So, uh, which parts of the Bible do people generally not follow?

[SphinxnihpS]

christianity didn't shape western culture, western culture shaped christianity.
modern day christianity is not the product of some hippie commie from 2000 years ago, it's the product of 2000 years of revisionism.

christianity (like most religion) was nothing more than a means to an end and a way to control the masses. No pivotal event in human history was driven exclusively by the belief in a magic skyfairy, at most it was a justification and/or a beacon under which to rally the people.

spending your summers at bible camp is not essential to grasping history, and will often allow you to better approach things like the crusades from a purely scientific viewpoint, not from dogma and personal beliefs.

I'm off to bed so I guess I'll see tomorrow what kind of mental gymnastics you've come up with.

The first part of your premise is so lol that I shouldn't bother with the rest. Of course Christianity changed with Western culture, but it also brought Western culture about. Is the word evolution not in my posts? Nothing in the universe is static, and everything has an effect on everything else given proximity. I only replied because you're assuming I'm Christian. What on Earth gave you that silly idea? I didn't get my ideas from Bible camp, churches, or spiritual appointees. Modern Christianity? Where did I even say anything about it besides today's Christians obviously don't do the things codified as law in the Bible which we would find abhorrent today?

Christianity devised as a means to control the masses rings as absurd as any conspiracy theory. At the very least that's an over-simplification of the highest magnitude. Could it be used for that, certainly, was it created for that purpose, absolutely not. Religion is a means of answering questions which have no answers. Sure science gave us other means, but Science itself has proven that there will always be unanswerable questions, therefore there will always be religious notions. I could easily go grab some textbooks with Science in them and show you examples of "truth" which today we would laugh at. I don't even have to go back 3000 years; I could go to the 1970s.

Religion is the basis of most ethics, and ethics is the basis of law. Is religion responsible for controlling the masses, indirectly yes. Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Let's look at that from an atheist standpoint. Why should I not kill you, kill myself, kill everyone, do nothing, do anything? There is no god, motivate me, GO!

 

[IronWing]

Go read up on Onan.

And this: http://bible.cc/ezekiel/4-15.htm

 

[darkswordsman17]

In the interests of not writing a library I over-simplified some things, but the main points are correct. All of the monarchies in Europe before and after the Enlightenment were Christian, but the interpretation of the religion changed as populations began to migrate to cities, and people began to do other things besides being either a serf or a royal. The ideas were present in the Bible long before any of the monarchies. It's also not as if this evolution of thought was some static one-directional thing either, there were periods of backsliding. The Hebrew culture was not in isolation, and itself underwent an evolution. Perhaps they were not the first nation or culture with laws, but in that pre-european time period, laws were something novel and not ubiquitous. Some other cultures that developed them died or were isolated (Minoans, Egyptians). What I am saying is there is an unbroken chain of cultural and philosophical events that stretch from pre-hebrew cultures all the way to the present day. The biggest change in the Enlightenment was the introduction of the printing press, so that everyone could essentially read the ideas for themselves. Suddenly a new wave of brainpower was aimed at understanding the Bible's message, and it didn't always jive with what people were told by their overlords.

Would we have come to where we are today without Christianity, possibly, but impossible to tell, but the fact of the matter is that our American ideals are all rooted mainly in Christianity, and all of the sub-ideas that sprung up were reasoned out with that god in mind.

I realize that I my answer is akin to answering "How do you make a table?, "With a seed", but that doesn't make the answer wrong, it just leaves out a little bit about what goes on in the process from seed to table.

You basically just reiterated your argument and in no way did anything to refute his.

The ideas were present long before the bible. They were present in multiple societies isolated from anything to do with the bible. That's why your reasoning is flawed. Just because the bible has existed during what you're talking about doesn't make it the reason it happened or the whole basis for those societal changes. Human history goes back much farther than the bible and we know similar things took place then.

Much of what you're speaking about seems almost inherent to humankind's consciousness (hell some of it can probably be observed in animals), just because the bible and Christianity was smart enough (not really smart as it tends to happen when humans group together) to co-opt ideas like those does not make it the source of them.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

You basically just reiterated your argument and in no way did anything to refute his.

The ideas were present long before the bible. They were present in multiple societies isolated from anything to do with the bible. That's why your reasoning is flawed. Just because the bible has existed during what you're talking about doesn't make it the reason it happened or the whole basis for those societal changes. Human history goes back much farther than the bible and we know similar things took place then.

Much of what you're speaking about seems almost inherent to humankind's consciousness (hell some of it can probably be observed in animals), just because the bible and Christianity was smart enough (not really smart as it tends to happen when humans group together) to co-opt ideas like those does not make it the source of them.

But I did. I'm not arguing that it was the first or best source of these ideas, just the source we got them from. Other sources came into our knowledge reletively recently. It doesn't matter though, he was only attacking a minor point. The main point was always Christianity is important in understanding this culture. You may not like that, but you can't seriously refute it without being laughed at. Do you think it's important? You seem to have studied stuff.

 

[Crono]

People get the wrong impression that Christianity is about picking and choosing what to follow from the Old Testament.
It's not.

What you have to understand, and what is made clear from reading the Bible and everything within proper context, is that the Old Testament (e.g. Levitical) laws were designed for the protection and preservation of Israel and the Jews as a nation and people. There are strict laws and regulations concerning cleanliness, treatment of others, rules regarding justice and war, and property rights.

Now people today want to judge God and the Bible - as if you or I have any place to judge - but the undeniable fact remains that the Jews have survived as a distinct group of people over nearly 4,000 years, and through (to put it mildly) some very rough times including brutal persecution. So I would say the laws worked.

Now when it comes to Christians, the laws don't apply one to one, because we are mostly Gentiles and not a nation in the land of Israel. And even in the Old Testament there was promised a future new covenant, and when the messiah (Jesus) came we entered a period of grace. Which is why in the New Testament it says for Christians, because the old system has passed away and Christ has fulfilled the purpose of the law (being to illustrate our own sinfulness because we cannot uphold the law and indeed break it) and brought salvation by faith in God.

Grace isn't a license to sin, but rather asks Christians to do what is good in response to being saved. The morality of the Old Testament hasn't gone away, though, and the ten commandments are very much important. As is the spirit of the law, which was summarized by Jesus: love God and love your fellow man.

Even Jews today realize they can't uphold everything in the OT, especially the sacrificial system, primarily because the temple itself was destroyed as Jesus said it would be by the Romans, which occurred in 70 AD. They would like to rebuild the temple of course, but that becomes a slight political issue because of where the temple was located... anyway, that's another issue, but the point remains that it wasn't a blanket system designed for Jews and Gentiles for 4,000 years. Even looking at something like tithes and you realize that God isn't commanding a 10% gift to a church, but that 10% was for the running of the temple and for the Levites. In essence, it was a tax. The Old Testament law wasn't intended to be universal or complete on its own. Even Moses said that a prophet, a teacher would come to explain the law to them. The Old Testament wasn't the complete word of God: Christ came and fulfilled and explained it. His coming was prophesied hundreds of times in the Old Testament. See the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) to see how Jesus expounded upon and explained to the people how what really matters is the heart.

My advice to OP: read the Bible if you really want to understand. Get one like the MacArthur Study Bible (NASB) that has good footnotes. If you want to understand any book or anything period you have to have the context, and not take random verses from here and there. Verse is built upon verse, chapter upon chapter. I could quote different passages of scripture here and give you a ton of references, but I don't know what else you've read in the Bible, so my recommendation is start of by studying Romans. It's most of the essential gospel doctrines (truths) condensed into one letter.

For anyone looking to attack scripture - or anything, for that matter - just take it out of context. Even Satan, when tempting Jesus in the wilderness, quoted verses of scripture. It's very hard to be deceived or misled, though, when you've taken the time to study and examine something properly.

 

[Gintaras]

http://youtu.be/CE8ooMBIyC8

 

[Gintaras]

http://youtu.be/gPOfurmrjxo

 

[HeXen]

No, I'm honestly looking for some explanation.

I know some people don't follow the whole Genesis thing, despite it being part of the Bible, right? Do others do the same for Numbers, Deuteronomy, etc?

No explanation needed, it is kinda obvious ya know and i'm not even remotely religious. Looks like a typical Troll thread to me.

 

[SKORPI0]

The 5 Lost Commandments. :biggrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I48hr8HhDv0

 

[88keys]

Anything that involves subjugation towards another is generally followed.

Anything that involves the prohibition of things that people generally like to do like drink alcohol, eat seafood, eat meat whenever we want is generally not followed.

 

[dud]

Leviticus? Numbers? Deuteronomy?

I did a quick search for "stone to death" and came across these, and from biblegateway.com no less.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=stone+to+death&qs_version=NIV

Leviticus 24:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

Numbers 35:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 Or if anyone is holding a stone and strikes someone a fatal blow with it, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death. (so capital punishment for sure is *required* in the Bible)

Deuteronomy 22:13-22
New International Version (NIV)
(If a woman is found to not be a virgin shortly after she's married, provided she lived previously with her parents)
21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. (so cheating gets capital punishment, as well as polyamorous relationships)

Do people just ignore these sections nowadays?

Fuzzy, you used to have my respect. I stress used to.

Now all you've become is an Internet troll.

So sad ...

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Fuzzy, you used to have my respect. I stress used to.

Now all you've become is an Internet troll.

So sad ...

Uh, check my replies in this thread.

 

[debian0001]

Who Wrote The Bible? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXlFWBcxBo

This is a great documentary that aligns the bible with history at the time.

 

[Farang]

My understanding is that the New Testament is mostly all that matters. Christ basically came and said 'a lot of what you're doing is wrong, this is what God wills.' So when people pick out crazy statements in the old testament, that was what Christ was sent to correct. He basically came and said drop all the rules, love one another, accept God, still follow the commandments, and you're good to go.

At least that is my understanding. I'm not a Christian was raised Catholic

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

No explanation needed, it is kinda obvious ya know and i'm not even remotely religious. Looks like a typical Troll thread to me.

Yeah, ok. I say that I'm not trolling yet you don't believe me. Don't know what else I can do. I mean, what I'm saying is the *truth*.... but you choose not to believe me.

Like I said, I don't know what else I can do to convince people that this isn't a troll thread.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

My advice to OP: read the Bible if you really want to understand. Get one like the MacArthur Study Bible (NASB) that has good footnotes. If you want to understand any book or anything period you have to have the context, and not take random verses from here and there. Verse is built upon verse, chapter upon chapter. I could quote different passages of scripture here and give you a ton of references, but I don't know what else you've read in the Bible, so my recommendation is start of by studying Romans. It's most of the essential gospel doctrines (truths) condensed into one letter.

For anyone looking to attack scripture - or anything, for that matter - just take it out of context. Even Satan, when tempting Jesus in the wilderness, quoted verses of scripture. It's very hard to be deceived or misled, though, when you've taken the time to study and examine something properly.

I tried reading the NASB translation and couldn't make heads or tails of it. It's too hard to follow and not in colloquial English. Note that I have an EXTREMELY difficult time understanding Shakespeare.

I found the "God's Word" translation WAY easier to understand:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans 1-16&version=GW

 

[edro]

As others have said, the Old Testament was before Jesus Christ, so of course it can be batshit crazy... just like a lot of what is written in that time period from other parts of the world.

 

[Broheim]

The first part of your premise is so lol that I shouldn't bother with the rest. Of course Christianity changed with Western culture, but it also brought Western culture about. Is the word evolution not in my posts? Nothing in the universe is static, and everything has an effect on everything else given proximity. I only replied because you're assuming I'm Christian. What on Earth gave you that silly idea? I didn't get my ideas from Bible camp, churches, or spiritual appointees. Modern Christianity? Where did I even say anything about it besides today's Christians obviously don't do the things codified as law in the Bible which we would find abhorrent today?

Christianity devised as a means to control the masses rings as absurd as any conspiracy theory. At the very least that's an over-simplification of the highest magnitude. Could it be used for that, certainly, was it created for that purpose, absolutely not. Religion is a means of answering questions which have no answers. Sure science gave us other means, but Science itself has proven that there will always be unanswerable questions, therefore there will always be religious notions. I could easily go grab some textbooks with Science in them and show you examples of "truth" which today we would laugh at. I don't even have to go back 3000 years; I could go to the 1970s.

Religion is the basis of most ethics, and ethics is the basis of law. Is religion responsible for controlling the masses, indirectly yes. Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Let's look at that from an atheist standpoint. Why should I not kill you, kill myself, kill everyone, do nothing, do anything? There is no god, motivate me, GO!

how exactly did christianity create western culture?

science has not proven that there are unanswerable questions, only that we currently lack the means to find the answer, to say that there is no answer to a question would be to answer it. Early religion started out as way to answer the questions we lacked the means to answer, later religions such as the abrahamic religions were however not created to this end, instead absorbing and/or displacing the religions that were.

religion is not the basis of ethics, ethics is the product of naturally occuring mechanisms in social animals. It is the adhesive that holds together a group, a dysfunctional group is more likely to fail and thusly Darwin will claim his prizes, weeding out those who lack "ethics". Ethics is the result of evolution, not necessarily a biological evolution, but also a sociological evolution.

as far as motivating you goes, I don't need to, your natural instincts will do so for me... and if they don't, then you will die and nothing of value will be lost.

 

[AmdEmAll]

LOL religion

 

[88keys]

how exactly did christianity create western culture?

Look up the Eastern and Western Roman empires

 

[dud]

Uh, check my replies in this thread.

I'm sorry ... but I have a life outside of AT. One must ask (at a pivotal time in history) why one with a mind and conscious would start a thread like this. In the US ... most people believe in God ... but do not want to push their beliefs on others who do not share this belief.

Then threads like this get started. Why not bring a suicide vest to the party?

 

[sandorski]

I'm sorry ... but I have a life outside of AT. One must ask (at a pivotal time in history) why one with a mind and conscious would start a thread like this. In the US ... most people believe in God ... but do not want to push their beliefs on others who do not share this belief.

Then threads like this get started. Why not bring a suicide vest to the party?

Maybe he wants to know?

 

[Broheim]

Look up the Eastern and Western Roman empires

and what exactly does dividing the roman empire into two empires due to the (at the time) extreme distances involved have to do with christianity?

 

[Tiamat]

Those particular rules apply to Israel only. We are OK here in the States.

 

[Juddog]

Leviticus? Numbers? Deuteronomy?

I did a quick search for "stone to death" and came across these, and from biblegateway.com no less.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=stone+to+death&qs_version=NIV

Leviticus 24:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

Numbers 35:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 Or if anyone is holding a stone and strikes someone a fatal blow with it, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death. (so capital punishment for sure is *required* in the Bible)

Deuteronomy 22:13-22
New International Version (NIV)
(If a woman is found to not be a virgin shortly after she's married, provided she lived previously with her parents)
21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. (so cheating gets capital punishment, as well as polyamorous relationships)

Do people just ignore these sections nowadays?