So, I just saw a bunch of Nforce 500 boards...

[scrawnypaleguy]

I'm seeing a whole buch of PCIexpress x1 slots, but in some cases there's only ONE pci slot. As far as I've seen, there isn't ANYTHING that uses a x1 slot!!!! What are mobo manufacturers thinking???

 

[Peter]

They're thinking that consumers should educate themselves ... and they're moving from the 13 year old PCI slot to the modern standard.

There are PCIE TV cards, network cards, SATA controllers - and yes, they're PCIE 1x. More to come.

Your rant is very very similar to what we've heard when ISA slots were on their way out.

 

[n7]

I would like to see PCI abandoned too, but honestly Peter, there is extremely little to choose from for PCIe 1x devices right now.

It seems that mobo manufacturers are way ahead of peripherals right now

 

[oRdchaos]

I think there's actually something up with the current PCI E 1x slot implementation on motherboards.

I've been using a few SIIG PCIe 1x Firewire cards, and compatibility in motherboards has been pretty hit or miss.

On a K8n-SLI, with the PCIe firewire card in, the board would fail memtest unless the ram was at ridiculously relaxed timings in single channel mode. ( Would still crash under load in windows). Remove the card and everything was fine. Tried 2 different K8n's, 3 different firewire cards.

Most PCIe 1x cards have a bridge chip that converts the PCIe into standard PCI. I think motherboards then have to support some sort of negotiation with the device on the other side of the bridge as part of booting. This process seems a little flawed from my experience in current motherboards.

 

[slowpogo]

At the moment I'm using 4 of the 4 PCI slots on my Dimension 8200: one is for an Echo specialized pro audio card, one for an Audigy (for gaming use), one for a firewire adapter, and the last for a wireless LAN card.

I am building a new PC, which will have firewire support on the motherboard, but the other three cards will stay. I can't see this changing anytime in the future, so for example, I'm someone who needs 3 PCI slots. It would be possible to get a pro audio interface and/or wireless adapter that uses USB or firewire, but I have no reason to, provided my mobo has room for the cards.

So for me, PCI is far from dead, and won't be for the next 2-3 years...just an example.

 

[Peter]

PCIE-to-PCI bridging does not need special support in BIOS - it's intrinsic to how PCIE works.

Reverse bridging, which means you're presenting a PCIE device to a legacy PCI system, is a bit more difficult.

Either way, I've seen enough problems with non-graphics PCIE cards and slots, and they've all been sloppy BIOS coding. For example, the aforementioned PCIE-to-PCI bridges have their own resource needs, which many BIOSes fail to assign. Windows XP can't do that either, and you'll either get a yellow bang on the bridge device, or strange behavior (like interrupt flooding).

 

[atom]

The lack of 2 PATA ports on a lot of upcoming MB's irks me more than the PCI slots. I have 2 perfectly functioning 300 gig HD's and 2 perfectly functioning optical drives and apparently they are obsolete even though SATA equivalents hardly provide any benefit. At least if i get a SATA/IDE controller I have something to put in those PCIE slots that would have undoubtedly sat vacant otherwise. :thumbsdown:

 

[Peter]

There aren't any PCIE IDE controller chips, and probably there won't ever be any. SATA-to-IDE converter boards do exist however.

Remember that 99.99 percent of the total PC market do not move old components into new machines, ever. The few DIY users are expected to help themselves.

Specifically, new PCs are supposed to be built with SATA harddisks, but will keep IDE opticals for a while.

Even more specifically, when buying those two 300 gig drives, you did have the choice of buying SATA models but didn't - and now that backwards oriented decision backfires on you.

 

[atom]

There aren't any PCIE IDE controller chips, and probably there won't ever be any. SATA-to-IDE converter boards do exist however.

Check again.

Remember that 99.99 percent of the total PC market do not move old components into new machines, ever. The few DIY users are expected to help themselves.

Specifically, new PCs are supposed to be built with SATA harddisks, but will keep IDE opticals for a while.

99.99 percent of the total PC market don't overclock their CPU's either yet companies are catering to that market. Asus felt the upgrade market was strong enough to come out with a socket 939 board with AGP. Companies ARE coming out with MB's that have 2 PATA ports. So obviously the niche markets do matter.

Even more specifically, when buying those two 300 gig drives, you did have the choice of buying SATA models but didn't - and now that backwards oriented decision backfires on you.

That's fine, when I upgrade I'll just buy a MB that has 2 PATA ports even though it may limit my selection a bit. Maybe by the time PATA is phased out entirely SATA will actually make a difference................

 

[Peter]

a) Link to PCIE IDE controller chip please.
b) Sure, there's silly money to be made in the upgrade/enthusiast market, even though volumes are low. These things merely matter zip to the regular market.
c) SATA does make a difference already, mainly in case airflow - and the elimination of the master/slave concept also means higher throughput in systems with many drives. My point still stands: You've had the chance to migrate to SATA when you bought these drives, and you wouldn't have to keep buying obsoleting technology had you done so.

 

[sxr7171]

What about optical drives? Where are the SATA optical drives? I know there are a few but they are overpriced.

 

[slowpogo]

Yes, why spend $100+ on a SATA optical drive when I can get a nice NEC IDE model for $35? Isn't throughput limited by the optical technology itself more than the bus?

 

[Kakumba]

SATA opticals wont be released till OEMS decide they want them, according to BenQ. Lets face it, OEMS are where the manufacturers shift a lot of components. I have not even see any SATA optical drives for sale in NZ at all, regardelss of price.

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: Peter
Specifically, new PCs are supposed to be built with SATA harddisks, but will keep IDE opticals for a while.

Why are the optical drives staying with the IDE interface Peter? If the number of IDE ports is going to go to 1 per mobo (ala Intel chipsets), then it seems that the optical devices ought to be migrating to SATA also.

In my particular case, I have 2 nice optical drives in my system and each one has it's own IDE channel all to itself. If I were to go to a new i975X mobo I'd have to put both of them on the same channel which is not optimal. What is the driving force here that I don't see?

Back on topic, I have no problem with the low number of PCI slots on newer mobos. I'm actually kind of pissed that so few add-in items are coming in PCI-e flavors (Ageia PhysX anyone?). The sooner PCI dies the sooner add-in cards all come in PCI-e format with all the added bandwidth that that will bring (TV Tuners in specific).

 

[mudboy]

Originally posted by: Peter
They're thinking that consumers should educate themselves ... and they're moving from the 13 year old PCI slot to the modern standard.

There are PCIE TV cards, network cards, SATA controllers - and yes, they're PCIE 1x. More to come.

Your rant is very very similar to what we've heard when ISA slots were on their way out.

OK, show me a $40 x1 sound card. Or a $60 x4 software-based RAID controller.

Until Dell and HPaq start building systems that are PCI-free, you won't see these items in any decent type of selection. Same goes for SATA optical drives.

So, I would say the original poster has a valid point.

Pete

 

[RaymondY]

There are very few PCIe card out. I'm still looking for a -g wifi PCIe card.

 

[Peter]

Your $40 soundcard won't do any better than the onboard HD-Audio you already got on a modern board. Next.

Your software-based SATA RAID also is coming directly from the chipset's south bridge - four to six SATA connectors integrated. Next. (Besides, doing four-drive soft-RAID off PCIE 1x would be bandwidth limited - that's why SATA RAID cards are PCIE 4x.)

No more? Ah well then.

WiFi is best done off USB - because the antenna should be freely positionable for best signal quality (e.g. mine is up on the back of the monitor). So if you got to have an external thing anyway, why not put the logic into it as well?

SATA optical drives are not picking up speed mostly because SATA controller drivers aren't ready to support the ATAPI command set - and the driver writers don't bother because there are no drives yet. We'll be getting there come Vista.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: Peter
Your $40 soundcard won't do any better than the onboard HD-Audio you already got on a modern board. Next.

Your software-based SATA RAID also is coming directly from the chipset's south bridge - four to six SATA connectors integrated. Next. (Besides, doing four-drive soft-RAID off PCIE 1x would be bandwidth limited - that's why SATA RAID cards are PCIE 4x.)

No more? Ah well then.

WiFi is best done off USB - because the antenna should be freely positionable for best signal quality (e.g. mine is up on the back of the monitor). So if you got to have an external thing anyway, why not put the logic into it as well?

SATA optical drives are not picking up speed mostly because SATA controller drivers aren't ready to support the ATAPI command set - and the driver writers don't bother because there are no drives yet. We'll be getting there come Vista.

Your $40 soundcard won't do any better than the onboard HD-Audio you already got on a modern board. Next.

Bullsdust it won't!!! I've just installed an elcheapo CMI8738 based soundcard (same as what I put into lowend/midrange client builds) into my system to rid myself of the horrendous Realtek 850 integrated garbage. Talk about a huge difference! The system goes much faster now. Integrated audio (with the exception of nforce1/2) is cpu-sapping junk!

IDE drives are cheaper and have less issues overall than SATA drives (not to mention that the performance difference is non existant). You don't have to use the master/slave paradigm either - thats what ATA expansion cards are for. It would be nice to see PATA on PCI-e though, it would have made fitting a soundcard in a lot less troublesome on the board I have (already have an ATA expansion card in the only truly free PCI slot, the sound card is extremely close to the AGP graphics card, but fortunately isn't causing much of a temperature increase.