So tell me again, why was Obama so bad?

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
I'm still surprised he pulled that off, but it is typical.
Found it:

Wartime Elections

Historically, presidents have done very well in wartime reelections. Nixon was easily reelected in 1972 in the midst of the Vietnam War, Franklin Delano Roosevelt was reelected in 1944 in the middle of World War II, Abraham Lincoln was reelected in 1864 during the Civil War, and James Madison was reelected during the War of 1812. The nature of these wartime reelections is best captured by Lincoln’s reelection slogan: ‘‘Don’t change horses in midstream.’’ Incumbents invariably argue that wartime is not the time to oust an incumbent from office.

http://people.bu.edu/dinopc/papers/changinghorses2004.pdf
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The lack of prioritization, vision and leadership as you describe may be an apparent symptom of the party, but IMO, not the cause. I feel the cause of such symptoms have more to do with the typical Dem legislator's habit of being more individualistic, more reflective and, dare I say, more attached to the needs of their constituency, especially when compared with the Repub's legislators more like-minded and "orderly" approach toward accomplishing their national agenda?

If I recall, once upon a time before the severe in-fighting occurred when the Tea Party mounted their hostile takeover of the Party proper, the term lock-step was exclusively reserved for describing the GOP. As the Party's problems mounted with the ever tightening grip that the Tea Party exerted over it (remember how costly it was for the Party proper when the "insurrectionist Tea Party faction" forced a partial shutdown of gov't services?) Remember Boehner having to resign because he could not control the hardliner Tea Party caucus that wanted to burn everything to the ground so they could reshape the nation in their image?

Well, it seems to me the one single remnant of that internal struggle, and also the glue that's keeping the party from completely falling apart is the abject obstructionist policy the Repub Party came up with "to force Obama to be a one term president". Sure, that policy failed miserably in that it not only failed to keep Obama from being re-elected, but it also failed from totally obstructing Obama's many accomplishments during his two terms.

Yet, true to form, the Repubs are in lock-step in this regard.
Reasonable argument, but I would counter that Democrats have a broader coalition to appease, and struggle to unify at times. There are forces within the Democrat coalition that are naturally in opposition. A west coast evironmentalist has very different goals than a blue collar union coal miner, yet both are Democrats. Christian conservatives however will more easily rally around certain causes, and Republicans in general draw their leaders from wells that are more accustomed to leading complex organizations. Why do so many blue states have legislative majorities yet quite frequently elect Republican governors?

My personal preference is a diverse and Democrat lead legislature with a moderate Republican at the helm to keep their spending in check and to also align all of the voices to a broader national strategy.

I disagree that Democrats are more in tune with their constituents, or that Democrats do a better job of keeping their elected leaders in check. Charles Rangel and DWS being two notable examples. I have a real problem with career politicians in the sense that they only seem to remember their constituents come election time.
 
Reactions: trenchfoot

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
The ARRA relied too heavily on tax relief and not enough on job creation, and I found that even the governance and prioritization of ARRA infrastructure projects got little bang for their buck.

So originally you said Obama should throw the Republicans a bone and now you're arguing against him throwing them a bone?

The Republicans got their asses handed to them after 8 years of failed foreign policy. They were in no position to denounce much of anything. They played chicken with Obama and he blinked.

How so? He pursued his own renewed foreign engagement despite their enraged opposition. What did he blink on?

The opposition party exists to oppose and they did it in an furious and underhanded manner.

Your response to every point I made was essentially Republican obstructionism. That is my point entirely. Obama the candidate never really pivoted to Obama the President, and failed to find his stride or momentum to contend the inevitable obstructionism, especially from the Tea Party. I expected more.

My response to almost none of what you wrote was obstructionism. I was telling you that he did almost all of the things you claimed he needed to do in order to 'build momentum' and they did not have the results you seem to think they should have. I think this indicates your hopes were not realistic.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
So originally you said Obama should throw the Republicans a bone and now you're arguing against him throwing them a bone?



How so? He pursued his own renewed foreign engagement despite their enraged opposition. What did he blink on?



My response to almost none of what you wrote was obstructionism. I was telling you that he did almost all of the things you claimed he needed to do in order to 'build momentum' and they did not have the results you seem to think they should have. I think this indicates your hopes were not realistic.

It wasn't foreign policy that sank Repubs in 2008. It was the collapse of the ownership society flimflam. Repubs managed to evade responsibility for that & to blame Dems for a slow recovery from a situation it had taken them decades to create. After that, Repubs did their best to lock in the structural advantages they'd gained for the wealthy & to stymie govt efforts to turn it around.
 
Reactions: bradly1101

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
So originally you said Obama should throw the Republicans a bone and now you're arguing against him throwing them a bone?



How so? He pursued his own renewed foreign engagement despite their enraged opposition. What did he blink on?



My response to almost none of what you wrote was obstructionism. I was telling you that he did almost all of the things you claimed he needed to do in order to 'build momentum' and they did not have the results you seem to think they should have. I think this indicates your hopes were not realistic.
He threw them the wrong bone. Obama had a mandate of change, but the Democrats anchored the majority of stimulus funds to the failed policy of tax relief.

As for foreign policy, Obama blinked in the sense that he let Republicans drive the narrative for an exit strategy from Iraq, and found himself in the predicament of having to deliver on the promise of withdrawal without defining the conditions for it.

Obama "attempted" to do many of the things I suggested, but few succeeded. Is that a reflection of his leadership or experience or obstructionism or the fact that he built his campaign on an ideal and not a platform? Probably all of the above.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,752
4,562
136
They're bad things if you want a smaller Government like many of the Conservative voices around here. Honestly they'd be pretty happy with any President doing nothing.

If you want smaller government you're pretty much SOL as far as US politicians are concerned. Both parties want more government, just in different ways.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
He threw them the wrong bone. Obama had a mandate of change, but the Democrats anchored the majority of stimulus funds to the failed policy of tax relief.

As for foreign policy, Obama blinked in the sense that he let Republicans drive the narrative for an exit strategy from Iraq, and found himself in the predicament of having to deliver on the promise of withdrawal without defining the conditions for it.

Obama "attempted" to do many of the things I suggested, but few succeeded. Is that a reflection of his leadership or experience or obstructionism or the fact that he built his campaign on an ideal and not a platform? Probably all of the above.

Please. A huge part of foreign policy is honoring the commitments made in the past, the commitments of every President's predecessors. Commitments wrt troop withdrawal from Iraq were in place with that govt & the UN where our occupation mandate was coming to an end. There really was no compelling reason to act otherwise at the time.

Our troops never were part of the solution but rather instigators of the problems of today. They never should have been there in the first place.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,038
4,800
136
Hes not so bad, although he just cut NASA's budget, fucker!
We have more pressing issues in our country that require the funding that was being sent to NAS/A such as joblessness and free trade which is exporting our manufacturing jobs through globalism. We have to get our own house in order first before we can allocate resources to ventures such as manned space flight. If every country on the planet provided funding to NASA then let the shuttles fly but since they don't put them in the museums and let that money go to making life better for our people. We don't need a thousand super carriers either nor do we need bombers that can reach any target on earth within a hour when we have homelessness and joblessness issues in practically every city. Fund education to provide our country with smarter workers and feed and shelter the poor instead of burning it up in some giant fuel tanks.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
He threw them the wrong bone. Obama had a mandate of change, but the Democrats anchored the majority of stimulus funds to the failed policy of tax relief.

No, approximately one third were tax relief. If that bone was wrong, what bone should he have thrown them instead, specifically?

As for foreign policy, Obama blinked in the sense that he let Republicans drive the narrative for an exit strategy from Iraq, and found himself in the predicament of having to deliver on the promise of withdrawal without defining the conditions for it.

Of course he couldn't define the conditions for it, they were already set before he went into office. I'm not even sure what the criticism is here. Drive the narrative how? These seem like extremely nebulous criticisms like when people say someone needs to display 'leadership'.

Obama "attempted" to do many of the things I suggested, but few succeeded. Is that a reflection of his leadership or experience or obstructionism or the fact that he built his campaign on an ideal and not a platform? Probably all of the above.

What does 'built his campaign on an ideal not a platform' even mean? Have you considered that maybe what he tried to do and what you wanted him to do were the same thing, just not achievable? Maybe when your elected opposition has determined that they have nothing to gain from cooperating with you, that's just that.

Sincere question, what specific, concrete policy changes would you have made to Obama's first term that would have led to this momentum that you mentioned?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
Maybe it's because he is, "the son of a whore", as the Philippine President likes to call him.....
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
As for foreign policy, Obama blinked in the sense that he let Republicans drive the narrative for an exit strategy from Iraq, and found himself in the predicament of having to deliver on the promise of withdrawal without defining the conditions for it.

Iraq drove the narrative for our withdrawal. They said if you stay, you will be subject to our laws and Bush flinched and made the Status of Forces Agreement that Obama was forced to follow.

If only we had had a master negotiator like Trump instead of Bush. ;-)
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
No, approximately one third were tax relief. If that bone was wrong, what bone should he have thrown them instead, specifically?



Of course he couldn't define the conditions for it, they were already set before he went into office. I'm not even sure what the criticism is here. Drive the narrative how? These seem like extremely nebulous criticisms like when people say someone needs to display 'leadership'.



What does 'built his campaign on an ideal not a platform' even mean? Have you considered that maybe what he tried to do and what you wanted him to do were the same thing, just not achievable? Maybe when your elected opposition has determined that they have nothing to gain from cooperating with you, that's just that.

Sincere question, what specific, concrete policy changes would you have made to Obama's first term that would have led to this momentum that you mentioned?
Immediately leveraged the excitement around his election and the expectation of hope and change to launch a major campaign to create jobs aligned to roads, dams, bridges and infrastructure. A bold ten year job creating engine focused on strengthening the non college educated middle class.

As for Iraq and Afghanistan, I recognize that Obama inherited a major clusterf@ck, but it was also on him to set the path forward. I can't claim to know what he should have done as hindsight is 20/20 but I can observe that what he did do clearly didn't work given that we not only failed to contain the situation, but it spread to Syria, Libya and allowed ISIS to fill the vacuum
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Iraq drove the narrative for our withdrawal. They said if you stay, you will be subject to our laws and Bush flinched and made the Status of Forces Agreement that Obama was forced to follow.

If only we had had a master negotiator like Trump instead of Bush. ;-)
I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it further.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
Immediately leveraged the excitement around his election and the expectation of hope and change to launch a major campaign to create jobs aligned to roads, dams, bridges and infrastructure.

That's basically exactly what he did though?

A bold ten year job creating engine focused on strengthening the non college educated middle class.

Strengthening it how?

As for Iraq and Afghanistan, I recognize that Obama inherited a major clusterf@ck, but it was also on him to set the path forward. I can't claim to know what he should have done as hindsight is 20/20 but I can observe that what he did do clearly didn't work given that we not only failed to contain the situation, but it spread to Syria, Libya and allowed ISIS to fill the vacuum

Surely you can see how criticism isn't very useful if you can't identify anything he should have done differently, no?
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it further.
The right-wing narrative that blames Obama's pullout for the situation in the middle east boggles the mind.

The exchange started like this: at the end of Jeb Bush’s town-hall meeting in Reno, Nevada, on Wednesday, a college student named Ivy Ziedrich stood up and said that she had heard Bush blame the growth of isis on President Obama, in particular on his decision to withdraw American troops from Iraq in 2011. The origins of isis, Ziedrich said, lay in the decision by Bush’s brother, in 2003, to disband the Iraqi Army following the toppling of Saddam Hussein’s government.

“It was when thirty thousand individuals who were part of the Iraqi military were forced out—they had no employment, they had no income, and they were left with access to all of the same arms and weapons.… Your brother created isis,’’ she said...

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/did-george-w-bush-create-isis
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
I would think losing 800K/months during Bush was a major problem.
Auto industry almost going bankrupt was a major problem

That was an indicator of the quality of the cars they were manufacturing. Honestly I don't know how they continue to exist given their complete inability to match the reliability of Asian cars.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The right-wing narrative that blames Obama's pullout for the situation in the middle east boggles the mind.



http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/did-george-w-bush-create-isis
I dont envy Obama. He inherited a tremendous mess. But his election was also a strong referendum against Bush. At some point the problems you inherit become your problems if you fail to fix them. The ME is arguably in worst shape. I don't blame Obama for ISIS. I think it is fair to question his strategy for containing it.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
That's basically exactly what he did though?



Strengthening it how?



Surely you can see how criticism isn't very useful if you can't identify anything he should have done differently, no?
I am not sure what else you are looking for. I've made mention of several things he could have done better, or otherwise shifted priorities
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
I dont envy Obama. He inherited a tremendous mess. But his election was also a strong referendum against Bush. At some point the problems you inherit become your problems if you fail to fix them. The ME is arguably in worst shape. I don't blame Obama for ISIS. I think it is fair to question his strategy for containing it.
Agreed. We're witnessing the failure of an entire region, yet we think bombing the crap out of their cities and infrastructure is going to make the bad guys yield, because that's all we really know.

I do understand the targeted drone strikes, but for every non-fighter killed there is much anger created. This combined with the fear and anger of the displaced creates a backlash that should see this keep going for a long time, but at least the weapons manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank.

As far as foreign policy is concerned, I can think of one axiom; for every action there is a larger and opposite reaction.

I don't presume to know the solution, and Obama has a huge team advising him, but I fear we're making it worse.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
That was an indicator of the quality of the cars they were manufacturing. Honestly I don't know how they continue to exist given their complete inability to match the reliability of Asian cars.

That's no longer true & hasn't been for decades. That's just another example of the astounding persistence of mistaken belief. Kinda like Obama not being born in Hawaii...
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
That's basically exactly what he did though?



Strengthening it how?



Surely you can see how criticism isn't very useful if you can't identify anything he should have done differently, no?

The basic contention is that Obama somehow "failed" because he just couldn't handle it, couldn't get it right, so of course it's vague, entirely by design.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
I am not sure what else you are looking for. I've made mention of several things he could have done better, or otherwise shifted priorities

Yes, but the things you mentioned that he should have done were, you know, things he did.

If the whole idea is 'do the same thing, only better', I just don't see much of a basis for criticism. It's so vague that you could say it about literally anything.

I have no idea how you make the opposition follow your agenda when they are only concerned about their own primary voters.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |