So I start treatment for alcoholism next week... *UPDATED! #2* 1/6/08

[Muadib]

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: Muadib

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: rise
what literature have you read that made you decide not to go to any meetings, to at least try them?

went to several online meetings and other forums and from what i've seen, they tell you to find god and straighten up. that's not how i see it. but if that works for people then by all means, use it.

So you just gave up without trying it? How the heck did going out drinking help?

i'm almost anti-religion, so there is no way i'm going to go in and sit there and listen at how these people found god and how it saved their life. well, guess what, god made you what you are, he gave you this disease/problem/whatever you want to call it, so you go ahead and thank him if you want.

This is just an excuse because a part of you doesn't want to give it up. You haven't even gone to a meeting so how do you know what people will say or how they will act?

Do you self a favor and just go. I don't care if you are Anti-Religion, you shouldn't either. Help is help.

Exactly!!!! Stop using religion as an excuse, and go get the help you need.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
AA
is

bullsh*t
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nbwg_7sY1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI0iXXxZulI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIOnTzg9lzA

wow, that series is bullshit. alcoholism is a disease, a progressive disease, and there are genes that tend to make one susceptible to alcohol abuse. i have about 7 people in my immediate family who are also alcoholics.

it is true some people are genetically more suseptable because they derive more pleasure from alcohol. the label of desease for something that is basically poor behavior is pc nonsense that was created so people could shirk responsibility, pushing it off on some "disease". frankly it is counter productive nonsense as it enables and helps rationalize bad behavior.

but it doesn't mean that AA isn't bullsh*t. theres nothing scientific or tested about AA.

Alcoholism is only "counter-productive nonsense" if somebody uses it as an excuse for their behavior. Nobody that I know uses alcoholism to excuse their behavior, rather they use it as a context in which to come to terms with their addiction.

You basically want to throw the baby out with the bathwater because some people take no responsibility for their actions and instead blame it all on alcohol and alcoholism.

 

[purepolly]

[so there is no way i'm going to go in and sit there and listen at how these people found ALCOHOL and how it DESTROYED their life. well, guess what, ALCOHOL made you what you are, ALCOHOL gave you this disease/problem/whatever you want to call it, so you go ahead and thank ALCOHOL if you want.[/quote]

fixed for your benefit...

 

[thecrecarc]

Originally posted by: Muadib

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: Muadib

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: rise
what literature have you read that made you decide not to go to any meetings, to at least try them?

went to several online meetings and other forums and from what i've seen, they tell you to find god and straighten up. that's not how i see it. but if that works for people then by all means, use it.

So you just gave up without trying it? How the heck did going out drinking help?

i'm almost anti-religion, so there is no way i'm going to go in and sit there and listen at how these people found god and how it saved their life. well, guess what, god made you what you are, he gave you this disease/problem/whatever you want to call it, so you go ahead and thank him if you want.

This is just an excuse because a part of you doesn't want to give it up. You haven't even gone to a meeting so how do you know what people will say or how they will act?

Do you self a favor and just go. I don't care if you are Anti-Religion, you shouldn't either. Help is help.

Exactly!!!! Stop using religion as an excuse, and go get the help you need.

Or heres an idea, go to an achoholic recovery group thats NOT religious! ever think of that?

 

[RossMAN]

Psst it's 08 not 07

 

[911paramedic]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Your line, 'AA is BS' is BS itself. Sure, it may be religious, but it works. So what if believing in a doorknob helps IF IT HELPS??!! The goal is to stop drinking and if it works (which is has worked for lots of people), then why is it BS? The quality of these people's lives has improved dramatically and I would say that this is what really matters.

qft, religion is basically BS in many people's books as well, BUT if you can get those that buy into it sold...you have cured them.

90% of the world is BS...most people whether they like it or not are a sucker.

It's not the higher power that helps you, its the support of the other people. It's like these religious zealots that refuse to see a doctor because "God will cure them". A belief in a higher power, which is a doorknob, is crazy.

"Now I lay me down to sleep,
If I die before I wake,
I pray the doorknob my soul to take."

:roll:

It's a religious program, plain and simple. Thank God (hehe) the supreme court finally saw it that way too.

 

[BoomerD]

Personally, I've never bought into the whole "alcoholism is a disease" bullshit. It's an addiction, just like heroin or methamphetamine. It can be a terribly difficult addiction to break, but many people manage to do so. I quit drinking in 1995. I was drinking a fifth of Crown Royal every night...no exceptions. (once you open a bottle of whiskey, you HAVE to drink it all, otherwise it'll go bad overnight) I was being downsized from what was possibly the best job I've ever had, (crane operator for an electrical utility) and for the first time in my life, I stressed over losing a job. Finally, my wife decided she'd had enough...she sat me down and told me, "This job has been a good ride, we've managed to accomplish a lot of our life goals, but it's still JUST A JOB. It's never bothered you in the past when you got laid off, got fired, or quit a job, don't let this one get to you. You're good at what you do, you'll find another job easily enough." I realized she was right...and made the decision to stop drinking. I didn't touch a drop for about 5 years, even though I'd often go to the bar after work with some of the crew. I never realized how funny people get when they get drunk! I'd drink iced tea and laugh at them...(BTW, after I quit drinking, I busted my ass and lined up a new job, then went in and quit the job with the electrical utility...stunning everyone...NO ONE quits there...once you get hired, you stay till you retire...
Nowadays, I can have an occasional beer with my meals, or even a few cocktails when we're in Hawaii, but I haven't been drunk once since I quit drinking. (but 2 beers gives me a pretty good buzz...enough to know I've had too much)
Alcoholism is a difficult addiction to break...but you CAN do it if you set your mind to it. Fuck the counselors, fuck A.A., fuck the religion cures...those are for the weak who NEED a crutch to do this. All you really have to do is make the decision that you're NOT going to let booze (or drugs) run your life...and stick to it.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Stay off the anti-depressants, lots of us have anxiety and can get through life fine without turning to psycho drugs.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: Fmr12B
Stay off the anti-depressants, lots of us have anxiety and can get through life fine without turning to psycho drugs.

i get sick of SSRIs being handed out like candy like they can solve every issue someone has in their life be it big or small.

SSRIs can cause anxiety like no anxiety you have ever had. the meds change the chemicals in your brain. while i won't go as far as to say that no one ever benefits from anti-depressants, i will say that a lot of people on them shouldn't be.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
AA
is

bullsh*t
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nbwg_7sY1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI0iXXxZulI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIOnTzg9lzA

wow, that series is bullshit. alcoholism is a disease, a progressive disease, and there are genes that tend to make one susceptible to alcohol abuse. i have about 7 people in my immediate family who are also alcoholics.

it is true some people are genetically more suseptable because they derive more pleasure from alcohol. the label of desease for something that is basically poor behavior is pc nonsense that was created so people could shirk responsibility, pushing it off on some "disease". frankly it is counter productive nonsense as it enables and helps rationalize bad behavior.

but it doesn't mean that AA isn't bullsh*t. theres nothing scientific or tested about AA.

Alcoholism is only "counter-productive nonsense" if somebody uses it as an excuse for their behavior. Nobody that I know uses alcoholism to excuse their behavior, rather they use it as a context in which to come to terms with their addiction.

You basically want to throw the baby out with the bathwater because some people take no responsibility for their actions and instead blame it all on alcohol and alcoholism.

Actually, Every day AA/NA is empirically tested in the real world , with varying degrees of success, (or failure, your editorial pov may vary), depending on test subjects. What's not scientific about that?

Secondly, and more importantly imo, is this mistaken notion that by using the methodology within AA/NA, one is seeking absolution / is absolved of any personal responsibility. IN FACT, if one actually understands what is being said and taught through "The Program", is the only honest accepting of personal responsibility an addict will make in a very long time.
Furthermore, what I've observed is that the thing that some people will find objectionable about someone in "The Program" is their subsequent adherance to principled behavior, sometimes to extremes, and some people think they should be more contrite.
Contrition is part of the many steps along that path, and I don't think it's healthy to stay there too long.
The expression of joy of living is annoying to some people.
Too bad for them.

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: rise
what literature have you read that made you decide not to go to any meetings, to at least try them?

went to several online meetings and other forums and from what i've seen, they tell you to find god and straighten up. that's not how i see it. but if that works for people then by all means, use it.

try reading the big book. you can usually get one at any AA meeting if you ask. it even has a chapter for non believers.

"living sober" is another good one.

also, not all meetings are the same. the best in my area is called the looney noony, a m-f, lunchtime one hour discussion meeting where people talk about everyday coping, not just "drunkalogs", which can get tired fast.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Personally, I've never bought into the whole "alcoholism is a disease" bullshit. It's an addiction, just like heroin or methamphetamine. It can be a terribly difficult addiction to break, but many people manage to do so. ......
Alcoholism is a difficult addiction to break...but you CAN do it if you set your mind to it. Fuck the counselors, fuck A.A., fuck the religion cures...those are for the weak who NEED a crutch to do this. All you really have to do is make the decision that you're NOT going to let booze (or drugs) run your life...and stick to it.

While I shared your opinion regarding "disease" at one time, an extended conversation with a well respected Neural Psychologist (from The Mayo in AZ) about that very topic has changed my mind. There are many COMPONENTS to what the brain does what it does, and what works for one may not work to the same degree in another, or be in a different part of the brain, than another.
All that to say... your one size fits all approach , doesn't.
Addicts are "weak who need a crutch", so your invocation flies in the face of reality.
That decision to not let drugs or booze not ruin your life is also known as "Just for today."
It's a day to day, moment to moment thing for some.


I know how it is.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Personally, I've never bought into the whole "alcoholism is a disease" bullshit. It's an addiction, just like heroin or methamphetamine. It can be a terribly difficult addiction to break, but many people manage to do so. ......
Alcoholism is a difficult addiction to break...but you CAN do it if you set your mind to it. Fuck the counselors, fuck A.A., fuck the religion cures...those are for the weak who NEED a crutch to do this. All you really have to do is make the decision that you're NOT going to let booze (or drugs) run your life...and stick to it.

While I shared your opinion regarding "disease" at one time, an extended conversation with a well respected Neural Psychologist (from The Mayo in AZ) about that very topic has changed my mind. There are many COMPONENTS to what the brain does what it does, and what works for one may not work to the same degree in another, or be in a different part of the brain, than another.
All that to say... your one size fits all approach , doesn't.
Addicts are "weak who need a crutch", so your invocation flies in the face of reality.
That decision to not let drugs or booze not ruin your life is also known as "Just for today."
It's a day to day, moment to moment thing for some.


I know how it is.

I too know how it is, and how difficult it can be to break addictions...I've tried to stop smoking several times...and I always end up going back for one reason or another. While the two drugs are different, (nocotine and alcohol) they are both serious addictive substances that are readily available and are considered to be MORE addictive than heroin.
I stand by the statement that you CAN quit if you set your mind to it...no one except YOU can make you quit. Some people need a support group to help them maintain their resolution to quit. THAT is a crutch...by any other name. Some people have "addictive" personalities. I can't argue that...I have one. THAT can make giving up a habit or addiction more difficult than for other people. For those people, the support group may be a necessity.
It seems like alcoholism is considered to be a disease rather than a weakness because it's so common, and calling it a disease is more acceptable than calling it a weakness. I'm weak in some areas...I admit it...I have difficulty with nicotine. Fortunately, I was able to overcome my weakness with alcohol...and earlier in my life, with other addictive substances.
ANYONE can quit...but it's up to them to make it happen. No one can do it for you.

 

[1sikbITCH]

Originally posted by: JohnCU
EDIT: Updated #2 for those who care. I didn't attend any AA meetings because I can't get past the spirituality part. I saw the counselor a second time and she didn't help me with the pills, just offered more alcoholic support. I joined a group called SMART (self-management and recovery training?) and they have an online chat that they do daily that helps but i did a little experiment. i stopped taking my anti-depressants and i feel so much better, and the cravings have different "voices" and i don't get drunk anymore. tonight, a friend invited me to a bar and i've been drinking since 6 pm and i can still type, talk and socialize without any problems since i've been off the drugs. now i have a decision to make: either live life with anxiety and no drugs or live life without anxiety and alcoholism/depression? weird, isn't it? anti-depressants make me depressed and alcoholic but take away my anxiety.
such is life.

Dude you are screwed. You are in for 20-30 years of pain trying to manage a pitiful existence in a chemical fog before you hit rock bottom and decide to do whatever it takes. Or, you'll OD first and die.

You're just not ready yet. I wish you luck though.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: 1sikbITCH

Originally posted by: JohnCU
EDIT: Updated #2 for those who care. I didn't attend any AA meetings because I can't get past the spirituality part. I saw the counselor a second time and she didn't help me with the pills, just offered more alcoholic support. I joined a group called SMART (self-management and recovery training?) and they have an online chat that they do daily that helps but i did a little experiment. i stopped taking my anti-depressants and i feel so much better, and the cravings have different "voices" and i don't get drunk anymore. tonight, a friend invited me to a bar and i've been drinking since 6 pm and i can still type, talk and socialize without any problems since i've been off the drugs. now i have a decision to make: either live life with anxiety and no drugs or live life without anxiety and alcoholism/depression? weird, isn't it? anti-depressants make me depressed and alcoholic but take away my anxiety.
such is life.

Dude you are screwed. You are in for 20-30 years of pain trying to manage a pitiful existence in a chemical fog before you hit rock bottom and decide to do whatever it takes. Or, you'll OD first and die.

You're just not ready yet. I wish you luck though.

This is true.You're still self medicating, in that YOU've decided to quit taking the Anti - anxiety meds.
At least enjoy the ride.

 

[JohnCU]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: 1sikbITCH

Originally posted by: JohnCU
EDIT: Updated #2 for those who care. I didn't attend any AA meetings because I can't get past the spirituality part. I saw the counselor a second time and she didn't help me with the pills, just offered more alcoholic support. I joined a group called SMART (self-management and recovery training?) and they have an online chat that they do daily that helps but i did a little experiment. i stopped taking my anti-depressants and i feel so much better, and the cravings have different "voices" and i don't get drunk anymore. tonight, a friend invited me to a bar and i've been drinking since 6 pm and i can still type, talk and socialize without any problems since i've been off the drugs. now i have a decision to make: either live life with anxiety and no drugs or live life without anxiety and alcoholism/depression? weird, isn't it? anti-depressants make me depressed and alcoholic but take away my anxiety.
such is life.

Dude you are screwed. You are in for 20-30 years of pain trying to manage a pitiful existence in a chemical fog before you hit rock bottom and decide to do whatever it takes. Or, you'll OD first and die.

You're just not ready yet. I wish you luck though.

This is true.You're still self medicating, in that YOU've decided to quit taking the Anti - anxiety meds.
At least enjoy the ride.

wait, what? i don't use the alcohol for anxiety problems, i've had them since i was 13 and i didn't drink until i was 21.

 

[zerocool1]

best of luck to you

 

[40sTheme]

Good luck. Keep on trying and don't let some of the fools in this thread get you down. Do what YOU think you need to do until you've settled this.

 

[Number1]

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: Muadib

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: rise
what literature have you read that made you decide not to go to any meetings, to at least try them?

went to several online meetings and other forums and from what i've seen, they tell you to find god and straighten up. that's not how i see it. but if that works for people then by all means, use it.

So you just gave up without trying it? How the heck did going out drinking help?

i'm almost anti-religion, so there is no way i'm going to go in and sit there and listen at how these people found god and how it saved their life. well, guess what, god made you what you are, he gave you this disease/problem/whatever you want to call it, so you go ahead and thank him if you want.

I hate to point this out to you but they are sober and you're not.
I think that people need to reach their "bottom" before they become willing to do what is needed to stop drinking. Some people loose everything the own before they reach it. Some people go crazy before they reach it. Some people die before they reach it. In the end, it's a personal choice. Drink and face the consequences or do something about it.
No luck needed, just a desire to stop drinking and a willingness to do WHATEVER is nesesary to achieve it.

Because it realy is a fight for your life.

 

[1sikbITCH]

Originally posted by: JohnCU

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: 1sikbITCH

Originally posted by: JohnCU
EDIT: Updated #2 for those who care. I didn't attend any AA meetings because I can't get past the spirituality part. I saw the counselor a second time and she didn't help me with the pills, just offered more alcoholic support. I joined a group called SMART (self-management and recovery training?) and they have an online chat that they do daily that helps but i did a little experiment. i stopped taking my anti-depressants and i feel so much better, and the cravings have different "voices" and i don't get drunk anymore. tonight, a friend invited me to a bar and i've been drinking since 6 pm and i can still type, talk and socialize without any problems since i've been off the drugs. now i have a decision to make: either live life with anxiety and no drugs or live life without anxiety and alcoholism/depression? weird, isn't it? anti-depressants make me depressed and alcoholic but take away my anxiety.
such is life.

Dude you are screwed. You are in for 20-30 years of pain trying to manage a pitiful existence in a chemical fog before you hit rock bottom and decide to do whatever it takes. Or, you'll OD first and die.

You're just not ready yet. I wish you luck though.

This is true.You're still self medicating, in that YOU've decided to quit taking the Anti - anxiety meds.
At least enjoy the ride.

wait, what? i don't use the alcohol for anxiety problems, i've had them since i was 13 and i didn't drink until i was 21.

In an attempt to manage your addictions you are choosing between supposedly prescribed anti-depressants and alcohol. In your mind this is a perfectly logical solution, and you do not realize just how sick you are to think that this is anything less than insane. If you have been diagnosed with clinical depression or bi-polar or something and it's bad enough they have to keep you medicated than you have no business drinking, and if not you need to just learn how to deal with being anxious and stop using the pills as a crutch.

Furthermore you say that you will not try 12 step programs because you think they will shove god down your throat. I will say it again. I myself profess loudly to anyone who will listen that religion and gods are a crock of shit, and I have used a 12 step program to defeat numerous addictions. I started out as a drunk, ended up addicted to crack AND heroin and sit here today with 8 years clean. You can still gain the tools you will need to stay clean while ignoring all the God crap.

The NA program is FAR less religion based than AA, and you should at least go to a meeting or two and check it out. But instead you will continue to seek ways to manage your addiction and control it. Until you can fully surrender to the fact that you cannot drink AT ALL you are just spinning your wheels. At least try to stay away from needles and crack pipes when the booze and pills don't do it for you any more.

Sorry to be an ass but it pisses me off to see people where I was and knowing that they will have to waste years and decades just like I did instead of listening to someone.

 

[eersnherd]

Okay, after about a year or so of sitting back and not registering, I had to respond to this message.

I am a counselor and work with those suffering from addictions daily.

My advice is don't try to change until you are READY!

Nobody else can do it for you....you can't change for your spouse, children, significant other, parents....anybody. You can only change your behavior when you want to experience the change for yourself!

Otherwise. If religion is getting in your way, remember, the 12-steps are a spiritual program. Yes they do say "GOD" but you can supplement that with your own Higher Power. Mind-Body-Spirit are components of recovery.

If spirituality turns you off completely, you can always turn to Rational Recovery which is essentially the antithesis of AA/NA.

Look up Jack Trimpey's book, "Rational Recovery" here: http://www.amazon.com/Rational...&qid=1199678813&sr=8-1

Remember, everyone's path to recovery is a little different. You shouldn't be placed into a box with everyone else just because AA/NA, whatever, has worked for them.

Good luck to you on your path!

 

[1sikbITCH]

Originally posted by: eersnherd
Okay, after about a year or so of sitting back and not registering, I had to respond to this message.

I am a counselor and work with those suffering from addictions daily.

My advice is don't try to change until you are READY!

Nobody else can do it for you....you can't change for your spouse, children, significant other, parents....anybody. You can only change your behavior when you want to experience the change for yourself!

Otherwise. If religion is getting in your way, remember, the 12-steps are a spiritual program. Yes they do say "GOD" but you can supplement that with your own Higher Power. Mind-Body-Spirit are components of recovery.

If spirituality turns you off completely, you can always turn to Rational Recovery which is essentially the antithesis of AA/NA.

Look up Jack Trimpey's book, "Rational Recovery" here: http://www.amazon.com/Rational...&qid=1199678813&sr=8-1

Remember, everyone's path to recovery is a little different. You shouldn't be placed into a box with everyone else just because AA/NA, whatever, has worked for them.

Good luck to you on your path!

Welcome to the forums, eersnherd and thanks for the quality first post! I agree with all of what you said. 12 step programs do not work for everyone and are not the only way out. However, in many cases they do seem to work for a lot of people after counselors, psychiatrists, and recovery programs have failed. I do not understand why there cannot be a program that teaches the tools of recovery without incorporating god or higher powers, but to my knowledge they do not seem to exist. Maybe that book is a start.

 

[L00ker]

Originally posted by: SmoochyTX
Fuck you and your excuses. You would admit yourself to an inpatient facility to help with the physical withdrawal because that's what you're really in fear of. It's obvious you're whoring for attention and the kids here satisfy that need for you. If you really felt you needed the level of help you've expressed earlier in this thread, you wouldn't be here now.

That's really what it comes down to.

I'm with this guy,

I was at one time easily considered an alcholic, for easily 2x (possibly longer) as long as you claim to have been which usually means I have a deeper hole to get out of and all your crutches are nothing more than a weak excuse to continue behaving the way you do.

Alcohol doesn't get you drunk, YOU DRINKING IT IN EXCESS does, just like guns don't kill people, people kill people.

So either quit your whining and bullshit and stop abusing or choke on your own vomit so we don't have to hear your incessant whining. Shit or get off the pot...

At the end of the day it's as simple as making a choice, any other explanation/excuse is just a bunch of BS, but I am sure you have some long winded excuse or way of rationalizing that as well :roll:

 

[maxster]

Maybe you should switch to smoking weed.