No. People were paying attention this time. They don't want to be able to determine what is bullshit and what is true. They only care that they are being told exactly what they want to hear.
No. People were paying attention this time. They don't want to be able to determine what is bullshit and what is true. They only care that they are being told exactly what they want to hear.That might be oversimplifying things too much. It's more like the dogs have enough shit to do, to not be worrying about what's going on over in the farmer's house. They may come knocking when food hasn't been put out for the 3rd day straight though.
Unfortunately those who live in the farmer's house have mastered the art of releasing just enough information in just the right way to get all the hounds riled up.
No. People were paying attention this time.
Bullshit. I personally put the research right under their noses. THEY DON"T CARE. Their minds are made up and NOTHING will change them. They don't get to plead ignorance.Some were, some were just listening to the rhetoric. Some were just voting party lines. Some were just voting pro-whatever. This is the same as every other election. You think 90%+ of the voting population hangs out in political message boards with other (relatively) intelligent primates, discussing politics in-depth, listening to point vs counter point vs counter counter point forever? No. They listen to what fox/cnn say, hear about all the bad shit each side says/does, and make a decision based on whatever.
Researching stuff takes too much time for non-nerds to delve in to, and figuring out what is bullshit and what is truth with these shitsticks we get as our potential leaders takes more time than the VAST majority of Americans has time for.
Comey.
Bullshit. I personally put the research right under their noses. THEY DON"T CARE. Their minds are made up and NOTHING will change them. They don't get to plead ignorance.
Comey.
He should fall because he completely failed at his job.Doubtful. But he may just decide to fall on his sword for appearances.
Nope, we've been hating on Hillary for decades, Comey just pissed us off.
Jan, 1998, "Vast right wing conspiracy" was when I began to really hate the woman. Bill was guilty, and she knew it. $30 million dollars+ to impeach him. How many lives could that $ have changed? But we spent it proving they were liars, and it was just a drop in the bucket over the decades investigating them. Ken Starr was on the road to the USSC until his career was sidetracked on that mouse hunt, he was/is a good man and would have been a good justice.
OMG he lied about getting a blow job, a question that should never have been asked in the first place. Let's pretend that's the same as lying about corruption or committing outright fraud. Ken Starr was a fucking scumbag, and all the loons that bought into that fiasco just expose their ignorance and/or refusal to discuss actual issues.Nope, we've been hating on Hillary for decades, Comey just pissed us off.
Jan, 1998, "Vast right wing conspiracy" was when I began to really hate the woman. Bill was guilty, and she knew it. $30 million dollars+ to impeach him. How many lives could that $ have changed? But we spent it proving they were liars, and it was just a drop in the bucket over the decades investigating them. Ken Starr was on the road to the USSC until his career was sidetracked on that mouse hunt, he was/is a good man and would have been a good justice.
Your conclusion is only one of many possible explanations for that data. That sort of question can be answered "yes" for reasons other than "white nationalism."
I think it's far more likely that basic human psychological factors like fear of change, scapegoating and xenophobia far, far outweigh any KKK style nationalism. "Immigrants" makes a common enemy which in turn makes a common voting bloc. It's just basic psychological principles.
Sorry again. These people faced with contradictory evidence would then SPEND THE TIME to go on Google and look for any link that told them what they actually wanted to hear. Multiple non-partisan fact checking sites? I DON'T TRUST THEM THEY ARE PART OF LIBERAL MAINSTREAM MEDIA LYING TO ALL YOU SHEEP. Breitbart? Zerohedge? Alex Fucking Jones? I'll take anything they say as gospel because it's what I want to hear!Guy, that's what I'm saying. Putting that research there still means it has to be verified, citations verified, ensure that nothing was left out in order to craft a specific agenda, etc. Due to the barrier of entry for an omnipotent political awareness, most simply pick a hot-button issue and go with whichever candidate swings that way, barring anything apocalyptic from that (or another) candidate which swings them elsewhere.
They may not get to plead ignorance, but they can plead fatigue. Eventually the person has to decide whether it really matters between the douche and the turd.
Agent's perspective that this outcome was about race is a partial truth. White resentment was one factor. Not the most important because as I said above, a chunk of swing voters elected Trump. Those pivotal voters were likely not very racist. They just didn't like Clinton, for reasons both real and perceived. Given that this was the case, it is pointless to speculate about the degree of racism among core Trump supporters, because they are partisan and would have voted for any GOP candidate, with or without Trump's aggressive anti-immigrant stance.
Out of curiosity, since you are one who is arguing that Clinton essentially ignored white working class voters, what do you think she could have done to appeal to them? The only thing I can think of is not saying "basket of deplorables." From a policy perspective, I can't think of a single thing. If white working class people think that conservative economic policies, like cutting taxes on the super rich, are to their benefit, there is nothing the democrats can do about that unless they want to become a conservative party instead of a liberal one. Liberals believe that the economic policies they favor benefit everyone but the super rich, not just minorities. So what specific positions should she have taken to win over the white working class voters?
Most people that I know seem to be celebrating the fact that Clinton lost. You may say, "Well, how is this different than other years?" Normally, you celebrate the fact that your candidate won rather than the opponent losing. I know it sounds weird as they're intrinsically linked, but it's the viewpoint that you take on it that matters here. These same people also express dislike for Trump, but their displeasure over Clinton was far more vehement.
OMG he lied about getting a blow job, a question that should never have been asked in the first place. Let's pretend that's the same as lying about corruption or committing outright fraud. Ken Starr was a fucking scumbag, and all the loons that bought into that fiasco just expose their ignorance and/or refusal to discuss actual issues.
I would say not funny at all, actually.Funny how that worked out, huh?
especially when you consider the money and time wasted on it. And what it did to our country. Fvck ken starr, goddamned glory mongering fucktard.I would say not funny at all, actually.
I would say not funny at all, actually.
That certainly played into it, but you don't fight through that kind of slime by calling those people that would otherwise vote for you a "basket of deplorables." The Clintons navigated through those decades of mud-tossing pretty well, but all the while they were instrumental in re-shaping the party from a progressive, populist, working-class party to a more centrally elitist "big solution" party that stuck to high-minded think-tank socioeconomic experimentation to try and convince those working class stiffs to "learn to be like us!"--upward mobility (your job disappeared because that's what happens in societies; you are probably better off gaining new skills to make yourself competitive in interesting times--you just need to be a harvard-educated master of the universe like us and your life will be better!) rather than address the fact that these people really aren't going to be moving to different places and easily gaining new skills. This is the kind of thing I believe in (well, I don't think anyone can just easily be some harvard-educated MotU) and, to some degree think it's a workable practice if you instead treat people with respect and dignity, work with them in their world rather than tell them what they need to do to be more mobile and change their lives. This election was a kick in the ass for the modern democratic party and they really need to get back to those core values and learn how to talk to their historic base again.
None of this was reflected in the polling, but it is exactly what happened. Hillary could have probably survived that kind of nonsense had she spent more time talking to these people rather than preach at them from afar.
Dems have a legit problem here and it has been brewing for some time. The altright nutters have been saying it and no one listened to them. I don't find it difficult to admit how foolish we were on this because there really is no other way to look at it, when you consider the specific counties and demographics of obama and bernie "change" working class folks that roundly rejected her. These were also Bill people. You can argue all you want that their thinking Trump would fix them was irrational, but they still voted. Their problems are real and they do feel pain. They have repeatedly voted for the simplest message that promises to fix things for them. How hard is it to accept that several decades of these voters hearing hope and change and free trade, supporting it, then either having it bite them in the ass or the hope people just walk away from them once they got their vote, is going to cause real, visceral anger?
For all his faults and all his lies and blustering, Trump realized that and despite all advice he received to ignore them, he still went for them. And it worked. Conway and the Sp33dy's and LK's around here were constantly talking about this "silent, hidden Trump supporter base" lurking outside the polling. They were right. ..and these are democratic voters. That has to sting and I hope it does.
Remember how many hoped that Repubs would "learn from 2012" and become more inclusive, less radical, less racist and dismissive of poor people? Think they care about that anymore? Nope. Let's hope the dems, at least, absorb the primary lessons here and make attempts to restore their traditional base. Of course, that all assumes that Trump was just lying to them with empty promises as everyone before him. What if he wasn't? What if, even through dumb luck, these folks lot truly improves in the next couple of years?
Being in Oklahoma I didn't see many ads, but the ones I did see for Hillary were pretty terrible at actually motivating people. The were basically along the lines of Trump would be a bad role model, he says mean things, etc. Trump gave so much real ammunition to hit him, but they constantly went back to the "he's a jerk" card. Everyone already knew he was jerk, hit him on his flip-flops, lies and crazy policies. I just don't see how that would've really motivated anyone that wasn't already going to vote for her. Someone earlier in the thread talked about identity politics hurting her, and I would agree, even though I lean left (especially on social issues) some of the mentality of identity politics turns me off a lot and I know it turns off others far more.
She also took the rust belt for granted, even though Bernie beat her there. I never saw her really take a stand against outsourcing in any real way, and I can understand the people in that part of the country being sick of all the good jobs going away (not that I think Trump will fix that).
She was also a very easy target to sling mud at, and Trump is extremely good at slinging mud. She could've helped herself out by not using the private server or coming clean on it day one. It probably would've also been better to release the speeches, etc. But the hacks and the October 28th FBI letter were out of her control and could've made a big enough difference in this election and both allowed a lot more mud to stick. Her lack of press confidences all fed the untrustworthy/secretive narrative.
Finally, she is also just not inspirational. I can easily watch Obama or Bill speak, but even though I supported her, I never could watch her give a stump speech. I also couldn't stand listening to Trump, but he obviously inspired some people.
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Ken Starr was a muck-raking piece of shit. He was charged with investigating Clinton investments, that was it. No wrong doing was found. On his own authority, he expanded his investigation into areas where he never had a right to go. I believe his prosecutorial misconduct rose to the level of criminal. For fucks sake, the shit bag was literally investigating whether the president got a blow job or not.
Exactly. Her message was anti trump. That doesn't work. I'm in California and was still bombarded by her negative ads and I thought they became annoying after a while. We get it! Trump sucks! But why should we vote for you? And I never saw an ad that articulated that reason very well.