So why do (especially AT P&N) socialists think it's ok to take from those who rightfully earned?

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Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: hellokeith
This has been bothering me for a while, and I still can't figure out the thought process.

1. Person works hard, plays by the rules, and makes money.
2. Person does not work hard and makes excuses, blames others, waits for handouts.
3. Socialist takes money from #1 and gives to #2, in exchange for continued political/economic power.

How is this not agreed upon by a concensus as ethically wrong? Even illegal?

Most people would agree that people should get what they deserve and that they're entitled to keep what they have earned.

But how do you figure out who actually earned what and whether someone was overcompensated or undercompensated?

Unfortunately, in reality, these things aren't nearly as black and white as they seem. Not everyone who works hard gets the amount of money they deserve and not everyone who receives large amounts of money worked hard for it or actually deserves it. Luck and bad luck also play significant roles. Discrimination that a person can suffer or that ends up favoring someone can also play a role (the bald guy who gets turned down for a job he's more than qualified for because he has naturally bad looks, etc.). Government policy and economic phenomenon can also influence compensation positively and negatively regardless of one's merit, etc.

A more interesting question might be...without knowing your income at all...would you be willing to pay a certain amount of taxes if you had a high income in exchange for receiving a certain amount of social welfare benefits in the event that you had a low income? Would those social benefits have a greater value to you if you were poor than the money you would otherwise keep if you were well off? When you look at it that way, it almost looks like an insurance calculation.

You might also contemplate the issue of the initiation of physical force and regard that as an absolute evil, however, once again, it's hard to say exactly who is initiating force against whom and what types of things constitute an initiation of physical force. For example, if you have ownership of some land and you're not using it and someone else wants to use it to plant vegetables, might they regard you as initiating physical force against them? Just what exactly is your claim to the unused land anyway and why does it have a basis in reality?

When you start asking the tough questions and try to pierce religiously-held philosophical dogma dressed up as reason and rationality, you might come to see that, while issues of metaphysical fact might be black and white, a great many man-made economic issues are often very gray.



 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,407
4,968
136
Originally posted by: hellokeith
This has been bothering me for a while, and I still can't figure out the thought process.

1. Person works hard, plays by the rules, and makes money.
2. Person does not work hard and makes excuses, blames others, waits for handouts.
3. Socialist takes money from #1 and gives to #2, in exchange for continued political/economic power.

How is this not agreed upon by a concensus as ethically wrong? Even illegal?

I see tax as a way of a society to invest in their resource (people). It pays for education, healthcare, infrastructure, police, military etc. This way people will be better educated, feel more safe and in the end generate more money. Where between 0-100% of tax the optimal rate lies depends on political views and beliefs.

There's a clear statistical difference between your possibilities in life whether you're born into a middle class home, a very wealthy family or trailer trash. Depending on your political views you can argue how much society should do to even out the differences, so that those coming from a certain background with are given more help than others.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9


Having problems lets you recognize the flaws in the system. I want a system in place that lets everyone get care no matter their "pre-existing conditions" and I want others who have deadbeat parents to get care.

All you and others care about is your own greed. Money money money money. It is all that matters to you. Doesn't matter if people die from poor care as long as you get to keep your money!

Who cares if millions of Iraqis have to leave the country for their safety or tens of thousands die? At least American companies made money from it! Who cares if there is genocide in Darfur, there is no money to be made there or elsewhere in Africa so we don't care.

Your apathetic greed is too pervasive in society. people only care about themselves.

The fact remains that many many countries have good universal healthcare in place and it works.

People like you ALWAYS ignore the fact that public schools, police stations, and our post office is "paid by others" and it works well. People are just afraid of change... do you think people like you didn't exist when they started considering free public schools? Your viewpoint against change always loses.

I dont have extreme wealth to throw at the problem. Use some of your families wealth to help yourself instead of asking me, a person with little wealth, to help pay for your issues.

There are already systems in place for people with extreme issues or people who lack monetary means to pay for healthcare. You however fail in one of those litmus tests imo. I dont see a need to pay for a system that helps people waiting on a trust fund. Sorry, just doesnt interest me.


 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: shadow9d9


Having problems lets you recognize the flaws in the system. I want a system in place that lets everyone get care no matter their "pre-existing conditions" and I want others who have deadbeat parents to get care.

All you and others care about is your own greed. Money money money money. It is all that matters to you. Doesn't matter if people die from poor care as long as you get to keep your money!

Who cares if millions of Iraqis have to leave the country for their safety or tens of thousands die? At least American companies made money from it! Who cares if there is genocide in Darfur, there is no money to be made there or elsewhere in Africa so we don't care.

Your apathetic greed is too pervasive in society. people only care about themselves.

The fact remains that many many countries have good universal healthcare in place and it works.

People like you ALWAYS ignore the fact that public schools, police stations, and our post office is "paid by others" and it works well. People are just afraid of change... do you think people like you didn't exist when they started considering free public schools? Your viewpoint against change always loses.

I dont have extreme wealth to throw at the problem. Use some of your families wealth to help yourself instead of asking me, a person with little wealth, to help pay for your issues.

There are already systems in place for people with extreme issues or people who lack monetary means to pay for healthcare. You however fail in one of those litmus tests imo. I dont see a need to pay for a system that helps people waiting on a trust fund. Sorry, just doesnt interest me.

My problems are already taken care of by my wife's health insurance, as I have already stated and you ignored. I want others who are less fortunate to get care, including kids with deadbeat parents and the middle class who have "pre-existing conditions" that the morally and politically corrupt insurance companies exempt. You are greedy, I am not.

50 million people are without insurance.. are you saying you don't want to help them because they are waiting on a trust fund? Your "argument" makes no sense.. it is greedy and selfish...

"People like you ALWAYS ignore the fact that public schools, police stations, and our post office is "paid by others" and it works well. People are just afraid of change... do you think people like you didn't exist when they started considering free public schools? Your viewpoint against change always loses."

Are you against public schools, the police, and the post office? Why aren't you livid over them!?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Public schools? I am not against public schools. But ask anybody if they think our public school system is a shining beacon of achievement.
Police depts are fine.
Post office is a joke.

Anything else?

My problems are already taken care of by my wife's health insurance, as I have already stated and you ignored. I want others who are less fortunate to get care, including kids with deadbeat parents and the middle class who have "pre-existing conditions" that the morally and politically corrupt insurance companies exempt. You are greedy, I am not.

I am greedy because I dont want to fork over the bill for everybody on my block? Guilty as charged.

50 million people are without insurance.. are you saying you don't want to help them because they are waiting on a trust fund? Your "argument" makes no sense.. it is greedy and selfish...

I think we already established who is selfish here. A trust fund baby who wants everybody to pay for his healthcare if for whatever reason he loses his wife's health insurance plan.

Oh yes yes you really care for everybody else though lol

 

SniperWulf

Golden Member
Dec 11, 1999
1,563
6
81
Originally posted by: Shivetya
I just want to see the justifications these tax the rich twits have for TAKING BY FORCE over FIVE HUNDRED HOURS of my labor per year (actually that probably is low balling it)


What is the justification for you take the work I do and giving the proceeds to others? What is the justification for so taking so much from me?

I'm in the same boat as you... almost 1/3 of my gross income is eaten up in taxes.... would i like to pay less? Of course I would, who wouldn't? But do you see me bitching, moaning and thinking people are "lower" than me just because i make a good living? Guys like you that think the world owes you are the ones that make this country look like greedy money grubbing pigs to the rest of the world
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,693
2,155
126
Originally posted by: SniperWulf
Originally posted by: Shivetya
I just want to see the justifications these tax the rich twits have for TAKING BY FORCE over FIVE HUNDRED HOURS of my labor per year (actually that probably is low balling it)


What is the justification for you take the work I do and giving the proceeds to others? What is the justification for so taking so much from me?

I'm in the same boat as you... almost 1/3 of my gross income is eaten up in taxes.... would i like to pay less? Of course I would, who wouldn't? But do you see me bitching, moaning and thinking people are "lower" than me just because i make a good living? Guys like you that think the world owes you are the ones that make this country look like greedy money grubbing pigs to the rest of the world



He thinks the world owes him because he wants to keep more of HIS money that HE earned?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Nothing wrong with helping people out. However, it often seems that church organizations are more effective than the government. I am more interested in programs that help people to be more self sufficient. In other words offer the poor a job no one else wants and if they show up they get paid. It is better if people have something to do. People that sit around in the projects with no jobs just tend to get involved in crime. If a person has some kind of a job, any job, they are busy and feel productive. It doesnt matter to me if they sweep a stretch of road or shovel snow or cut weeds, or work as crossing guards, or do odds and ends for large companies. People need some busy work to do.

Idle hands are the workshop of the Devil!
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Public schools? I am not against public schools. But ask anybody if they think our public school system is a shining beacon of achievement.
Police depts are fine.
Post office is a joke.

Anything else?

My problems are already taken care of by my wife's health insurance, as I have already stated and you ignored. I want others who are less fortunate to get care, including kids with deadbeat parents and the middle class who have "pre-existing conditions" that the morally and politically corrupt insurance companies exempt. You are greedy, I am not.

I am greedy because I dont want to fork over the bill for everybody on my block? Guilty as charged.

50 million people are without insurance.. are you saying you don't want to help them because they are waiting on a trust fund? Your "argument" makes no sense.. it is greedy and selfish...

I think we already established who is selfish here. A trust fund baby who wants everybody to pay for his healthcare if for whatever reason he loses his wife's health insurance plan.

Oh yes yes you really care for everybody else though lol

You are really something else.

Post office is a joke, you think the public school system sucks, and I am a "trust fund baby" somehow... haha... Alrighty! You know me too well!

Where are your assumptions? Where oh where!

The people here are such a joke. I make a passing comment that my parents have made it fairly wealthy after working hard all their life and all of a sudden I am a "trust fund baby"! Excellent! When shall I be receiving this check? I really could use it. How could my wife lose her job? She has tenure..

To me, they have extreme wealth. They worked hard and saved enough to retire at a reasonable age. it has no bearing on me or the 50 million people in this country without health insurance. I will never be one of those 50 million. My wife makes 30k teaching in one of the lowest paying states in the country, and with my salary, we get by. Why would I want to pay more taxes? Simple, the world isn't just about me. This country is about something more and I would be proud to pay the bill for universal healthcare. Hell, we paid for friggin half a trillion dollars to kill people in foreign countries for the last 6 years... WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT!? Yep!!! You and me, in the form of taxes in the next few decades... Anyone who is pro war, and is anti healthcare is really really really sick in the head. I have a feeling you are one of them.

Helping others is what we should strive for in our lives.. it isn't just me me me... oh wait,for you it is! And of course, we already established this too, right?

"Public schools? I am not against public schools. Police depts are fine."

Good, then you won't be against universal health care after it becomes implemented either! Problem solved.

Fear of change is nothing to be ashamed of. Continue to bitch and moan on messageboards about it!
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
Nothing wrong with helping people out. However, it often seems that church organizations are more effective than the government. I am more interested in programs that help people to be more self sufficient. In other words offer the poor a job no one else wants and if they show up they get paid. It is better if people have something to do. People that sit around in the projects with no jobs just tend to get involved in crime. If a person has some kind of a job, any job, they are busy and feel productive. It doesnt matter to me if they sweep a stretch of road or shovel snow or cut weeds, or work as crossing guards, or do odds and ends for large companies. People need some busy work to do.

Idle hands are the workshop of the Devil!

The church is good at solving this problem?

But I will agree, I'm WAY more in favor of job training or help finding jobs than just flat out handing people a check every week. The end goal of any welfare program should be to get people OFF the program. And quite frankly I don't know why this isn't a more popular idea. It's good from a liberal perspective because it gets the conservatives to shut up about "handouts" while still helping people, and it's good for the conservatives because it's a way to eventually reduce welfare more realistically than just bitching about it non-stop. Everyone wins, yet nobody wants to do it.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: piasabird
Nothing wrong with helping people out. However, it often seems that church organizations are more effective than the government. I am more interested in programs that help people to be more self sufficient. In other words offer the poor a job no one else wants and if they show up they get paid. It is better if people have something to do. People that sit around in the projects with no jobs just tend to get involved in crime. If a person has some kind of a job, any job, they are busy and feel productive. It doesnt matter to me if they sweep a stretch of road or shovel snow or cut weeds, or work as crossing guards, or do odds and ends for large companies. People need some busy work to do.

Idle hands are the workshop of the Devil!

The church is good at solving this problem?

But I will agree, I'm WAY more in favor of job training or help finding jobs than just flat out handing people a check every week. The end goal of any welfare program should be to get people OFF the program. And quite frankly I don't know why this isn't a more popular idea. It's good from a liberal perspective because it gets the conservatives to shut up about "handouts" while still helping people, and it's good for the conservatives because it's a way to eventually reduce welfare more realistically than just bitching about it non-stop. Everyone wins, yet nobody wants to do it.

Universal healthcare wouldn't be giving checks out each week though.
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
Just for grins, here is, straight from the Communist Manifesto, what Socialism stands for:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

Pretty sad that some of these are already in place in our nation . . .
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,720
6,201
126
Originally posted by: eleison
Originally posted by: FlashG
Slightly changing OP?s post

1. Person works hard, plays by the rules, makes money and can pee in a cup.
2. Person does not work hard and can?t pee in a cup.
3. Socialist takes money from #1 and gives to #2, in exchange for continued political/economic power.
4. Time passes and person # 1 says shens sits on his ass and buys in to person # 2?s philosophy.
5. Country goes to hell

Person #1 who does a good job playing by the rules, makes money, etc.. is probably pretty smart. So when he decides he wants to be lazy, he's going to be pretty good being lazy.. probably hes going to be better at being lazy then the original lazy person.

Laziness FTW!!! then we can become like france and have huge unemployment!!!

This has got to be the dumbest think I've ever heard. Who the f@ck pees in a cup.
 

ManSnake

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
4,749
1
0
Yeah why should the rich pay so much taxes to support the poor? It's so not fair!!! Even though I make less than $30k/yr currently, I believe I will be lucky one day and hit it big and I will have millions of dollars. When that day comes, I sure as heck don't want to pay so much taxes. Socialism sucks!!!
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford

I am NOT saying we can't live without government imposed systems, I'm saying society as a whole functions better with them.

So we are better off with millions of uneducated people pouring out of the public school *cough* prison system? We are better off with a draft system where people's sons can be shipped off to foreign lands, only to come back in body bags? We are better off with an 'entitlement' system that is technically bankrupt? We are better off wasting trillions of dollars on the war in Iraq? We are better off with hundreds upon hundreds of nuclear weapons that could be launched in mass human extinction? We are better off with a tax system that has literally set technological innovation back centuries? We are better off with roads where 50,000 people die in auto accidents every year? We are better off with prison systems literally choke full of people who did nothing more than either smoke or sell weed?

Your statement is so effing absurd, it is absolutely stunning every time I hear people like you say something like that. Government imposed systems are a scourge of humanity and not you or any of your socialist bretheren has ever shown a single shred of evidence that there has ever in the history of humanity been a state that was actually good in any sense of the word. Every single one has murdered, conquered, destroyed and robbed. While no socialist or anyone else for that matter has ever shown me a good state from history, you and your ilk somehow believe that we have finally done it! We have finally pulled the wisest of sages, the most benelovent and honorable men from society who have been so kind as to rule us! How did this miracle actually occur?? Oh wait, I think we may have been fooled again...

Your egotistical "free thinker" bullshit aside, I think the problem with your ideology is that you are too busy living in a fantasy world to be realistic. I don't LIKE government intrusion, but the difference between people like me and people like you is that I'm willing to put up with things I don't like because I realize the world is a better place because of it. Your problem is that you think because you don't like something, that everyone would be better off it if was gone. To use a simple analogy, I don't like speed limits, but I realize the mess we'd have on the roads if we didn't have them.

You are willing to send your tax dollars to murderers. Muderers with a capital M. This is not simply a matter of government intrusion, so let me repeat myself: you are sending your money to cold blooded killers and torturers. You, like many others, are so smug and cozy in your socialist fantasies that you seem to forget that you are literally financing murder and torture. So no, unlike you, I am not willing to put up with financing murder and torture. People like you think it's just fine as long as the state keeps pumping money into your beloved social welfare programs. You know, just as long as the bodies of those killed don't show up on your doorstep.

That is actually a pretty good analogy for my point. If I'm driving through the middle of nowhere in Utah, I can drive (and have driven) pretty much any speed I want to that my car can physically handle. The only consideration for me is my own personal safety and how fast I can get to my destination. But in my daily commute, since I live and work in the extremely crowded Baltimore/Washington metro area, driving like that would be dangerous to me and everyone around me.

If it is a danger to you and everyone around you, why would you need a politician and a cop with with a tin badge and a gun to tell you not to drive fast in a heavily congested area? You wouldn't be able to do crazy things in anarchy with no consequences. In fact, in anarchy, there would be nothing but the most severe consequences for your actions, because punishment would come about unhindered by any bureaucracy. Criminals would literally be swinging from the trees.

There is a reason anarchy has always been popular on the "frontier", it's because there is enough land and resources and everything else, and few enough people, that doing your own thing tends to work out pretty well. That is not so true in modern society, where working together becomes a necessity rather than just a burden.

The irony is that the big cities have now practically become what the movies inaccurately depicted the wild west to be, replete with roving gangs. People are now leaving the big cities in droves, and if it weren't for immigrants just off the boat, they would have already been majorly depopulated.

Your point about leaving the country is true enough, because that IS the only option left. You want complete freedom to do whatever you like at all times, move to some undeveloped part of the world and do your thing there...I imagine it would work pretty well. But the idea of being able to transform a country with 300 million people into "everyone for himself" is silly. It's an appealing fantasy, which might explain why your group isn't as small as you might think, but it's not real tuned in to reality.

Yes, I do want complete freedom to do whatever I want at all times, and that is what I want for everyone else. You live a life based on an illusion of control. You think that the state will protect you from people doing whatever they want(gasp). But this is nonesense. People are already doing what they want, the unfortunate thing though, is that they have decided to cannablize each other with the state. You can't control them now, and you never will, and playing by the rules won't change their behavior in any event. Playing by the rules is actually the worst strategy you can use.

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,823
49,521
136
Originally posted by: Dissipate
*cut*

You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. I believe you are either very young, or very ignorant.

Public schools might not educate people up to your standards, but the vast vast majority have the skills necessary to hold down a job, which was in fact the whole point of them. Mob justice isn't justice, it's just a different form of tyrrany. Modern economies are based upon a significant amount of liquidity in capital which would be completely impossible in an anarchistic system which means that we would be faced with a catastrophic recession if we signed on to your plan.

Of course leaders are corrupt, and in some ways people are fools to believe in their benevolence. It is orders of magnitude more foolish however to believe that an every man for himself world would be better, thus trusting in the benevolence of everyone around you.

That is, for the 15 minutes or so an anarchistic system would exist before a strongman crushed everyone under his bootheel.

EDIT: I can't spell
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Dissipate
*cut*

You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. I believe you are either very young, or very ignorant.

Public schools might not educate people up to your standards, but the vast vast majority have the skills necessary to hold down a job, which was in fact the whole point of them. Mob justice isn't justice, it's just a different form of tyrrany. Modern economies are based upon a significant amount of liquidity in capital which would be completely impossible in an anarchistic system which means that we would be faced with a catastrophic recession if we signed on to your plan.

Of course leaders are corrupt, and in some ways people are fools to believe in their benevolence. It is orders of magnitude more foolish however to believe that an every man for himself world would be better, thus trusting in the benevolence of everyone around you.

That is, for the 15 minutes or so an anarchistic system would exist before a strongman crushed everyone under his bootheel.

EDIT: I can't spell

Wow I agree
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Dissipate,
You said you were moving. When and where?

Some form of government has existed for all of recorded history. I don't like it, but it's how humans manage to get stuff done across large groups of people. As soon as work needed to be done and it wasn't because "I don't want to do that" (which probably took 5 minutes) people went to social hierarchies with binding consequences. There may be communes out somewhere where you can evade human nature, but that's in some cave somewhere I suppose.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
This dumb thread is still kicking?

It's the official Republicans are scared that the party is over thread. :laugh:

More like the offical "only Republicans deserve to make enough money to live/retire on" thread.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
This dumb thread is still kicking?

It's the official Republicans are scared that the party is over thread. :laugh:

More like the offical "only Republicans deserve to make enough money to live/retire on" thread.

No, more like "why do people think others should be forced by the gov't to take care of other's every 'want'" thread.
 
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