So, looks like the ps3 is completely hacked.

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Thraxen

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2001
4,683
1
81
There was absolutely no point to remove it from the standpoint we see NOW, but there was little to no point in keeping it either besides to please the 100 people that used it a little bit.

Many of us predicted this would happen when they removed it. IMO, this outcome was pretty obvious. Not necessarily something as bad as their private keys being leaked, but that a hack of some sort would be the result. And we've seen two major hacks since it was removed. First it was the USB dongle and then it was the signing keys being calculated. I'm in no way surprised.
 

Saint Nick

Lifer
Jan 21, 2005
17,722
6
81
I see you are all taking this as seriously as that Fatal1ty guy up there ^ with his new mobo...lol
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,177
5,641
146
Many of us predicted this would happen when they removed it. IMO, this outcome was pretty obvious. Not necessarily something as bad as their private keys being leaked, but that a hack of some sort would be the result. And we've seen two major hacks since it was removed. First it was the USB dongle and then it was the signing keys being calculated. I'm in no way surprised.

Eh, this stuff was going to happen regardless of Sony removing the Install Other OS option.

Fact is, the Linux install was crap anyways, so if people really wanted to make use of the PS3 for Linux they would have to do this eventually.

And, I know people are pulling numbers out of their ass, but its more like 0.001% bought a PS3 for that feature. The people that were interested or even aware of it were also very likely to know that it was not much of a feature (and that Sony certainly would not be doing any real support or development of it). I'd be willing to bet more people bought it assuming it'd end up like the PSP, get hacked and they'd be able to do whatever.
 

fatpat268

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2006
5,853
0
71
uh, yes, ps3 WAS advertised as a device that ran linux.

exactly. Sony more or less attempted to get linux on the PS2 even back in 2002 if you had the hard drive.

While the vast majority who owned a ps3 didn't know or care about it, there were still a lot of people who did.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
exactly. Sony more or less attempted to get linux on the PS2 even back in 2002 if you had the hard drive.

While the vast majority who owned a ps3 didn't know or care about it, there were still a lot of people who did.
And just because users aren't using it now doesn't mean they won't in the future.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,218
661
136
Stupid question.. where did Sony advertise that you could install linux? I remember hearing about via forums and word of mouth, but don't recall any ads that hyped that fact
 

extra

Golden Member
Dec 18, 1999
1,947
7
81
Awwww poor sony *fake tears*. I'm sure they will go under from all the horrible rampant piracy! Yeah...no. /don't care, don't have any consoles, but it's always amusing whenever someone releases something and thinks it's unhackable.
 

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
0
Advertising for Other OS doesn't even matter. The point is that you are NOT supposed to remove functionality from your product. Only ADD functionality or improve the quality of functionality.

Removing functionality with an update is bad practice, on question about it.

Despite that, I don't think anything makes this hacking thing excusable.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
exactly. Sony more or less attempted to get linux on the PS2 even back in 2002 if you had the hard drive.

While the vast majority who owned a ps3 didn't know or care about it, there were still a lot of people who did.

lolol....a lot? i'm willing to bet eleventybillion dollars that no more a 2 thousand or so out of the install basis of XX million were actually using OtherOS on a regular basis.
Am I justifying Sony's removal of it? Nope, not really, and that isn' my point here.
But am I challenging the notion that 'a lot of people' cared about it....yup. We need to be careful before we mix perceived internet rage with actual number of users
 

fatpat268

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2006
5,853
0
71
lolol....a lot? i'm willing to bet eleventybillion dollars that no more a 2 thousand or so out of the install basis of XX million were actually using OtherOS on a regular basis.
Am I justifying Sony's removal of it? Nope, not really, and that isn' my point here.
But am I challenging the notion that 'a lot of people' cared about it....yup. We need to be careful before we mix perceived internet rage with actual number of users

You don't know the numbers any more than I do.

Even if only 0.1% cared about it, it's still a decent sized number.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
You don't know the numbers any more than I do.

Even if only 0.1% cared about it, it's still a decent sized number.

Yup you are right sir, I don't know the numbers any more than you do. However, I can use judgement and say "given the US alone, with has an install base of ~ 20 million, truly have 20,000 users actively developing with linux?"

You are right sir, I don't know the numbers anymore than you, so I don't see why your guess is any more valid than mine...


IMO Sony's issue wasn't that they remove something that so few cared about, it was that they removed something that extremely intelligent users cared about ~ for all I could have cared, there could only be a worldwide network of 500 people using this thing on a day to day basis....but if even 10% happen to be elite hackers or friends of elite hackers, then you need to be very careful when pissing them off.
 

RavenSEAL

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2010
8,670
3
0
Interesting read from EuroGamer... Wonder if Sony actually has such capabilities.

By the way, where is the pack that was throwing rocks at me claiming that Sony couldn't take legal action? LMAO.

With the news that infamous iPhone hacker George Hotz has enabled homebrew via a custom firmware patch, speculation is now moving on to what Sony will do to stop unauthorised code running on the PlayStation Network. What exactly can the platform holder monitor from your machine and what steps can Sony take in banning you from the PlayStation Network?

First of all there's an important distinction in the unofficial hacker's "code of conduct" to be aware of: these guys believe that once you buy a machine, you own it and you have the right to run your own programs on it, even if the inevitable consequence of this (by their own admission) is that piracy becomes possible on what was previously a "backup"-proof system. However, hackers are equally adamant that the PlayStation Network, or Xbox Live for that matter, is a service that users subscribe to and for which they have no ownership rights at all. In short, if you do decide to run your own code on a system connected to such a service, you're on your own and should be prepared for the consequences.
Thus far, educated estimates put the amount of Xbox Live bans at well over one million consoles, accounting mostly for users who modified their DVD drive firmwares to run games burned onto DVD. However, Sony has been remarkably restrained in its response to the Jailbreak even though PSN has been vulnerable for some weeks over the last few months. Does the company have the tools to track Jailbroken consoles and if so, why haven't we seen the banhammer fall already?

First up, what does Sony know about what's going on with your console? It is true that when the PS3 boots up - whether you have a PSN account or now - the machine itself communicates with a string of Sony servers, as recently posted on NeoGAF, and a log of applications run on the system is almost certainly transmitted. Similarly, the game you're running at any given point also shows up on your PSN profile, and the chances are that if you run a game from within a "backup manager", then the manager - not the game - will be displayed attached to your PSN account.

According to the terms and conditions of the PlayStation Network, this effectively makes you fair game for a PSN ban of which many variations exist - a timed suspension or even a lifelong ban. The amount of access Sony has to your machine is greater than you probably suspect: the company even has the means to irrevocably disable your console should it so wish, and if that happens, it will remain non-functional whether you're online or offline.

However, despite the options Sony has available, to date there have been no ban waves that we've been aware of, despite Jailbroken consoles being easily detectable. Sony's approach has been very responsible - issuing security updates via new firmwares that automatically lock Jailbreakers out of the PlayStation Network as opposed to issuing outright bans. Sony effectively offers PS3 jailbreakers the opportunity to "go legit" in order to preserve their PSN access.

It was the right solution for its time: a system update is inconvenient for the end-user but for Sony it would be far more of an issue in dealing with the unwelcome publicity of a ban wave. Just the logistics of the customer relations element also makes this the most reasonable approach: why deal with thousands of emails, requests for info from the press and - yes - potentially banning a small amount of innocent users when a new firmware prevents any of this from happening?

Microsoft went the nuclear option with its various ban waves of course, but there is a difference between modifying DVD firmware and running a PS3 jailbreak: opening up your 360, re-flashing the drive and reassembling the machine demonstrates a singular purpose in running burned games. With the USB jailbreaks, all machines were vulnerable and any one could run the dongle on any machine whether they owned it or not. Sony may well have a list of "suspect" consoles, but arbitrarily suspending PSN access without a proof of sustained usage would be an over-reaction. As a knock-on effect, it would obviously stop these people spending money in the PlayStation Store. Updating new firmware and locking out the compromised systems while offering offenders the chance to "go legit" has clearly been the platform holder's MO thus far.

In the short term, expect to see Sony do exactly the same thing. Firmwares 3.42 and 3.5 worked in locking out Jailbroken consoles with the minimum of fuss. Hacks to get compromised consoles onto PSN were neutralised relatively quickly and you can expect the current access Jailbreakers have to PSN with Geohot's hacked software to be revoked imminently with a new system update.

In future firmwares, expect internal checks to be carried out during run-time and on boot to ensure the integrity of GameOS - these are trivial for Sony to code, invisible to the legitimate end-user and much more difficult to reverse-engineer. However, the long term challenge facing the platform holder is a lot stiffer now - the collapse of the security set-up means that any kind of code can be installed on any PS3.

Where Sony is going to face real difficulties is in preventing determined PSN cheaters from adjusting and patching their games. The latest hack isn't just about patching GameOS any more: jailbreakers can change map data, roll back patches and even adjust the game code and re-encrypt it to look like an official update. Determined cheaters could probably use DNS hacks to install suspect code on their console even without the requirement of a custom firmware in the first place. Over and above this, leaving GameOS to the mercies of the hackers could see them reverse-engineer the ways in which PSN games are purchased and activated on the console, opening up another wave of piracy Sony would rather not have to deal with.

The chances are that threats like this are just too big to ignore, and it's surely just a matter of time before Sony's current "soft touch" approach to dealing with Jailbroken PS3s on PSN becomes a thing of the past. If the situation escalates, expect that ban hammer to hit without warning: at the end of the day, running unapproved homebrew code of any description while connected to the PlayStation Network is just a really bad idea...
 

EightySix Four

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2004
5,121
49
91
Interesting read from EuroGamer... Wonder if Sony actually has such capabilities.

By the way, where is the pack that was throwing rocks at me claiming that Sony couldn't take legal action? LMAO.

When you can disable the checks, it doesn't matter

Sony can get litigious, they just can't accomplish anything.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Interesting read from EuroGamer... Wonder if Sony actually has such capabilities.

By the way, where is the pack that was throwing rocks at me claiming that Sony couldn't take legal action? LMAO.

They can take legal action but there is no guarantee of success. The DMCA was updated after Hotz jailbreaked the iPhone to say that owners could hack closed systems. The catch is that the language specifically mentioned mobile phones. However, Hotz and his lawyer are going to contend that if the law applies to a closed system like a mobile phone then it should also apply to a closed system like the PS3.

In theory, Sony could make things worse for themselves, Nintendo and Microsoft by making it legal to jailbreak consoles if the court rules in favor of Hotz.
 

herkulease

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2001
3,923
0
0
How could a machine communicate without a PSN account...I assume they are meaning if it is still connected with internet?

yeah that's what I think. It calls home regardless. the solution is simple. disconnect your ps3 from the internet permanently.
 

reallyscrued

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2004
2,617
5
81
'Bout time.

I suspect all future consoles will be hackable, one way or another. It's not like the days of cartridge based consoles; everything from now on will have USB ports or future equivalent, games will be stored on media that can interact with PCs, and all future hardware is going to have an RJ-45 jack SOMEWHERE right? How can you possibly secure such a complex system 100&#37; securely?

But yeah, about damn time. Once piracy goes rampant on the home console front (and it will, each generation of consumers are just becoming technically more inclined, 13 year olds these days know a lot more about computers than you may think.), PC game devs will have no grounds to say they want to develop for consoles because of all the "lost sales" they would endure developing for the PC. Hopefully by then the playing field will be leveled and we'll start seeing some more PC exclusives.

Maybe even the anti-piracy will die down by then? Maybe no more DRM, because they'll realize it will just get cracked? Maybe they'll stop game budgets before they balloon into the hundred of millions of dollars from advertising and voice actors? Or am I dreaming?

Seriously, why the hell do games cost as much as movies to make? And even then, why do they cost upwards of 70 dollars when a Blu-Ray is 30 bucks?

Godamnit, this turned into a rant. Time to go to bed.

Oh yeah, fuck Sony. Fuck the hackers too....but fuck Sony harder.
 

GiN

Member
Dec 13, 2007
55
0
0
Interesting read from EuroGamer... Wonder if Sony actually has such capabilities.

By the way, where is the pack that was throwing rocks at me claiming that Sony couldn't take legal action? LMAO.


Didn't Eurogamer also post an article indicating that piracy on the PS3 could be worst than the PSP? If that's the case, then ouch. I don't believe Sony can do anything if people never connect their PS3s online.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
76
They can take legal action but there is no guarantee of success. The DMCA was updated after Hotz jailbreaked the iPhone to say that owners could hack closed systems. The catch is that the language specifically mentioned mobile phones. However, Hotz and his lawyer are going to contend that if the law applies to a closed system like a mobile phone then it should also apply to a closed system like the PS3.

In theory, Sony could make things worse for themselves, Nintendo and Microsoft by making it legal to jailbreak consoles if the court rules in favor of Hotz.

Yeah, and the exact same logic that says jailbreaking your phone is legal is excellent legal precedent. The more you read, the less legal footing Sony seems to have. Honestly I believe this is more of a song and dance to appease shareholders that they tried to do at least something. Theyre not idiots, they know it's hacked for good. I wonder how far they'll take it, but there is literally nothing to gain here. Even if they win, they've still lost.
 

ibex333

Diamond Member
Mar 26, 2005
4,092
123
106
I wouldnt really call the PS3 hacked just yet... not untill they fix the blu-ray issue. If you hack your PHAT PS3 now, you will kill your blu-ray. Possibly permanatly. slim models dont seem to be affected. at lwast for the most part.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
LOL... the hack is already being mirrored by a Computer Science professor at Carnegie Mellon as a big F U to Sony.
 

reallyscrued

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2004
2,617
5
81
not sure if serious...

Kinda am, kinda not. I understand movies rake in most of their revenue from ticket sales, but call me crazy, I still think $50 American is a large premium to pay for a virtual adventure, no matter how deep and developed it is.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
Advertising for Other OS doesn't even matter. The point is that you are NOT supposed to remove functionality from your product. Only ADD functionality or improve the quality of functionality.

Removing functionality with an update is bad practice, on question about it.

Despite that, I don't think anything makes this hacking thing excusable.


Actually the precedent was already set by GeoHot's previous legal battle with Apple, which lead to the US making it a law that it was LEGAL to jailbreak/hack your iPhone.

Also, while I'm sure someone will find a way to pirate and ruin it, GeoHot specifically stated in his interview on G4 that he specifically made this hack to not run pirated software. Sony's claims are baseless and, once more, their is already a legal precedent put forth that shows that unlocking functionality on your hardware is legal and acceptable.

This should be a slam dunk case.
 
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