

Were he armed, too, could he have responded with lethal force in Florida?

If someone is arguing with my wife and is armed, gets pushed to the ground by me, and I have no intent or make any other advancement can I shoot them dead if they reach for their gun?

We are visiting Florida next year and want to know ground rules...

 

[NAC4EV]

We are visiting Florida next year and want to know ground rules...

I used to go there,,, NO MORE

 

[whm1974]

So what I am hearing is at no point can the original aggressor despite retreating, fear for his own life and use his own deadly force himself in Florida.

Were he armed, too, could he have responded with lethal force in Florida?

If someone is arguing with my wife and is armed, gets pushed to the ground by me, and I have no intent or make any other advancement can I shoot them dead if they reach for their gun?

We are visiting Florida next year and want to know ground rules...

To be clear, if you have to use deadly force, you use it to prevent the other person from killing or doing grave bodily harm. You don't use it with the intent to kill.

 

[paperfist]

So what I am hearing is at no point can the original aggressor despite retreating, fear for his own life and use his own deadly force himself in Florida.

Were he armed, too, could he have responded with lethal force in Florida?

If someone is arguing with my wife and is armed, gets pushed to the ground by me, and I have no intent or make any other advancement can I shoot them dead if they reach for their gun?

We are visiting Florida next year and want to know ground rules...

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html

 

[umbrella39]

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html

Thanks for the link. I've tried to make heads and tails of it before. Too broad imo...

 

[brycejones]

The problem here is too many fucking guns. Stupid shit can and will happen having armed parties makes it so much easier to escalate the situation.

 

[Starbuck1975]

That's only true because of the very unusual Stand Your Ground law in Florida. In almost any other place on earth self-defense has to be a reasonable response to the aggression. If you punch me in the arm, I can't shoot you and claim it was self-defense. Or, as is relevant in this case, if you push me to the ground, I can't shoot you and claim it was self-defense (unless, maybe, you continued to attack me on the ground and were physically much larger than me). If you point a gun at me, then I can shoot you, though I still have an obligation to avoid killing you if I can.

Yes, the response needs to be reasonable. Throwing someone to the ground because they’ve confronted you and your girlfriend for doing something inconsiderate is not a reasonable response.

I’ve noticed in general that people are increasingly escalating over the smallest provocations.

If lived in Florida, I would assume everyone is armed and think twice about unecessarily escalating a situation.

I don’t think shooting the attacker was the right response, but this story also does not surprise me.

 

[Younigue]

All over a parking stall.
Shoot first ask questions after.



Americans are so messed up.
It's like a nightmare that you can't wake up from.
And many of you think this is normal.

You nailed it.

 

[whm1974]

Yes, the response needs to be reasonable. Throwing someone to the ground because they’ve confronted you and your girlfriend for doing something inconsiderate is not a reasonable response.

I’ve noticed in general that people are increasingly escalating over the smallest provocations.

If lived in Florida, I would assume everyone is armed and think twice about unecessarily escalating a situation.

I don’t think shooting the attacker was the right response, but this story also does not surprise me.

I wouldn't want to be the guy that took another person's life no matter how justified it was. And I wouldn't know how to live myself if was over something really stupid.

 

[bigboxes]

I have a license to carry, but that doesn't mean you should act any differently than you would if you didn't have the firearm in the first place. You should avoid the confrontation. Not get "courage" because you are carrying a firearm. The deceased acted normally in coming to the aid of his wife. Big man with a gun.

 

[Younigue]

I wouldn't want to be the guy that took another person's life no matter how justified it was. And I wouldn't know how to live myself if was over something really stupid.

That's also why I detest drinking and driving. How does someone live with themselves if they take someones life for a stupid, fu*ked up reason? And this incident here was stupid. If the guy isn't going to be punished I hope with every fiber of my being he is tortured and haunted by it from his own mind every second of every day for the rest of his life.

 

[whm1974]

That's also why I detest drinking and driving. How does someone live with themselves if they take someones life for a stupid, fu*ked up reason? And this incident here was stupid. If the guy isn't going to be punished I hope with every fiber of my being he is tortured and haunted by it from his own mind every second of every day for the rest of his life.

What gets me is how can grown adults act so recklessly? I have always been inclined to think before acting.

 

[mindless1]

Same shit different day. Minor thing, escalates into argument, escalates into violence, ends badly.

I don't agree with FL's law being interpreted like that, but if you live there and know there is that law, hopefully this event will cause you to pause before attacking someone.

 

[Younigue]

What gets me is how can grown adults act so recklessly? I have always been inclined to think before acting.

Due to fear, insecurity, inferiority, cruelty, hate or just plain ole stupidity. And the majority of these fu*king good for nothing gun heads would rather achieve dominance over those feelings with a weapon rather than dealing with the stuff internally but at heart they're actually cowards. That's my opinion any way.

 

[whm1974]

Due to fear, insecurity, inferiority, cruelty, hate or just plain ole stupidity. And the majority of these fu*king good for nothing gun heads would rather achieve dominance over those feelings with a weapon rather than dealing with the stuff internally but at heart they're actually cowards. That's my opinion any way.

While I used to be a gun owner and kept a loaded revolver for home protection, I wouldn't just shoot somebody that walk in my house. I'll wait to see if he is an actually threat or have given me reasonable belief that he is.