So if Jesus Christ returns for the second time. What miracle must he do.....

[AlienCraft]

Let's see that loaves and fishes thing at ohhhh, I dunno, say Oakland Coliseum (oops my bad, bad memories huh?) in the middle of July.
You tell the brothers there's no Orange Soda... If you live that's the miracle......

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
This is the beauty of the word faith...

and the irony at the same time.

If they were truly "faithful", they would find peace in that alone, and not be dragged into the turmoil of conflict that the non believers seem to be able to embroil them in.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
This is the beauty of the word faith...

and the irony at the same time.

If they were truly "faithful", they would find peace in that alone, and not be dragged into the turmoil of conflict that the non believers seem to be able to embroil them in.

faith does not entail a completely subdued reaction to inflammatory and sometimes unnecessary attacks from those who do not share in one's beliefs. it would be a perfect world if we could all turn the other cheek, but i think we can all agree that inherently this is quite a difficult quality to develop.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
This is the beauty of the word faith...

and the irony at the same time.

If they were truly "faithful", they would find peace in that alone, and not be dragged into the turmoil of conflict that the non believers seem to be able to embroil them in.

Heh-heh...yeah, let's go kill the unbelievers for Jeezus...:roll:

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Do you have any proof (other than anecdotal evidence from uneducated, superstitious people) that your Jesus Christ has even been here once?

Umm, yea. Its widely acknowledged by historians and roman manuscripts that Jesus was indeed here. As for his works, that is when you have to turn to faith and the Bible-- which is, in a lot of ways, even more concrete.

-Kevin

Umm...now you're falling back on the anecdotal evidence. There's nothing that PROVES the existance of "Jesus, The Son of God" in any of that, just that a man named Jesus MAY have existed.
The rest is just fairy tales...designed to control the unlearned masses...

"Live according to these rules and you can go live with the sky-fairies when you die. If you don't, you go to an unpleasant place full of pain and misery."

If I gotta choose, I'm going with the Eastern notion that Hell is here on Earth, this very plane of existence and that only by transcending the vulgar & base urges/choices one makes, can one ascend along the path towards the 'enlightenment'of the higher state of being.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Do you have any proof (other than anecdotal evidence from uneducated, superstitious people) that your Jesus Christ has even been here once?

Umm, yea. Its widely acknowledged by historians and roman manuscripts that Jesus was indeed here. As for his works, that is when you have to turn to faith and the Bible-- which is, in a lot of ways, even more concrete.

-Kevin

Umm...now you're falling back on the anecdotal evidence. There's nothing that PROVES the existance of "Jesus, The Son of God" in any of that, just that a man named Jesus MAY have existed.
The rest is just fairy tales...designed to control the unlearned masses...

"Live according to these rules and you can go live with the sky-fairies when you die. If you don't, you go to an unpleasant place full of pain and misery."

Why are they fairy tales? You do know that scholars and skeptics have torn the Bible apart of the centuries and they STILL cannot find evidence to disprove it. Not only the roman manuscripts acknowledge the presence of Jesus as well as the place where he was crucified.

So what then do you have: is it faith, is it proof, or is it Memorex? One definition of faith is, "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

So then, 7 days. 7 real days, or not? Literal or anecdotal? Yes, these have all been proven completely, that's why there's such great harmony among organized religions.

I have faith. Through the Bible, God's inspired word, I have evidence enough to grant me that faith based on the recount of happenings over the centuries.

Heh-heh...yeah, let's go kill the unbelievers for Jeezus...

Anyone who does anything remotely like that is not a Christian... and I can't believe you would lump everyone who claims to be a Christian with the faith-- even though their acts deny their faith.

-Kevin

 

[Jeff7]

I have faith. Through the Bible, God's inspired word, I have evidence enough to grant me that faith based on the recount of happenings over the centuries.

Except that the Bible is what says that it's the word of God.

I could write, "These answers are all correct - God" on a test, but the professor probably wouldn't believe it. Why is that piece of paper any different? Both writings were scribed down by a person, and who's to say that either one is any more valid than the other?

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
This is the beauty of the word faith...

and the irony at the same time.

If they were truly "faithful", they would find peace in that alone, and not be dragged into the turmoil of conflict that the non believers seem to be able to embroil them in.

faith does not entail a completely subdued reaction to inflammatory and sometimes unnecessary attacks from those who do not share in one's beliefs. it would be a perfect world if we could all turn the other cheek, but i think we can all agree that inherently this is quite a difficult quality to develop.

I'm speaking more towards the tendency for them to proselytize, regardless of any assurance that my spiritual needs are adequately considered, thanks just the same.
This is the point of conflict to which I refer, one that is of their making the instant they reject that assurance and feel the need to continue the discussion.

It has been my experience that the current crop of "BornAgains" have little regard for other's personal relationship with God, should it not fall along their narrow view of what is an appropriate belief system.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: MillionaireNextDoor
Seriously now,

If people weren't convinced when he came the first time and did his miracles back then (healing the crippled, paralyzed, deaf, mute, and the blind, feeding thousands of people by multiplying a boy's lunch, walking on water, calming storms and waves, raising people from the dead, even raising himself from the dead), people still won't be convinced through miracles alone when he returns the second time.

Luke 16:30-31 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' "He (Abraham) said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

The fact is that when we see a miracle, we'll simply think of a reason as to how it could've been done, as we normally do this day and age. So we should ask ourselves again: what will it really take to at least start having an open mind and investigate deeply and objectively?

Easy. The miracle has to be repeatable under controlled laboratory conditions.

lol If you can reproduce it in a lab, it's not a miracle. A miracle involves violating natural laws, by definition. And only God can do that.

As the Bible says "Blessed are they that have not seen, yet still believe" Witnessing a miracle doesn't necessarily cement one's belief. Though it would do the trick for many, others would still obstinately refuse to concede what they witnessed.

Jesus' next appearance won't be stealth mode like the first time. He shows up it'll be obvious exactly who he is. No miracles necessary.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Do you have any proof (other than anecdotal evidence from uneducated, superstitious people) that your Jesus Christ has even been here once?

Umm, yea. Its widely acknowledged by historians and roman manuscripts that Jesus was indeed here. As for his works, that is when you have to turn to faith and the Bible-- which is, in a lot of ways, even more concrete.

-Kevin

If by concrete you mean contradictory and full of tall tales that have no basis in reality then yes, it is concrete.

Contradictory? Examples?

And tales with no basis? Once again examples?

Faith - believing completely in that for which no evidence exists.

Absolutely not-- perhaps a blind faith. The Bible has been around for thousands of years, has been torn apart inside and out and yet still stands because people cannot prove otherwise. That to me is more than enough evidence to say that I am saved...

-Kevin

SEVENTEEN HUNDRED YEARS, collected and edited by order of a Pagan Emperor to serve his purpose of Empire. Blind faith is blind. Even the bible tells you to doubt.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Do you have any proof (other than anecdotal evidence from uneducated, superstitious people) that your Jesus Christ has even been here once?

Umm, yea. Its widely acknowledged by historians and roman manuscripts that Jesus was indeed here. As for his works, that is when you have to turn to faith and the Bible-- which is, in a lot of ways, even more concrete.

-Kevin

Umm...now you're falling back on the anecdotal evidence. There's nothing that PROVES the existance of "Jesus, The Son of God" in any of that, just that a man named Jesus MAY have existed.
The rest is just fairy tales...designed to control the unlearned masses...

"Live according to these rules and you can go live with the sky-fairies when you die. If you don't, you go to an unpleasant place full of pain and misery."

Why are they fairy tales? You do know that scholars and skeptics have torn the Bible apart of the centuries and they STILL cannot find evidence to disprove it. Not only the roman manuscripts acknowledge the presence of Jesus as well as the place where he was crucified.

So what then do you have: is it faith, is it proof, or is it Memorex? One definition of faith is, "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

So then, 7 days. 7 real days, or not? Literal or anecdotal? Yes, these have all been proven completely, that's why there's such great harmony among organized religions.

I have faith. Through the Bible, God's inspired word, I have evidence enough to grant me that faith based on the recount of happenings over the centuries.

Heh-heh...yeah, let's go kill the unbelievers for Jeezus...

Anyone who does anything remotely like that is not a Christian... and I can't believe you would lump everyone who claims to be a Christian with the faith-- even though their acts deny their faith.

-Kevin

Ever hear of The Crusades? How about the Inquisition?

What about the Spanish explorers who murdered thousands upon thousands of "heathens" who wouldn't bow to the priests?
What about all the knowledge and teachings that were destroyed by the same Spaniards because the knowledge didn't conform to what the priests believed/knew?

FAR too many wars have been fought over "MY God is better than YOUR God," and X-tians are right in the middle of many of them.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
This is the beauty of the word faith...

and the irony at the same time.

If they were truly "faithful", they would find peace in that alone, and not be dragged into the turmoil of conflict that the non believers seem to be able to embroil them in.

Heh-heh...yeah, let's go kill the unbelievers for Jeezus...:roll:

Funny that doctrine is totally absent from Christianity. You don't even have to visit church to notice that. If there was such a doctrine, this country would have been a blood bath ever since it's inception. Plus, we'd even have laws in the US allowing us to persecute and kill unbelievers.

Don't believe all the baseless fear-mongering of anti-Christian types. Sadly, truth doesn't always catch up with the lies.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: MillionaireNextDoor
Seriously now,

If people weren't convinced when he came the first time and did his miracles back then (healing the crippled, paralyzed, deaf, mute, and the blind, feeding thousands of people by multiplying a boy's lunch, walking on water, calming storms and waves, raising people from the dead, even raising himself from the dead), people still won't be convinced through miracles alone when he returns the second time.

Luke 16:30-31 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' "He (Abraham) said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

The fact is that when we see a miracle, we'll simply think of a reason as to how it could've been done, as we normally do this day and age. So we should ask ourselves again: what will it really take to at least start having an open mind and investigate deeply and objectively?

Easy. The miracle has to be repeatable under controlled laboratory conditions.

lol If you can reproduce it in a lab, it's not a miracle. A miracle involves violating natural laws, by definition. And only God can do that.

As the Bible says "Blessed are they that have not seen, yet still believe" Witnessing a miracle doesn't necessarily cement one's belief. Though it would do the trick for many, others would still obstinately refuse to concede what they witnessed.

Jesus' next appearance won't be stealth mode like the first time. He shows up it'll be obvious exactly who he is. No miracles necessary.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's not obstinate to require this.

The hilarious thing about faith is that though every religious person claims to have it, they are CONSTANTLY scrabblng for real-world validation of their beliefs. In other words, they want to KNOW.

 

[imported_yovonbishop]

Get me a decent job in upstate NY.

 

[Modelworks]

On the whole creation, 7 days, Adam and Eve thing.
Guys you need to think like the people with the knowledge they had then would think.

Your thinking about it based on what you know now. These people didn't know the earth was round and your expecting them to say things like, well there was this big bang, and he used dna and spliced it......


If some supreme being created you and you only had the knowledge they would have had at the time before Noah, how would you describe creation and where you came from ?

I would really love to read some of your attempts at describing it.


Remember God , nor Jesus, never wrote a single word in the bible, with the exception of the ten commandments. Thats the only text directly attributed to God.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Do you have any proof (other than anecdotal evidence from uneducated, superstitious people) that your Jesus Christ has even been here once?

Umm, yea. Its widely acknowledged by historians and roman manuscripts that Jesus was indeed here. As for his works, that is when you have to turn to faith and the Bible-- which is, in a lot of ways, even more concrete.

-Kevin

Umm...now you're falling back on the anecdotal evidence. There's nothing that PROVES the existance of "Jesus, The Son of God" in any of that, just that a man named Jesus MAY have existed.
The rest is just fairy tales...designed to control the unlearned masses...

"Live according to these rules and you can go live with the sky-fairies when you die. If you don't, you go to an unpleasant place full of pain and misery."

Why are they fairy tales? You do know that scholars and skeptics have torn the Bible apart of the centuries and they STILL cannot find evidence to disprove it. Not only the roman manuscripts acknowledge the presence of Jesus as well as the place where he was crucified.

So what then do you have: is it faith, is it proof, or is it Memorex? One definition of faith is, "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

So then, 7 days. 7 real days, or not? Literal or anecdotal? Yes, these have all been proven completely, that's why there's such great harmony among organized religions.

I have faith. Through the Bible, God's inspired word, I have evidence enough to grant me that faith based on the recount of happenings over the centuries.

Heh-heh...yeah, let's go kill the unbelievers for Jeezus...

Anyone who does anything remotely like that is not a Christian... and I can't believe you would lump everyone who claims to be a Christian with the faith-- even though their acts deny their faith.

-Kevin

Ever hear of The Crusades? How about the Inquisition?

What about the Spanish explorers who murdered thousands upon thousands of "heathens" who wouldn't bow to the priests?
What about all the knowledge and teachings that were destroyed by the same Spaniards because the knowledge didn't conform to what the priests believed/knew?

FAR too many wars have been fought over "MY God is better than YOUR God," and X-tians are right in the middle of many of them.

You are judging the religion of millions based on the irrational and irresponsible actions of those years past. The Bible specifically says "Thou shalt not kill" -- their cause was not just, it was twisted.

I'm not here to make excuses for them though. I acknowledge that they claimed to be part of the Christian faith, and to that I say: Can you not forgive? Everyone makes mistakes-- some more grave than others. But can you hold that over everyone's head forever.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's not obstinate to require this.

The hilarious thing about faith is that though every religious person claims to have it, they are CONSTANTLY scrabblng for real-world validation of their beliefs. In other words, they want to KNOW.

We are human-- of course we are going to strive to understand that which does not need explanation, nor can we ever explain. However; a person who is truly living by faith is never scrabbling for validation. Have you ever watched a debate between a Creationist and otherwise... the Creationist absolutely dismantles any and everything the other says. That is not scrabbling for validation, that is putting the word of God in blunt fashion...

-Kevin

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
On the whole creation, 7 days, Adam and Eve thing.
Guys you need to think like the people with the knowledge they had then would think.

Your thinking about it based on what you know now. These people didn't know the earth was round and your expecting them to say things like, well there was this big bang, and he used dna and spliced it......


If some supreme being created you and you only had the knowledge they would have had at the time before Noah, how would you describe creation and where you came from ?

I would really love to read some of your attempts at describing it.


Remember God , nor Jesus, never wrote a single word in the bible, with the exception of the ten commandments. Thats the only text directly attributed to God.

I thought the Bible was God's divine inspiration, not the creative writing of humans. Shouldn't God's word be independent of the state of human technology and culture?

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
We are human-- of course we are going to strive to understand that which does not need explanation, nor can we ever explain. However; a person who is truly living by faith is never scrabbling for validation. Have you ever watched a debate between a Creationist and otherwise... the Creationist absolutely dismantles any and everything the other says. That is not scrabbling for validation, that is putting the word of God in blunt fashion...

-Kevin

We must be watching very different debates. The usual argument is, "If you scientists can't explain it, then it's God, and God doesn't need to follow your logic, and is thus exempt from scientific proof." It's throwing in a get-out-of-jail free card in a game of chess.
The whole intelligent design argument is based on this - we can't perfectly explain every single tiny detail about how evolution works (and until we develop time travel, we likely won't have every last detail figured out), therefore it must be something higher, some other creator entity. Since this entity exists above and beyond our understanding, we shouldn't even try, and should just say, "God did it," and leave it at that. Anything more would be questioning faith, which would put you on the fast-track to Hell.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Modelworks
On the whole creation, 7 days, Adam and Eve thing.
Guys you need to think like the people with the knowledge they had then would think.

Your thinking about it based on what you know now. These people didn't know the earth was round and your expecting them to say things like, well there was this big bang, and he used dna and spliced it......


If some supreme being created you and you only had the knowledge they would have had at the time before Noah, how would you describe creation and where you came from ?

I would really love to read some of your attempts at describing it.


Remember God , nor Jesus, never wrote a single word in the bible, with the exception of the ten commandments. Thats the only text directly attributed to God.

I thought the Bible was God's divine inspiration, not the creative writing of humans. Shouldn't God's word be independent of the state of human technology and culture?

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
We are human-- of course we are going to strive to understand that which does not need explanation, nor can we ever explain. However; a person who is truly living by faith is never scrabbling for validation. Have you ever watched a debate between a Creationist and otherwise... the Creationist absolutely dismantles any and everything the other says. That is not scrabbling for validation, that is putting the word of God in blunt fashion...

-Kevin

We must be watching very different debates. The usual argument is, "If you scientists can't explain it, then it's God, and God doesn't need to follow your logic, and is thus exempt from scientific proof."
It's throwing in a get-out-of-jail free card in a game of chess.

Watch well respected Christians not ones who try and make excuses for what they/we do not understand-- Ravi Zacharias for instance. One of the best speakers I have ever heard...

 

[RedArmy]

Text

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: RedArmy
Text

That is horribly inappropriate and I wish you would argue in a civil manner and not bash something which I care about.

-Kevin

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Do you have any proof (other than anecdotal evidence from uneducated, superstitious people) that your Jesus Christ has even been here once?

Umm, yea. Its widely acknowledged by historians and roman manuscripts that Jesus was indeed here. As for his works, that is when you have to turn to faith and the Bible-- which is, in a lot of ways, even more concrete.

-Kevin

Umm...now you're falling back on the anecdotal evidence. There's nothing that PROVES the existance of "Jesus, The Son of God" in any of that, just that a man named Jesus MAY have existed.
The rest is just fairy tales...designed to control the unlearned masses...

"Live according to these rules and you can go live with the sky-fairies when you die. If you don't, you go to an unpleasant place full of pain and misery."

Why are they fairy tales? You do know that scholars and skeptics have torn the Bible apart of the centuries and they STILL cannot find evidence to disprove it. Not only the roman manuscripts acknowledge the presence of Jesus as well as the place where he was crucified.

So what then do you have: is it faith, is it proof, or is it Memorex? One definition of faith is, "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

So then, 7 days. 7 real days, or not? Literal or anecdotal? Yes, these have all been proven completely, that's why there's such great harmony among organized religions.

I have faith. Through the Bible, God's inspired word, I have evidence enough to grant me that faith based on the recount of happenings over the centuries.

Heh-heh...yeah, let's go kill the unbelievers for Jeezus...

Anyone who does anything remotely like that is not a Christian... and I can't believe you would lump everyone who claims to be a Christian with the faith-- even though their acts deny their faith.

-Kevin

Ever hear of The Crusades? How about the Inquisition?

What about the Spanish explorers who murdered thousands upon thousands of "heathens" who wouldn't bow to the priests?
What about all the knowledge and teachings that were destroyed by the same Spaniards because the knowledge didn't conform to what the priests believed/knew?

FAR too many wars have been fought over "MY God is better than YOUR God," and X-tians are right in the middle of many of them.

You are judging the religion of millions based on the irrational and irresponsible actions of those years past. The Bible specifically says "Thou shalt not kill" -- their cause was not just, it was twisted.

I'm not here to make excuses for them though. I acknowledge that they claimed to be part of the Christian faith, and to that I say: Can you not forgive? Everyone makes mistakes-- some more grave than others. But can you hold that over everyone's head forever.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's not obstinate to require this.

The hilarious thing about faith is that though every religious person claims to have it, they are CONSTANTLY scrabblng for real-world validation of their beliefs. In other words, they want to KNOW.

We are human-- of course we are going to strive to understand that which does not need explanation, nor can we ever explain. However; a person who is truly living by faith is never scrabbling for validation. Have you ever watched a debate between a Creationist and otherwise... the Creationist absolutely dismantles any and everything the other says. That is not scrabbling for validation, that is putting the word of God in blunt fashion...

-Kevin

You are watching the wrong debates. Besides, no one in their right mind even tries to argue for Creationism anymore. There hasn't been any new evidence for it since the Bible was written. The debate always devolves into them arguing against evolution. Even most religious scholars don't believe the Genesis account of creation. They just twist both the science and the religion and argue for some sort of "guided evolution". In fact, it seems the more you study the Bible, the more "metaphorical" you find it; in other words, the more excuses you have to make for it.

But entering into a debate with a Creationist is a mistake to begin with since it gives implicit credence to the erroneous idea that Creationism is on par with the scientific theory of Evolution. The intellectual debate is already won. The real fight now is for hearts and minds. That's why a Creationist can win a debate. They can never win it on intellectual grounds, but a debate is won by the person who wins over the audience, not the one that makes more sense.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Modelworks
On the whole creation, 7 days, Adam and Eve thing.
Guys you need to think like the people with the knowledge they had then would think.

Your thinking about it based on what you know now. These people didn't know the earth was round and your expecting them to say things like, well there was this big bang, and he used dna and spliced it......


If some supreme being created you and you only had the knowledge they would have had at the time before Noah, how would you describe creation and where you came from ?

I would really love to read some of your attempts at describing it.


Remember God , nor Jesus, never wrote a single word in the bible, with the exception of the ten commandments. Thats the only text directly attributed to God.

I thought the Bible was God's divine inspiration, not the creative writing of humans. Shouldn't God's word be independent of the state of human technology and culture?

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
We are human-- of course we are going to strive to understand that which does not need explanation, nor can we ever explain. However; a person who is truly living by faith is never scrabbling for validation. Have you ever watched a debate between a Creationist and otherwise... the Creationist absolutely dismantles any and everything the other says. That is not scrabbling for validation, that is putting the word of God in blunt fashion...

-Kevin

We must be watching very different debates. The usual argument is, "If you scientists can't explain it, then it's God, and God doesn't need to follow your logic, and is thus exempt from scientific proof."
It's throwing in a get-out-of-jail free card in a game of chess.

Watch well respected Christians not ones who try and make excuses for what they/we do not understand-- Ravi Zacharias for instance. One of the best speakers I have ever heard...

He uses the same tired and rebutted creationist arguments as all the others, if this is any indication.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Do you have any proof (other than anecdotal evidence from uneducated, superstitious people) that your Jesus Christ has even been here once?

Umm, yea. Its widely acknowledged by historians and roman manuscripts that Jesus was indeed here. As for his works, that is when you have to turn to faith and the Bible-- which is, in a lot of ways, even more concrete.

-Kevin

Umm...now you're falling back on the anecdotal evidence. There's nothing that PROVES the existance of "Jesus, The Son of God" in any of that, just that a man named Jesus MAY have existed.
The rest is just fairy tales...designed to control the unlearned masses...

"Live according to these rules and you can go live with the sky-fairies when you die. If you don't, you go to an unpleasant place full of pain and misery."

Why are they fairy tales? You do know that scholars and skeptics have torn the Bible apart of the centuries and they STILL cannot find evidence to disprove it. Not only the roman manuscripts acknowledge the presence of Jesus as well as the place where he was crucified.

So what then do you have: is it faith, is it proof, or is it Memorex? One definition of faith is, "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

So then, 7 days. 7 real days, or not? Literal or anecdotal? Yes, these have all been proven completely, that's why there's such great harmony among organized religions.

I have faith. Through the Bible, God's inspired word, I have evidence enough to grant me that faith based on the recount of happenings over the centuries.

Heh-heh...yeah, let's go kill the unbelievers for Jeezus...

Anyone who does anything remotely like that is not a Christian... and I can't believe you would lump everyone who claims to be a Christian with the faith-- even though their acts deny their faith.

-Kevin

Ever hear of The Crusades? How about the Inquisition?

What about the Spanish explorers who murdered thousands upon thousands of "heathens" who wouldn't bow to the priests?
What about all the knowledge and teachings that were destroyed by the same Spaniards because the knowledge didn't conform to what the priests believed/knew?

FAR too many wars have been fought over "MY God is better than YOUR God," and X-tians are right in the middle of many of them.

You are judging the religion of millions based on the irrational and irresponsible actions of those years past. The Bible specifically says "Thou shalt not kill" -- their cause was not just, it was twisted.

I'm not here to make excuses for them though. I acknowledge that they claimed to be part of the Christian faith, and to that I say: Can you not forgive? Everyone makes mistakes-- some more grave than others. But can you hold that over everyone's head forever.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's not obstinate to require this.

The hilarious thing about faith is that though every religious person claims to have it, they are CONSTANTLY scrabblng for real-world validation of their beliefs. In other words, they want to KNOW.

We are human-- of course we are going to strive to understand that which does not need explanation, nor can we ever explain. However; a person who is truly living by faith is never scrabbling for validation. Have you ever watched a debate between a Creationist and otherwise... the Creationist absolutely dismantles any and everything the other says. That is not scrabbling for validation, that is putting the word of God in blunt fashion...

-Kevin

You are watching the wrong debates. Besides, no one in their right mind even tries to argue for Creationism anymore. There hasn't been any new evidence for it since the Bible was written. The debate always devolves into them arguing against evolution. Even most religious scholars don't believe the Genesis account of creation. They just twist both the science and the religion and argue for some sort of "guided evolution". In fact, it seems the more you study the Bible, the more "metaphorical" you find it; in other words, the more excuses you have to make for it.

But entering into a debate with a Creationist is a mistake to begin with since it gives implicit credence to the erroneous idea that Creationism is on par with the scientific theory of Evolution. The intellectual debate is already won. The real fight now is for hearts and minds. That's why a Creationist can win a debate. They can never win it on intellectual grounds, but a debate is won by the person who wins over the audience, not the one that makes more sense.

Ravi Zacharias is one of 3 people asked to ever speak in a Mormon temple who was not a Mormon. His writings and apologetic speeches are on par with CS Lewis. That is the right debate.

If you watch debates with people who indeed live by faith and take from the Bible accurately, then they disassemble evolutionists views in seconds. It happens every time.

There has most definitely been evidence for it since the Bible was written. I believe there was a bone found recently from a dinosaur that was a couple thousand years old based on the place it was found in the rock.

How can you say that Creationism isn't on par with evolution. Years ago we thought that the world was flat and that was wrong. What makes a series of coincidences (And by coincidences things that have <1% chance of happening, much less simultaneously) so infallible? The answer is nothing... yet Christianity who has been around for many centuries before that, and has been ripped apart, still remains and still cannot be disproven.

-Kevin

 

[sourceninja]

He would need to grow hair on my head.

 

[Turin39789]

im going to go poop