So much for "8 cores is more future proof!"

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,979
126

I remember back in the days of Piledriver/Bulldozer certain people on this forum kept telling us "it's a future-proof design and will scale better than Intel when games become more multi-threaded!"

Yeah right. Even basic multi-tasking is much worse than the Intel 4770 part.

I said back then these AMD CPUs were lethargic furnace monstrosities, and I was right.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136

I remember back in the days of Piledriver/Bulldozer certain people on this forum kept telling us "it's a future-proof design and will scale better than Intel when games become more multi-threaded!"

Yeah right. Even basic multi-tasking is much worse than the Intel 4770 part.

I said back then these AMD CPUs were lethargic furnace monstrosities, and I was right.

4770 was released years after the 8350.

Here the 1800X review with a 8370, notice the MT score in anything that is not biaised like Euler 3D wich was explicitely using an unoptimised code path for AMD, or the first version of 3DPM wich was dramatically unoptomised as well.

At the time of its launch a 2500K was considered a better CPU for games, look where it ended in 2017...

 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,979
126
4770 was released years after the 8350.
It was released in the future. Which is when we were told Bulldozer/Piledriver was going "win" because it was "future-proofed for games". Yet the 4-core 4770 absolutely destroys it in modern DX12 multi-threaded games while using far less power.

And if you watch the video, 8350 had problems with even basic user multi-tasking.

Here the 1800X review with a 8370, notice the MT score in anything that is not biaised like Euler 3D wich was explicitely using an unoptimised code path for AMD, or the first version of 3DPM wich was dramatically unoptomised as well.
We're talking about games, not synthetic multi-threaded benchmarks...

At the time of its launch a 2500K was considered a better CPU for games, look where it ended in 2017...
2500K also ended up being faster for games and not a hideous furnace while doing so. So it won on both counts.
 
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yuri69

Senior member
Jul 16, 2013
437
717
136
4770 was released years after the 8350.
Sure...

FX-8350 - Oct 2012
4770 - Jun 2013
At the time of its launch a 2500K was considered a better CPU for games, look where it ended in 2017...

In that test the 2600K (non-OC!) is still 10% faster than the 220W FX-9590...
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
Sure...

FX-8350 - Oct 2012
4770 - Jun 2013

In that test the 2600K (non-OC!) is still 10% faster than the 220W FX-9590...

It is not, look better, 8370 is faster in MT than the 2600K and is not far in games, and this was in 2017 when few games were MThreaded.

In the CPU perf chart Computerbase average include ST scores of Cinebench and 3DPM, wich are irrelevant for a comparison since renderings Fi are not done in ST.

3DPM at the time was hugely unoptimised for AMD uarch, not counting that Euler 3D was officialy said as being purposely unoptimised for AMD.
 
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Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
2500K also ended up being faster for games and not a hideous furnace while doing so. So it won on both counts.

FX8350/8370 was using 105W in Cinebench and quite less in games, so what furnace are you talking about..?.
You re just rehashing urban legends that were spread at the time by some people in this forum, among others a notorious member who did a fake test of the 8350 where he likely used a 8320 that he overvolted for the purpose.

As for game perfs here the 720p/1080p charts, the 8370, wich is equivalent to a 8350, is 10-11% faster than the 2500K :

 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,873
1,527
136
I dont see much point of comparing these cpus today. The FX x1xx should be compared to SB and FX x3xxx to Ivy, but doing that today is pointless, not to mention the security patches hit real hard on 2nd and 3rd gen Intel CPU.

The reality is, when the FX8100 was launched, i went on to buy an I5-2500K worked for me perfectly until the day i replaced it for a Ryzen 7 1700, i used it for 6 years, and if i were to go back in time i would buy the 2600K instead to avoid being an AM4 early adopter.

What is the point of comparing today?
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,979
126
FX8350/8370 was using 105W in Cinebench and quite less in games, so what furnace are you talking about..?
Are you incapable of watching the video linked in the OP? Horizon Zero Dawn total system power consumption: 198W Intel vs 282W AMD.

You re just rehashing urban legends that were spread at the time by some people in this forum, among others a notorious member who did a fake test of the 8350 where he likely used a 8320 that he overvolted for the purpose.
It's everyone else's fault except AMD's, amirite?

As for game perfs here the 720p/1080p charts, the 8370, wich is equivalent to a 8350, is 10-11% faster than the 2500K :
Wrong again.


 

Thunder 57

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2007
2,814
4,103
136

I remember back in the days of Piledriver/Bulldozer certain people on this forum kept telling us "it's a future-proof design and will scale better than Intel when games become more multi-threaded!"

Yeah right. Even basic multi-tasking is much worse than the Intel 4770 part.

I said back then these AMD CPUs were lethargic furnace monstrosities, and I was right.
Bulldozer was bad. Do you want to win a cookie? BTW, IIRC it won out against 4C/4T Intel chips in games like BF1. Not that I owned one to prove it. That was a 3570k part however.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
Are you incapable of watching the video linked in the OP? Horizon Zero Dawn total system power consumption: 198W Intel vs 282W AMD.


It's everyone else's fault except AMD's, amirite?


Wrong again.



I prefer to stick with Computerbase results, HWUB has not consistent numbers, he s even at odd with other people who did test the 8350 and they say that something is wrong with HWUB numbers...

And the guy is right, Computerbase use 15 games and in Tomb Raider FI the 8370 is as fast as a 2500K while at HWUB the latter is vastly faster, so obviously there s a flaw in their set up..


 
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Reactions: Ranulf

SarahKerrigan

Senior member
Oct 12, 2014
602
1,467
136
The fact that senior AMD execs publicly called BD an "unmitigated failure" says all that needs to be said about it, IMO.

Pity, though. I always thought the BD uarch was kinda cool. Just had too many glass jaws (performance of cache hierarchy being a big one) to be competitive.
 

carrotmania

Member
Oct 3, 2020
74
199
76
The story isn't that cut and dry though, because it's not like the companies were anywhere near equal at the time. Remember that this was nearly a full decade after Intel decimated the CPU landscape with their anti-competative malpractices, which they were eventually fined BILLIONS for. AMDs meagre RnD budget was also spilt into the GPU division.

While I'm not saying AMD didn't mess up, Intel "got lucky" with Core 2, especially as it was "easy" for them to bring a quad core version to market quickly, where I think AMD had been aiming to (literally) 1-up the standard Duo chip, with its 3 core Phenom chip.

That miss step was the last, er, step... for AMD. With all their enterprise business stolen by Intel, and now end customers wary, they had to do "make or break"... on a budget. They unfortunately listened to super enthusiasts like me, moar cores, bigger is better... on a budget. Bulldozer is NOT an 8 core chip. Its shared resources problems means it acts like a 4 core with some double issue type stuff. Which i presume COULD have made a difference if developers had targeted it, but Intel was firmly market leader at that point in both customers and developers eyes, and they stalled after 2xxx line. 5-6 generations of 4 cores, with few new features.

Developers kept developing for 4 or less cores, definitely not using Bulldozers resources correctly, and as I understand it, most of the big boys like Unreal engine actually use an Intel developed compiler; AMD were never gonna beat that.

But AMD thankfully did have a last LAST step, and made a 4 core that acted like intel's. Only they could now easily add another, and another, and another...

So, sure, CPU enthusiasts who quickly grew annoyed with Intels tactics (that are still in use, disgustingly), were hopeful that if we shouted loudly enough about AMD during the dark years, that developers would take note and engineer something that would use all the resources given.

Did that work out? No. Developers still developed according to the "old ways", which is why the "8" core of a financially crippled company never stood a chance against the arrogance of their competitor.

Did we do enough? F*** yeah! We gave AMD just long enough (I'm pretty sure another few quarters would have seen AMD pretty much gone for good) to produce something spectacular.

Ryzen was a breath of fresh air in the stale tech days of 2017. Between 2000-2010, I upgraded my PC almost monthly, I had every AMD XP from 1200 to 2800. I had E and Q 6600s, and more Intel chips. But in 2017, I'd had a i950 since 2011. 2500 was nice, sure, but I think I'd have had to step down to dual channel 16GB Ram from my triple channel 24GB, and I'm a photoshop/ premiere guy. And then I realised Intel was conning us, and vowed they wouldn't get my money until absolutely necessary.

Thankfully, that didn't happen. I'd said if Ryzen was anywhere close (like 15-20%) to Intel's current offering, that I'd hit that bandwagon so hard... I'm pretty sure it ended up being about 10% slower in games (I was on a 2560x1600 monitor, so at full res it was actually even less) but CRUSHED it in productivity that could use more cores. I now have a 5950X on that same first motherboard I bought 6 years ago, with no massive difference in my benchmarks and reviews.

My OH, who always got my hand me downs, who's last PC had been a cheap 4460 (I think), now has a zen 4 7600X, and she'll get a zen 5, maybe even 6 without changing anything else.

And developers responded to Ryzen way faster than Bulldozer, because so did Intel. More cores came from both companies, and more software uses more cores - 6 is the very minimum now and... 8 is about ideal.

We weren't wrong. We were just a bit more optimistic and idealistic than reality allowed.

8 cores WOULD have been future proof, but one company COULDN'T give us a full 8 cores, and one company WOULDN'T give us a full 8 cores.

So feel free to make all the sarcastic threads you want, but you are cheering for a time when we were held back by capitalism rather than technology. Disgusting.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,816
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I recently sold the FX 8350 I bought from Virtual Larry. I had a thread revisiting that CPU a few years back - http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...ime-to-talk-about-it-because-reasons.2581021/

What's important to remember is that by the time Haswell showed up, you could get a FX 8320e on sale for less than the cheapest i3, and an FX 8350 on sale for the same or a little more than the most expensive i3. Newegg would fire sale FX like that every few months. The i7 was in a class by itself for mainstream users and priced accordingly. I paid less than a $100 for my 8320e and 8350 BNIB BITD. That's less than the i3 sold for. By contrast I paid $220 for the Devil's Canyon i5. Go watch RA Tech's vids I shared in that thread and tell me how the 2/4 and 4/4 Intel CPUs held up in more modern gaming on windows 10 vs similarly or lowered priced 8 series Vishera. Or even in more multithreaded games of the era like Battlefield 5 64p and Witcher 3. Richard from Digital Foundry was the first reviewer I am aware of to point out that in Novigrad the i3 and i5 were having frame pacing issues while the 8350 was providing a superior experience. I had some stuttering issues with a 3200G in that scenario with 100% CPU usage. My testing with the 8350 showed it to be better in the same situation with the same GPU, despite PCIe 2.0.

I completely ignore the bar charts tech reviewers provided. As RA Tech demonstrated, the testing methodology used was garbage. Letting benchmarks run, spit out data, then posting the results as bar graphs. lazy and inadequate. RA Tech has a video about it. Watch and listen to the benchmarks running. In Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Ivy Bridge i5 had audio issues, and failed to render assets and NPCs. It will spit out good numbers at the end though. RA was playing games and using discord on windows 10 (you know how many gamers actually use their gaming PCs) and experiencing audio issues on those old similarly priced Intel CPUs, the FX was fine. That said, there were and still are games where the better single thread IPC of those i3 and i5 Intel CPUs makes a positive difference to playability vs FX, which IMO is all that matters, the gaming experience. Not bigger bar better on charts. Most test suites were automated and or unattended. And certainly not jumping in 64p MP and playing a few rounds then reporting back. Instead testing early in games which is usually less CPU taxing. In game test runs, when not using canned, were and often still are, under a minute each, often under 30 seconds.

It's kind of weird to see people dunk on FX, when it was Intel that sat on their hands all those years and gave us basically the same CPU over and over with some price creep. Let me guess; it's AMD's fault for not being competitive. That explanation if given, is simping at its finest i.e. that it isn't just okay, but rather, expected, that the company dominating the industry can fail to push innovation and reserve more cores for HEDT where they could REALLY juice you for them. Yes indeed, the onus is on the underdog to prevent the competition's anti consumer practices.

I'll end this reply by saying I've used an FX 8350 with 990FX at up to 4.6GHz. I didn't push it because the extra MHz don't move the needle much after that. I tested with up to 32GB of 2133MT/s. I did that until a few months ago. It was still a very capable daily driver for internet, multimedia, and casual gaming. 2023 games kicked it in the jimmy of course. leading to the pronouncement of -

 
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NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
3,689
1,223
136
I forgot to point out that according to the U.S. justice system FX was only 4 cores. So Bryan can suck it.🤣
It was a settlement, so AMD paid the court system to do the opposite. You in fact can't deny that it doesn't have eight cores. (There is only ever eight-cores for FX-8, six for FX-6, four for FX-4, etc)

Note the website is eight cores and eight threads. You can't actually lawsuit them for this claim because they won the settlement by buying out any further litigation/trials. Think of it AMD strategically/tactically lost the battle to win the war. Sure they pay people a few dollars but this issue can never legally come up again.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
AMD was correct, 8 cores are better than 4. In fact, M0aR3 C0R3s was the future. They just had yet to find the better way of using them. I used a 8320 until I built my current R5 2600 and at no point was my life ruined. Wouldn't want to go back though.
 
Reactions: DAPUNISHER

linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,334
857
136
Hopefully anyone that's still on an ancient 10-11 year old CPU has moved on to greener pastures. I don't think anyone thinks that Bulldozer was a success or a successful architecture.
 
Reactions: DAPUNISHER

dr1337

Senior member
May 25, 2020
385
639
136
What is the point of comparing today?
Reflection on what people said in the past and seeing what really came true and what didn't helps us properly learn from history. Here we see in this very thread people saying that having higher power consumption for slightly better MT and worse ST performance isn't an objective loss. Just because a slow chip is still okay enough doesn't mean it was really ever good even at the time let alone in the future.

I used a lot of different systems in the early 2010s and the 6300 PC I used at work never felt any better than my old 1090t at home that got replaced with a 2700k which was amazing at everything. I wound up using an i5 haswell thinclient at work few years later and it was literally always faster than the FX rig with much less noise and heat. The benchmarks don't lie and anecdotally I can confirm.

So what's the point in comparing today? To help educate the ignorant and preserve history from being rewritten. If at some point AMD or Intel or anyone in the industry starts making similar mistakes, if we learn from history, this becomes obvious much sooner. Only if we learn though.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
25,741
14,772
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Because AMD was a painful experience for more than a decade. People have not forgotten that experience.
I don't know why it was so painful. If Intel is better for the money, buy it. If AMD is better, then buy it.When the Athlon started to beat Intel, I bought those. When Intel came out with core 2, I bought those. When Ryzen came out I bought those. I have lost track of how many times I have switched.
 
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