So tired of research. Please help me! $1k 5.1 HT

[viivo]

Normally I wouldn't make a thread like this as I'm sure everybody hates them, but I've been searching and researching for a week for the optimal 5.1 setup for $1000 +/- $100, and the only things I've been able to almost settle on are the sub (Polk PSW505) and one of two receivers (Denon AVR1610 or Pioneer VSX-819H-K.)

This is for a small to medium sized room, so it has to be 5.1. Fronts can be either floorstanding or bookshelves, center has to do at least 50hz, and surrounds can be pretty much whatever you want to suggest.

Thanks for any help.

 

[vi edit]

You can do what I did(or close) :

Reciever: Onkyo 607 when it drops below $400 on occasion at Amazon

Center: av123 X-CS center $100
http://www.av123.com//index.php?pag...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Fronts: 2 more X-CS centers
http://www.av123.com//index.php?pag...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Surround: Dipoles from the speaker company: $101
http://www.thespeakercompany.com/TSS-B-525-Dipolar-2-Way-Surround-Sound-Speakers-Pair-P105.aspx

Sub: av123 MFW-15 $399
http://www.av123.com//index.php?pag...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

That's about $1200, but the subwoofer would eat that polk for breakfast and you have some very efficient, matched fronts. You aren't going to get 50hz for your price range in a center.

I have this setup and it's a very potent, well matched system for the price. Be mindful of the size of the speakers though. They are pretty good sized. And the sub is very large.

 

[viivo]

Thanks for letting me know about av123. Unfortunately the X-CS are out of stock. The sub looks awesome and I would love to have that beast even if it is too much for this room, but at over $500 after shipping it would put me way over budget after the receiver and just one pair of speakers.

Even though I had a horrendous customer service ordeal with tSC (they claimed I never payed them through Paypal for an order. Called back and forth for weeks. After a month I filed a paypal claim and was refunded within 3 hours. No apology, no discount, nothing) I will consider the dipoles.

Also, wouldn't getting a center that can only do 90hz pretty much cut off two thirds of the male voice? I'm upgrading from an Onkyo HTIB and I'm sick of that crap.

 

[vi edit]

Your center is likely going to be crossed over at 80hz along with the rest of your fronts. And even though some centers say they hit a certain level, who knows what the measurable volume at that point really is. I wouldn't really get too caught up in how low the center plays..within reason.

If you want something cheap and in stock I can sell you a Polk CSi3 that I have for sale in the FS/T forum.

Match that up with some RTi8's on sale at Fry's on occassion for $300/pair and that's a nice front stage.

For a sub you can go with the Bic 12" for under $200
http://www.shopblt.com/cgi-bin/shop...1100400U0213_BT46359P.shtml&order_id=!ORDERID!

I'm just really not a fan of Polk subs for the money.

 

[Apex]

Thanks for letting me know about av123. Unfortunately the X-CS are out of stock. The sub looks awesome and I would love to have that beast even if it is too much for this room, but at over $500 after shipping it would put me way over budget after the receiver and just one pair of speakers.

Even though I had a horrendous customer service ordeal with tSC (they claimed I never payed them through Paypal for an order. Called back and forth for weeks. After a month I filed a paypal claim and was refunded within 3 hours. No apology, no discount, nothing) I will consider the dipoles.

Also, wouldn't getting a center that can only do 90hz pretty much cut off two thirds of the male voice? I'm upgrading from an Onkyo HTIB and I'm sick of that crap.

You really should consider that MFW-15 sub vi edit suggested, even if it takes a bit of stretching. It's absolutely incredible for the price. I'd sacrifice elsewhere before I'd sacrifice there.

 

[viivo]

I'm not beholden to a polk sub, I just thought that one looked pretty good for the price: $250 for a 300w RMS 12".

I'm considering all BIC components since they are getting pretty good reviews.

Center: http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-DV...3574870&sr=1-5

Front and surrounds: http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-DV...d_bxgy_e_img_b

If I were to scrape some extra for that monster sub, would it overpower the mains?

Would two of those Dayton 12" on partsexpress be better than the polk?

 

[vi edit]

There's not really a way a sub can "overpower" a set of speakers. What can happen is if your fronts can't reach down to the crossover point of the LFE you can have a null between their rolloff and where the sub takes over and that leaves the sub feeling overly loud because there's no graceful transition.

As for the difference between two daytons and one polk, I would most certainly say you'd have better results with the two daytons. They'd provide more output and balance out the bass response in the room.

That being said, MFW will still dig deeper, and louder than the two Daytons. But you lose some ability to balance out the sound.

I can't comment on the BIC speakers as I've never heard them.

 

[vi edit]

One perk about going dual subs with the Onkyo 607 is that it's a 7.2 channel receiver. It has two LFE ouputs on back that Audessy can EQ.

 

[Gulzakar]

For the speakers, I wouldn't consider AV123 at this time. Aside from my own poor experiences, a search around various forums will show their quality and service has declined...especially the MFW-15. I know a person going by "Chu-Gai" has done a lot of research.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53755

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60651

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1199788

SVS makes a nice 5.1 setup, as does Ascend Acoustics.

http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-sbs01.cfm Add a 10 inch subwoofer for not much more. It's a little over your budget, but you would be happy this this.

With a receiver, it pushes your budget up even further, but at the same times, it's probably in your best interest just to save a little more for better sound. At 1500, you could do fairly well.

 

[viivo]

This is probably what I'm going to do:

Onkyo 607 (dual LFE outputs and the advertised ability to use the extra channels to bi-amp the fronts since I'm only doing 5.1 [or 5.2] sold me on it)
Center: BIC America DV-62CLRS
Fronts: BIC America Venturi DV64
Surround: BIC America DV62si
Sub: Still not 100%, but it will probably be two Dayton 12s. I just hate paper cones.

I found the receiver for 389 and a few of the others for some good prices. All together it should run ~1150.

 

[blackangst1]

Along with the suggested receivers and speakers, I would encourage you to consider getting a seperate amp, even if its just 50W/channel. I guarantee 50W/channel dedicated vs what your receiver will put out is night and day.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Along with the suggested receivers and speakers, I would encourage you to consider getting a seperate amp, even if its just 50W/channel. I guarantee 50W/channel dedicated vs what your receiver will put out is night and day.

I'm going to give this suggestion a big "meh"

To get a 5.0 amplifier in this budget doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[viivo]

Sorry to keep bumping my own thread, but this will be my first non-HTIB so I want to make sure everything is right.

Can I use any RCA terminated cable as a subwoofer cable? If I do get two subs, I will need one rather long cable for the sub behind the couch. Would there be any signal loss with certain types of cable?

 

[vi edit]

Yep. It'll work fine. With my last setup I actually had a 50' run of coax with RCA adapters going to my sub. No problem at all.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Some of these threads end up being over a hundred posts long. Ask as many questions as you want.

If you need to get a new cable, you can get something like this
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10236&cs_id=1023601&p_id=2982&seq=1&format=2

 

[viivo]

I think I may already know the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway. If the towers (DV64) I'm ordering aren't bi-ampable (I can't find any info), would it hurt anything to run both the front and extra channels into the same input?

 

[blackangst1]

I'm going to give this suggestion a big "meh"

To get a 5.0 amplifier in this budget doesn't make any sense to me.

*shrug* It did to me when that was my budget. To each their own

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

*shrug* It did to me when that was my budget. To each their own

What was the system you got for $1k?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I think I may already know the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway. If the towers (DV64) I'm ordering aren't bi-ampable (I can't find any info), would it hurt anything to run both the front and extra channels into the same input?

I wouldn't bother worrying about this bi-wiring / bi-amping stuff.

(To get speakers built for this purpose in the hopes that the benefit of bi-amping would be enough to be the deciding factor on what to get)

 

[blackangst1]

I think I may already know the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway. If the towers (DV64) I'm ordering aren't bi-ampable (I can't find any info), would it hurt anything to run both the front and extra channels into the same input?

That would be bi-wiring, which has mixed reviews. Personally I wouldnt bother.

http://www.audioholics.com/educatio...s/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

Q: I've often wondered how much sonic improvement comes with bi-wiring and/or bi-amping speakers, assuming the speakers are of high quality to begin with. I would assume that bi-amping might be a better route?
A: Biwiring
There are mixed opinions about biwiring. I for one biwire my mains simply because I have the means to do so as I own a pair of specific biwire cables given to me as a gift. The sonic differences are subtle, if any. Many times people think they hear a difference because they expect to. In actuality, 12 gauge wiring should suffice for most applications. If you feel the urge to biwire and have the money for the added expense, go for it. Worst case, you can use the wire elsewhere if you don't notice any sonic improvements. Some people argue that biwiring eliminates backwave EMF when electrically separating the crossover and using separate cables. In actuality, these cables are hooked in parallel to one common amp and thus still electrically combine at the amp.
A: Biamping
There are some benefits if you are biamping with identical amps in the system. By doing so, you are now driving the speaker system with dedicated amplifiers for the High Pass (HP) and Low Pass (LP) portions. This may help in bass response, dynamics, and overall fidelity. Another benefit is electrical isolation between highs and lows of the speaker system as they are independently connected to separate amplifiers. This has the potential to reduce crosstalk and mutual inductance, assuming the chokes in the crossovers are isolated and the speaker cables are well separated from each other.

There also appears to be a benefit in passive biamping of amplifiers with finite output impedance such as those found in receivers. Having a dedicated amp to drive the woofer portion and another to drive the mid/tweeters can offer a better degree of system control and linearity assuming the power supply is capable of delivering the rated power into all four channels. In most cases however, very little power is consumed in the HP portion of the speaker since music above 8 kHz in harmonic in nature with very little energy.

However, if you amp is already beefy and accommodates your speakers and room and listening environment, than stay with what you have. Most audible differences are subtle if at all noticeable. The true benefits of bi-amping cannot be realized with passive crossover networks of a speaker system. Bi-amping truly shines when parts of the passive network of the speaker system is replaced by active networks where each amplifier is bandwith limited at the input. For more detailed information about bi-amping, we recommend reading the following article Benefits of Bi-Amping from Elliot Sound Products.



If you want to read a discussion about it that will probably be over your head (alot of it was over mine) you can read this thread:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29665&highlight=amping&page=9

One of the participants int he thread is a nuclear physicist. His discussion begins on page 10 of the thread.

 

[blackangst1]

What was the system you got for $1k?

Yammy HTR5680 receiver, Polk R50's, (already had Polk surrounds and center channel), and I picked up a Carver 125/channel 5.1 off craigslist for $200.

 

[viivo]

I've actually read that thread before and my understanding is that there is a large difference between bi-wiring (using the same amp) and bi-amping (using two amps). I consider myself a skeptic and in the world of audiophiles where people think using a $5,000 power cord will make their system sound better I make sure to research the terms I use.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Yammy HTR5680 receiver, Polk R50's, (already had Polk surrounds and center channel), and I picked up a Carver 125/channel 5.1 off craigslist for $200.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd assume that has more to do with the amplifier quality in the Yamaha? From what I've seen, the amps in the 6XX series from Onkyo have been pretty capable.

$200 for a 5.1 channel (or 5.0?) amplifier is a good deal though.

The receiver he's planning on getting doesn't have pre-outs either...

I don't know what is the cheapest receiver with a good Audyssey implementation that comes with pre-outs, but I'd assume that it would take up too much of the $1000 budget to leave room for the other components. I think squeezing in a receiver with pre-outs and then trying to find a good deal on a multichannel amplifier would be dumping too much of the budget into that part of the system... especially if he's planning on getting a receiver with above-average amplifier quality.

 

[blackangst1]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd assume that has more to do with the amplifier quality in the Yamaha? From what I've seen, the amps in the 6XX series from Onkyo have been pretty capable.

$200 for a 5.1 channel (or 5.0?) amplifier is a good deal though.

The receiver he's planning on getting doesn't have pre-outs either...

I don't know what is the cheapest receiver with a good Audyssey implementation that comes with pre-outs, but I'd assume that it would take up too much of the $1000 budget to leave room for the other components. I think squeezing in a receiver with pre-outs and then trying to find a good deal on a multichannel amplifier would be dumping too much of the budget into that part of the system... especially if he's planning on getting a receiver with above-average amplifier quality.

He should be able to find something decent for <$300 with pre-outs, if he wants to go that far. The thing about seperate amps is, you dont miss what you dont know. I guarantee you once you hear a system without and then with you would never sonsider building anything without them again. They make that much of a sound quality difference.

As far as receivers go, even if you went with a Pioneer Elite series, the power it puts out is no where near what a quality amp will put out. It just isnt. For example, when you get into the Elite series (or comparable) youre looking at somewhere between 25-35 pounds for the entire receiver. A decent seperate amp will weigh in 40-60 pounds. It's just not the same quality of power.

That said, that doesnt mean a decent entry level mid line amp (which is about what the OP is looking for) wont sound great-it will. But there just isnt a comparison when running a seperate. When I built my system it wasnt optional, and I pieced it together over a couple months to get good deals. Maybe the OP has that kind of time, maybe he doesnt. But it can be done if he's patient.

Just a quick look on Froogle...he could, for example, get a Yamaha 6040 for $200-$230. That is a fantastic receiver for the money.

 

[viivo]

Thanks for the great advice, everybody. Seriously, this has really given me something to think about. The room this will be in is basically my computer/console gaming room and, while I don't have exact measurements, is probably 10' by 20'. Yes, it's a tiny rectangle. What worries me is getting too extravagant for the room. As well, the system itself would mainly be for gaming as I watch maybe one movie a week.

Unfortunately craigslist isn't a viable option for me since I live in hicksville and the only things in the electronics section are Emersen DVD players for $200 and the like.