So why did Donald Trump win? Flipside to the Clinton/lose thread

[Chiropteran]

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Everyone who told me not to vote Trump was pretty much stuck on the bottom two rungs of the levels of debate. Ad-Hominem and Name-calling.

Maybe he won because nobody actually refuted his real policy ideas, they were too busy focusing on the mean words he said.

 

[Indus]

Because Democrats picked a candidate of experience.

Last 5 times in my memory.. the candidate of experience has lost.. Romney, McCain, Kerry, Gore, Dole.

And the wiki leaks stuff made a difference.. the bernie voters like me.. had a problem with Hillary stealing the election. I still voted for her but you will not believe how many said to me I can't vote for her. I thought it was a small number. I was so wrong.

And looking at the total votes.. its not like he had more votes than Romney.. people who are normally democrats just didn't show up for her. That and maybe closing the poll places helped.

 

[momeNt]

There was very low turnout, and low turnout generally helps Republicans. I mean despite the US population growing by about 20 million people Trump while winning looks likely to get fewer votes than John McCain did getting blown out in 2008.

You really don't need a more complex narrative than that.

That's how, not why though.

By likening it to McCain's turnout, maybe Trump didn't steal votes, but maybe instead people didn't show up to vote for Hillary?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Because Democrats picked a candidate of experience.

Last 5 times in my memory.. the candidate of experience has lost.. Romney, McCain, Kerry, Gore, Dole.

Yup. That is my armchair analysis too. Voters do not want D.C. insiders anymore.

 

[IBMer]

Translation: These people are stupid because they didnt for the nth time go vote democrat like their Unions told them.

Amazing how quickly progressive shit all over the working class when the working class doesnt give their full support.

No I feel they are misguided to trust that a man who has outsourced everything he can is going to be the one to bring jobs back. Or the man who has used government corruption to get out of lawsuits is going to end government corruption... the list goes on.

 

[fskimospy]

That's how, not why though.

By likening it to McCain's turnout, maybe Trump didn't steal votes, but maybe instead people didn't show up to vote for Hillary?

Exceptionally bitter, negative campaigns tend to lower turnout. By muddying up the waters with that ridiculous email nonsense and all those other made up 'scandals' you depress turnout. On Trump's side his turnout was depressed because of his erratic behavior and character issues I imagine.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Trump didn't win the election, the Democrats lost it by running Hillary. She wasn't likeable and had all the charisma of a toilet brush. Like it or not, a presidential election isn't about politics, it's about popularity. The pollsters also thought she would pull in the same D voters as Obama but failed to realize that the minority D voters weren't motivated to go out and vote for some old white woman. There was likely a minor backlash to the cocky elitists as well who firmly believed that Hillary had this in the bag.

 

[vi edit]

Yup. That is my armchair analysis too. Voters do not want D.C. insiders anymore.

The duality of that interesting when it comes to state levels. States will vote in Senators for decades.

 

[Genx87]

No I feel they are misguided to trust that a man who has outsourced everything he can is going to be the one to bring jobs back. Or the man who has used government corruption to get out of lawsuits is going to end government corruption... the list goes on.

vs pledging support for a party that has done little for them over and over? I think democrats need to realize they have left the blue collar workers behind. And now the blue collar workers are leaving the democrat party.

 

[Sinsear]

These people are stupid; anything they can do robots can do better. (Including, evidently, voting. ) Manufacturing may come back, but cushy union jobs won't.

I heard in another thread that coal miners may also have been part of this demographic. I would compare coal miners to tobacco farmers: They both produce a product that kills people, largely through air pollution, and they should both find other jobs.

Thinking like this is what lost Democrats the election.

 

[IBMer]

vs pledging support for a party that has done little for them over and over? I think democrats need to realize they have left the blue collar workers behind. And now the blue collar workers are leaving the democrat party.

I don't disagree with you, but going to the union busting, pro-free trade party doesn't seem like the best answer. Trump appealed to them by saying he was different, but his history stated otherwise.

 

[FerrelGeek]

What jobs should / can they find? Entry level programming jobs? Those are outsourced to eastern Europe and Asia. Landscaping, construction, Uber drivers? I'm not being snide or sarcastic; it's a serious question. I agree with you that those cushy union jobs aren't coming back.

I think it's more specific than that. That area is called the "rust belt" for a reason. Steel workers there, and people who work with steel like car assembly line workers, think Trump will bring back manufacturing to the area, and thus bring back their cushy union jobs.

These people are stupid; anything they can do robots can do better. (Including, evidently, voting. ) Manufacturing may come back, but cushy union jobs won't.

I heard in another thread that coal miners may also have been part of this demographic. I would compare coal miners to tobacco farmers: They both produce a product that kills people, largely through air pollution, and they should both find other jobs.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Well, they knew that Hillary wasn't interested in them. Her vision of the Democratic party had 'outgrown' them. Then she topped it off with calling them deplorable. Her message came across loud and clear - 'I don't want you or need you'. She got what she deserved.

I don't disagree with you, but going to the union busting, pro-free trade party doesn't seem like the best answer. Trump appealed to them by saying he was different, but his history stated otherwise.

 

[flexy]

Simply spoken, because people were pissed and felt betrayed by establishment.

Just a few hours ago I watched something on CNN where they also asked how it came that he won.
Someone mentioned how the dems previously established trade deals "which benefited wall street".

There is only one problem: Americans are not "WallStreet". The avg. American doesn't give a shit about whatever deals that benefited "Wallstreet" or "the establishment", which Clinton was the poster child, in fact they are so pissed off they "hate" them.
They had it, so to speak.

Clinton didn't offer much to people, her speeches to me sounded often scripted and robotic. She only later started to sound "appealing" after Sanders lost where it was clear that she deliberately echoed what Sanders said to please some supporters. The rest of what she said was scripted shit people hear for 8 years already. Except that REAL, nothing has changed for the avg. person.

Trump won because he masterfully understands to talk to those "average" people, with an absolutely ingenious camapign and brilliant PR like his slogan "Make America Great Again", "Drain the Swamp" etc. Yes this is all rhetoric and most often demagoguery, but it resonated with people.

People did NOT necessarily like or trust Trump and believe everything he said. (I mean many Trump voters outright said 'Well I really don't like him...BUT....) <--- but the idea that the hated establishment would be crushed topped all this...(aka: "well I am ready to vote a buffoon into office, if it crushes the establishment that's already reason enough for me")

Basically: Many folks (and yes of course ALSO Sanders supporters ) had been ready for a revolution...and Trump in this case is the one who'd possibly make such a revolution true. Clinton: No way in hell. She was a really, really poor candidate...so poor that an even WORSE candidate, a buffoon like Trump, wiped the floor with her.

 

[Genx87]

I don't disagree with you, but going to the union busting, pro-free trade party doesn't seem like the best answer. Trump appealed to them by saying he was different, but his history stated otherwise.

Have you watched Trump? He is the protectionist\nationalist guy. Not a free market advocate. Hillary was for free trade candidate. Bernie was also for economic protection\nationalism.

I think this trend is the really scary part about this election. I suspect in 2020 democrats will also run an economic nationalist. It will hurt our economy long term.

 

[Chiropteran]

No I feel they are misguided to trust that a man who has outsourced everything he can is going to be the one to bring jobs back. Or the man who has used government corruption to get out of lawsuits is going to end government corruption... the list goes on.

Do you understand anything about business? If you have two legal reliably ways of getting thing X done, and one of those methods is 1/3 the price of the other, you go with the cheaper method.

Trump's plan is to incentivize local work, through import tariffs or other methods, so that rational businessmen will actually have a reason to consider local sources.

 

[Sonikku]

I agree with casanova. this is all a big screw you to the establishment. real revolution starts with an extremest to unite the people.

Fox is angling this election as a vindication for the Republican party against the Democrat party when it really seems like a middle finger to the establishment to both of them. The GoP may be surprised in 2017 when they find Trump has an axe to grind with more than just the Dems.

 

[Ken g6]

What jobs should / can they find? Entry level programming jobs? Those are outsourced to eastern Europe and Asia. Landscaping, construction, Uber drivers? I'm not being snide or sarcastic; it's a serious question. I agree with you that those cushy union jobs aren't coming back.

You're right, it's a problem. I don't think it's a problem any Republican can solve, though. I expect Republicans are inclined to let those who can't find a job starve.

A Democrat might be able to solve the problem with Basic Income, but I think only one as left-leaning as Bernie Sanders would even attempt such a thing.

 

[HomerJS]

People want change. They voted Trump to disrupt the status quo in Washington, that really is the crux of it. Not racism, not sexism, not Islamophobia (although of the three that one would hold the most water). They are sick of politicians and it really is as simple as that.

How does that explain keeping Republicans in congress?

 

[OrByte]

I think this is less of what Donald did than what democrats and Bernie Sanders did.

I've been pissed at Bernie Sanders for months. It all goes back to that god awful primary with Sanders. He lit the fire around Hillary and Trump was more than happy to keep the fires burning until democratic energy (voter turnout) was destroyed. Sanders did more damage than Trump, anyone ever notice that Trump consistently and boastfully used Sanders name every time he called Hillary a crook or a liar or a terrible person? Trump has been talking to Sanders supporters for a loong time.

Trump promised everything to everyone. He went to the rust belt and promised jobs, he went to the southwest and promised a wall, he went to Florida and promised...god knows whatever. He did what he was supposed to do and said whatever he needed to.

Bernie Sanders and his supporters are to blame for HRC's loss. the Dems have as much soul searching to do than ever this election cycle.

 

[Muse]

I agree with casanova. this is all a big screw you to the establishment. real revolution starts with an extremest to unite the people.

He's not an extremist. He's a self centered opportunist. You'll see... if you pay attention.

 

[fskimospy]

He's not an extremist. He's a self centered opportunist. You'll see.

This is the one hopeful silver lining. It's entirely possible that he was lying about his policies in the same way he lied about everything else. In that case maybe he won't enact some or all of the incredibly shitty things he promised.

 

[nakedfrog]

I think this is less of what Donald did than what democrats and Bernie Sanders did.

I've been pissed at Bernie Sanders for months. It all goes back to that god awful primary with Sanders. He lit the fire around Hillary and Trump was more than happy to keep the fires burning until democratic energy (voter turnout) was destroyed. Sanders did more damage than Trump, anyone ever notice that Trump consistently and boastfully used Sanders name every time he called Hillary a crook or a liar or a terrible person? Trump has been talking to Sanders supporters for a loong time.

Trump promised everything to everyone. He went to the rust belt and promised jobs, he went to the southwest and promised a wall, he went to Florida and promised...god knows whatever. He did what he was supposed to do and said whatever he needed to.

Bernie Sanders and his supporters are to blame for HRC's loss. the Dems have as much soul searching to do than ever this election cycle.

It's not Sanders' fault people actually wanted to vote for him, and that the DNC puked out HRC in response.

 

[Indus]

I think this is less of what Donald did than what democrats and Bernie Sanders did.

I've been pissed at Bernie Sanders for months. It all goes back to that god awful primary with Sanders. He lit the fire around Hillary and Trump was more than happy to keep the fires burning until democratic energy (voter turnout) was destroyed. Sanders did more damage than Trump, anyone ever notice that Trump consistently and boastfully used Sanders name every time he called Hillary a crook or a liar or a terrible person? Trump has been talking to Sanders supporters for a loong time.

Trump promised everything to everyone. He went to the rust belt and promised jobs, he went to the southwest and promised a wall, he went to Florida and promised...god knows whatever. He did what he was supposed to do and said whatever he needed to.

Bernie Sanders and his supporters are to blame for HRC's loss. the Dems have as much soul searching to do than ever this election cycle.

Yep blame us but she stole an election from him so we have a right to be pissed. Fuck you too election stealing establishment is the message I get from this election since Trump #'s are lower than Romney.

 

[OrByte]

It's not Sanders' fault people actually wanted to vote for him, and that the DNC puked out HRC in response.

I totally disagree

why did people want to vote for Sanders? because he was out there promising all sorts of crazy stuff (much like trump) and calling HRC a liar, a crook, and everything else. HRC ran a campaign that was traditional, vanilla, standard. Sanders (much like Trump) ran a campaign on fantasy and contempt.