So, looks like the ps3 is completely hacked.

[chalmers]

That would be sweet. The only reason I have an Xbox hooked up is for XBMC.

It's the breast, that's for sure. I hated the 360's version and the lack of any appropriate workarounds.

 

[RavenSEAL]

Laugh all you want, just wait and see, they'll be in court before you know it.

 

[chalmers]

Laugh all you want, just wait and see, they'll be in court before you know it.

3101 posts: sense not found.

 

[RavenSEAL]

3101 posts: sense not found.

 

[purbeast0]

Has RavenSeal ever said anything intelligent on this forum?

nope.

 

[Tristicus]

I'm okay with the content in this thread....but did you really say the 360 was secure?

Ro fucking fl.


Thing is, they are so cocky about it, people have been trying the system since it released. The only REAL try was Geo, and he managed to get somewhere because he is a smart guy. Scared Sony enough to get rid of OtherOS, ironically which these people are saying was the only deterrent. Apparently, Sony's tech was dumb enough to stump people trying to crack it.

 

[EightySix Four]

One of the guys who was involved in the crack has been chatting over on slashdot about it. Pretty interesting guy, and he talked about how the time to completion of the hack was in reality 9 months or so.

The "epic" part really came about due to the completely inexcusable ECDSA signature screwup. We were left speechless by that one. However, as a whole, the entire PS3 architecture is terrible. Especially after breaking it open and properly analyzing it and finding a ton of screwups (many critical), there is absolutely no doubt in our mind that the sole reason why the PS3 lasted this far is because OtherOS kept all the competent people happy enough not to try to break into the system (that, and maybe hype around their hypervisor and isolated SPE security, both of which turned out to be terribly bad). If you watch the talk you'll actually see that we make this point clear and address the time-to-hack of the PS3. Given our experience and what we've learned from people who work on console hacks, almost nobody tried until OtherOS was removed, so the only valid measurement for "time to hack", as a strength-of-security measure, is the time since OtherOS was removed (9-12 months or so).

OtherOS was Sony's single best security feature.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

One of the guys who was involved in the crack has been chatting over on slashdot about it. Pretty interesting guy, and he talked about how the time to completion of the hack was in reality 9 months or so.

Yeah, that just seems like an assertion..

Lets see what happened RIGHT before other OS was removed, oh wait PS3 jailbreak was released.

So lets see what may have supercharged the PS3 hacking scene, the fact that it was shown that the PS3 could be hacked and be made to play pirated games, or when Sony removed a feature no one used.

He's basically trying to shift blame to OtherOS by taking advantage of a particular time frame and making Sony seem like THEY were the reason that this hack was produced and not them.

 

[EightySix Four]

Yeah, that just seems like an assertion..

Lets see what happened RIGHT before other OS was removed, oh wait PS3 jailbreak was released.

So lets see what may have supercharged the PS3 hacking scene, the fact that it was shown that the PS3 could be hacked and be made to play pirated games, or when Sony removed a feature no one used.

He's basically trying to shift blame to OtherOS by taking advantage of a particular time frame and making Sony seem like THEY were the reason that this hack was produced and not them.

No, geohot released his shitty hardware hack, freaking out Sony. That was by no means a useful hack for >95% of the population. Sony then removed Other OS, and the people with the skills came out of the woodwork.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

No, geohot released his shitty hardware hack, freaking out Sony. That was by no means a useful hack for >95% of the population. Sony then removed Other OS, and the people with the skills came out of the woodwork.

Oh yeah, got my events mixed up.

Or it could have been the Geohot hardware hack. I mean, as soon as that happened, it was blood in the water for the sharks to go after. NOT the other OS. Hackers would've tried regardless of OtherOS removal because Geohot showed that there were kinks.

 

[EightySix Four]

Oh yeah, got my events mixed up.

Or it could have been the Geohot hardware hack. I mean, as soon as that happened, it was blood in the water for the sharks to go after. NOT the other OS. Hackers would've tried regardless of OtherOS removal because Geohot showed that there were kinks.

Geohot's hack was not a kink in the security like these guys were, geohot's hack was a really cruddy method of glitching his way out of the hypervisor by purposely causing errors in the PS3's memory.

The USB plug hack was actually quite brilliant and elegant, but compared to this was short sighted in that it never really broke down the PS3's security, it was finding a bug to exploit. That bug was easily fixed. This is a real breakdown of the PS3's security, and is virtually unfixable.

 

[Ross Ridge]

Hmmm... sounds like it may work a little TOO well. I'm normally in favor of a more open system, but it definitely sounds like life will be made hard by cheaters. And since it's not a premium subscription service, I don't think it'll be possible to ban all the cheaters. They'll just keep creating free accounts.

Well they'd ban hacked consoles, not accounts. Although this hack may also mean that it'll become possible to change the console's unique id.

 

[magomago]

mmm mixed feelings.

I like the idea of people playing with their hardware as they want want to without restrictions.

I dislike the idea that many people are going to pirate and not pay for their games. Why? I save up my money to buy games and carefully decide what I do want and don't want. I may not buy a game at launch (i rarely do) because I don't want to, it is never because I don't have the money.

When a noob comes in, takes advantage of these hacks and starts playing everything under the sun its annoying because then i wonder why the fuck i am getting the raw deal. It is kind of like the situation where I'm waiting in line for an immigration visa (buying a game), and people get to go ahead of me because they broke the law and get straight up citizenship (free game, potential hacks). Of course i'm hesitant to use this as a deep analogy too much because I don't necessarily want to accept the choices that are put in front of me, especially if i don't like the choices (slight tangent). Why pick between getting beat up or having all your money stolen? If I'm given two unreasonable choices, or an unreasonable path, then I'll have none of it.
However, but i feel that it is extremely reasonable to pay money for the a game where people clearly put in a lot of work, especially if I'm going to enjoy that work. I may disagree as to how much I"m willing to pay (hence why ill look for deals or sales), but I respect the work enough knowing that making a game is a pretty crazy endeavor - you have the actual developers making the game, the project managers leading it, the financial guys crunching numbers, the marketing guys spending money to advertise for it everywhere.... the amount of entertainment I'd get out of a game is far more than the amount I'll pay to watch a 1.5-2 hour hollywood movie at the ticket prices that we pay these days.
and then the pirates come in with a total lack of respect and start playing everything under the sun without paying as they disregard an extremely reasonable proposition ($$ for entertainment).

 

[NikolaeVarius]

mmm mixed feelings.

I like the idea of people playing with their hardware as they want want to without restrictions.

I dislike the idea that many people are going to pirate and not pay for their games. Why? I save up my money to buy games and carefully decide what I do want and don't want. I may not buy a game at launch (i rarely do) because I don't want to, it is never because I don't have the money.

When a noob comes in, takes advantage of these hacks and starts playing everything under the sun its annoying because then i wonder why the fuck i am getting the raw deal. It is kind of like the situation where I'm waiting in line for an immigration visa (buying a game), and people get to go ahead of me because they broke the law and get straight up citizenship (free game, potential hacks). Of course i'm hesitant to use this as a deep analogy too much because I don't necessarily want to accept the choices that are put in front of me, especially if i don't like the choices (slight tangent). Why pick between getting beat up or having all your money stolen? If I'm given two unreasonable choices, or an unreasonable path, then I'll have none of it.
However, but i feel that it is extremely reasonable to pay money for the a game where people clearly put in a lot of work, especially if I'm going to enjoy that work. I may disagree as to how much I"m willing to pay (hence why ill look for deals or sales), but I respect the work enough knowing that making a game is a pretty crazy endeavor - you have the actual developers making the game, the project managers leading it, the financial guys crunching numbers, the marketing guys spending money to advertise for it everywhere.... the amount of entertainment I'd get out of a game is far more than the amount I'll pay to watch a 1.5-2 hour hollywood movie at the ticket prices that we pay these days.
and then the pirates come in with a total lack of respect and start playing everything under the sun without paying as they disregard an extremely reasonable proposition ($$ for entertainment).

For me its mostly this. I have tons of friends who are fledgling programmers, game design majors, etc etc, and I've really developed an appreciation for how hard they work on their things, and I've moved away from piracy to legitimacy because I really think the ones who make their products have every right to attempt to protect their IP. When shit like this gets released that basically says, "Screw you, we can do any shit we want and 99% of that is pirating games" then I get up in arms about it

Why can't these damn hackers just be like "We'll release the ability to do homebrew, but not play pirated games" And yes, there is the argument of homebrew and shit, but everyone KNOWS that that's not the main draw, its the piracy that is the draw.

So yeah, you'll see me decrying stuff like this and not exactly embracing the hacking community because all this leads to is more and more piracy, and I just cannot support it.

 

[EightySix Four]

For me its mostly this. I have tons of friends who are fledgling programmers, game design majors, etc etc, and I've really developed an appreciation for how hard they work on their things, and I've moved away from piracy to legitimacy because I really think the ones who make their products have every right to attempt to protect their IP. When shit like this gets released that basically says, "Screw you, we can do any shit we want and 99% of that is pirating games" then I get up in arms about it

Why can't these damn hackers just be like "We'll release the ability to do homebrew, but not play pirated games" And yes, there is the argument of homebrew and shit, but everyone KNOWS that that's not the main draw, its the piracy that is the draw.

So yeah, you'll see me decrying stuff like this and not exactly embracing the hacking community because all this leads to is more and more piracy, and I just cannot support it.

There is little to no methods which hackers can use to allow homebrew and not piracy. The way the major players treat homebrew forces the hackers hands if they want to use the console in more than the provided ways.

It almost makes sense to have an Xbox360 app store, which gives people signed applications built with the normal tool kits, but they have to go through MS's verification process first so they don't use it as a pirate tool. It will still eventually be hacked, but far less people will be working to do so.

 

[RavenSEAL]

Homebrew=piracy, that's the whole point of this.

 

[magomago]

Homebrew=piracy, that's the whole point of this.

Homebrew is NOT piracy, PERIOD.

But don't use homebrew as the main fighting cause, when the ulterior motives are truly about piracy.



Perhaps a marketplace for indie devs on the ps3/360 should be considered as the other poster said.

A cheaper dev kit that allows access to the dev kit (but perhaps only allowing access to 50-60% of the console power), and a very reasonable licensing terms (games can be for free, or games can be charged up to 4 dollars with 70% revenue going to the developer...perhaps this is the real way to seperate between official and homebrew support - the liscense under which one allows games to be priced as they feel like it, and the other which restricts the price of the game severely, and requires that it is only sold on the marketplace). Honestly I have no idea as to how the terms should be setup, nor do i pretend I should know, but it sounds like its the way to go.

Atleast then the home brew argument is completely legitimized and breaking it apart from the piracy argument.

 

[Ross Ridge]

There is little to no methods which hackers can use to allow homebrew and not piracy. The way the major players treat homebrew forces the hackers hands if they want to use the console in more than the provided ways.

Well, they could keep the keys a secret and just restore Other OS support with all the restrictions that had and people would be able to run unsigned code again, but not run pirated games. The problem with that idea though is if this group was able to hack the keys then someone else could as well.

In the end I don't think it matters much. Both in this generation and last, video game sales for the various consoles have been roughly in the same order as how easy it is to pirate games on the console. Last generation the Xbox and PlayStation 2 consoles were the easiest console to pirate games on and the GameCube was the hardest. Up until now the Wii has been by far both the easiest console to run pirated games, and the platform that sold the most games. You can make similar comparision with the Nintendo DS and the Sony PSP. While I doubt this will help PS3 software sales, it not necessarily the case that it'll end up hurting them much either.

I don't think many people who actually buy games today will suddenly become massive pirates if this hack actually proves to be real and ends up throwing the door wide open for piracy. People playing pirated games on their Wiis, Xbox 360s and PCs will flock to the PS3, and while some non-pirate PS3 owners will become pirates, most of them will still end buying the same games they would've anyways.

I think the biggest problem that this will cause is the one gorcorps mentioned. Rampant cheating. Existing games are pretty much defenceless against this, and new ones will have their work cut for them to try to detect and punish cheaters.

There might also be some benefits to this beyond the ability to run homebrew software. Sony might ease their approval process and restriction on games. Games like Oblivion could be allowed to have user generated content, and MMORPGs could provide their own updates directly without needing Sony's approval. Small independent game developers could develop games cheaply as homebrew without buying an expensive development kit, and then progress to official PS3 development once they've developed skills and confidence.

In other words, along with the one big disavantage of becoming a wide-open platform like the PC, it's possible the PS3 might also get some the PC's advantages. Unfortunately, I doubt Sony is that smart.

 

[Narmer]

Homebrew is NOT piracy, PERIOD.

But don't use homebrew as the main fighting cause, when the ulterior motives are truly about piracy.



Perhaps a marketplace for indie devs on the ps3/360 should be considered as the other poster said.

A cheaper dev kit that allows access to the dev kit (but perhaps only allowing access to 50-60% of the console power), and a very reasonable licensing terms (games can be for free, or games can be charged up to 4 dollars with 70% revenue going to the developer...perhaps this is the real way to seperate between official and homebrew support - the liscense under which one allows games to be priced as they feel like it, and the other which restricts the price of the game severely, and requires that it is only sold on the marketplace). Honestly I have no idea as to how the terms should be setup, nor do i pretend I should know, but it sounds like its the way to go.

Atleast then the home brew argument is completely legitimized and breaking it apart from the piracy argument.

As others have said, indie developers already had the online store. Let's face it, people will never stop making excuses to pirate stuff.

 

[Sadaiyappan]

I can afford games so I pay for them. I can see how this will catch on among poor people making the hardware sell out though.

 

[Sadaiyappan]

And it becomes more ridiculous now that the Sony makes money on each PS3.

 

[BD2003]

As others have said, indie developers already had the online store. Let's face it, people will never stop making excuses to pirate stuff.

It's not the same. Something like XBMC would never be allowed on any of the indie stores, despite how good it is, because it takes away some of their ability to control how they serve you content. They'd also never allow pc style game modding because that might take the place of their premium add on content.

Theres a ton of ways in which an open system benefits end users. Piracy is a huge draw for many but it's not the only reason you'd want an open system.

Either way I'm not buying the BS that they did it solely to restore otherOS. That's just to make their motives seem benevolent, when it's really just about the prestige. And the main reason common folk care is piracy. I'm sure they'd do it just to do it anyway, that's how these things go, but without the piracy this wouldn't be big news people are talking about.

There's really no simple answer as to how or what they could have done to prevent this. They're always walking a fine line. Leaving the system wide open from the start obviously isn't the answer. Even if a rather stupid mistake caused this downfall, they did pretty well protecting it up until this point.

 

[Tristicus]

I can afford games so I pay for them. I can see how this will catch on among poor people making the hardware sell out though.

So can I. I'll be spending $80 in Jan, then $140 in Feb on two games alone. Plus $100 if you count the PS Move I will be buying between now and Feb, and the gun attachment for KZ2.

What I don't pay for are games that I don't know if I will like, and there are no demo for. I call it try before you buy. And I've gladly done it, like with Mass Effect.

 

[Narmer]

It's not the same. Something like XBMC would never be allowed on any of the indie stores, despite how good it is, because it takes away some of their ability to control how they serve you content. They'd also never allow pc style game modding because that might take the place of their premium add on content.

Theres a ton of ways in which an open system benefits end users. Piracy is a huge draw for many but it's not the only reason you'd want an open system.

Either way I'm not buying the BS that they did it solely to restore otherOS. That's just to make their motives seem benevolent, when it's really just about the prestige. And the main reason common folk care is piracy. I'm sure they'd do it just to do it anyway, that's how these things go, but without the piracy this wouldn't be big news people are talking about.

There's really no simple answer as to how or what they could have done to prevent this. They're always walking a fine line. Leaving the system wide open from the start obviously isn't the answer. Even if a rather stupid mistake caused this downfall, they did pretty well protecting it up until this point.

I don't think talking about PC gaming is appropriate considering what pirates have done to that platform. Also, I think the cost-benefit of something like XMBC really isn't debatable considering what will happen to those same indie developers on a platform that has been heavily compromised.

 

[BD2003]

I don't think talking about PC gaming is appropriate considering what pirates have done to that platform. Also, I think the cost-benefit of something like XMBC really isn't debatable considering what will happen to those same indie developers on a platform that has been heavily compromised.

Right. What I'm getting at is that there's no good solution here. They make the system open, and they invite the unsavory element in. They close it up, and they stifle creativity to some degree.

It's not a black and white issue. There are gains and losses in each case, different people benefit from each scenario in different ways.

Honestly, the secure but broken situation the ps3 is in right now works quite well for me. Im looking forward to homebrew, looking forward to not having to swap my own discs, looking forward to faster load times. Who knows what kind of interesting, non Sony approved software can come of this? Yet with the millions of consoles already sold and the hassle and risk of piracy the ps3 will still be a very viable platform for the corporate world to make money off of. It's certainly a better situation than the clusterfuck of drm and piracy that the pc is. This way I can have my cake and eat it too.