So you think the Honda CR-Z is a success?

[tortillasoup]

I hate the CR-Z, it's a stupid heavy pig with little utility, poor fuel economy, poor performance at an outrageous price. The car is like 300lbs shy of a Toyota Prius and is 200lbs HEAVIER than a Prius C which is a 5 door vehicle! I mean I loved the concept of the CR-Z but due to the excessive weight, the engine it's equipped with just isn't enough to make it a good CRX replacement. I mean they had the 2000-2006 Honda Insight two door hatchback, it was a hybrid and it weighed 1800lbs. Yes the Insight was aluminum but that wouldn't account for why the CR-Z weighs a full 900lbs more as the Aluminum F150 with significantly more material doesn't save more than 700lbs in switching to aluminum. Safety regulations aren't even a factor in the weight discrepancy because Mitsubishi released the new Mirage which weighs around 2000lbs and is also a 5 door hatchback, though albeit small.

 

[dbk]

haha I just re-read this and saw myself mentioning my now EX-GF oy vey... as to the topic.. After all these years, when I see a manual one in white - I get excite! I'm not surprised some calling it a "failure" - it probably is.. by a lot of standards.

 

[tweakmonkey]

Drove a cvt CRZ quite a bit and hated this car. And I'm a big Honda fan / or was prior to 2005 models or so.

I have a 1G Insight and it's almost as fast as the CRZ yet gets 60 mpg, I think it's more fun to drive, 800 lbs lighter and way better driving position/gauges/ergonomics. What I hate most about the CRZ is the bad visibility.

Crank up the performance to S2K levels while getting 50 MPG then we can talk.

Kind of a tall order since the S2000 only got ~20/28 mpg

 

[mmntech]

The engineering costs of doing that would be pointless unless Honda has something already built & ready to go. The Civic Si motor is the logical choice if they wanted to compete in the hot-hatch marketplace.

Plus the weight of the turbo & inter-cooler most likely negates the heaver SI motor.

True enough. Really all depends on what the final curb weight is with the 2.4L engine once you get the batteries out of there. The Golf GTI is packing a 2L with 16 more HP and quite a bit more torque. Though it would still be a bump up from the Fiesta ST.

 

[996GT2]

1989 CRX SI-R:
1.6L, 160 HP
Weight: ~2200 lbs

2013 CR-Z
1.5L, 112 HP + 14HP electirc motor
Weight: 2700 lbs

Great progress in those 24 years, huh?


If they just put in the 200HP K20 from the Civic Si or the 220HP K20 from the RSX-S, they would have an instant hit on their hands. But instead they make the CR-Z a slow hybrid that doesn't even get very good mpg compared to the Prius.

 

[NutBucket]

Hey, can't compare the '89 Si-R since that was never sold stateside!

 

[996GT2]

Hey, can't compare the '89 Si-R since that was never sold stateside!

The USDM CRXs with their "weak" 108 hp engines still have better power to weight ratio than the CR-Z. And they were made almost 25 years ago. How sad is that?

And the 70 HP CRX HF from the late 1980s and early 1990s was rated for around 44/49 MPG, vs. 36/39 for the hybrid CR-Z.


But seriously though, it seems like Honda is killing off all their fun cars.

Integra GSR/Type-R, Prelude, RSX-S, NSX, S2000...all gone. Even the Civic Si has lost its high-revving K20. Sad times.

 

[GTaudiophile]

I've seen max one on the road.

Honda/Acura has been on the FAILboat for a better part of a decade and I just don't know they are even financially viable these days. Talk about resting on laurels as your only hope for revenue.

 

[Sureshot324]

Honda should just a take team of their best engineers, lock them in a lab, and don't let them out until they can build a hybrid powertrain that can match the EPA numbers of a Prius. If you want to sell a hybrid, those EPA numbers mean everything. In the long term Honda is going to need good hybrid tech, but there's no point in even building a production car until they can at least get close to Prius numbers.

 

[NutBucket]

That's basically what they've done with the new Accord Hybrid. While it's not proven it is supposedly just as good as Toyota's.

When I first bought mine I very rarely saw another one. The last 6 months I see quite a few of them around. Still kinda nice to have a less common car.

And how can you compare EPA numbers from 20 years ago? They weren't inflated per se but you are comparing apples and oranges. My car might be rated 31/37 (6MT) but my lifetime average is just over 40. Other owners report better numbers but I don't hypermile or drive with the intention of saving gas.

 

[Drako]

But seriously though, it seems like Honda is killing off all their fun cars.

Welcome to 2010 -

Honda CEO Takeo Fukui decided it was time for the company to shift gears. Fukui decided the company needed to emphasize well-engineered vehicles most likely to reach a mass audience, instead of focusing on cars for the niche market.

 

[NutBucket]

Yet the CR-Z is one of the most niche vehicles they've ever come up with!

 

[tortillasoup]

1989 CRX SI-R:
1.6L, 160 HP
Weight: ~2200 lbs

2013 CR-Z
1.5L, 112 HP + 14HP electirc motor
Weight: 2700 lbs

Great progress in those 24 years, huh?


If they just put in the 200HP K20 from the Civic Si or the 220HP K20 from the RSX-S, they would have an instant hit on their hands. But instead they make the CR-Z a slow hybrid that doesn't even get very good mpg compared to the Prius.

If they put a K20 in the car, the car would get abysmal fuel economy and nobody would care about the vehicle except a few people. A 2700lb 200hp car is nothing to get excited about as Honda already has a car like that, it's called the Honda Civic Si. What the car needs is a diet, plain and simple.

And how can you compare EPA numbers from 20 years ago? They weren't inflated per se but you are comparing apples and oranges. My car might be rated 31/37 (6MT) but my lifetime average is just over 40. Other owners report better numbers but I don't hypermile or drive with the intention of saving gas.

FYI, when you go to fueleconomy.gov, the fuel economy numbers you see are already adjusted. So if you compare the adjusted fuel economy numbers of the CRX HF which is 41 city, 49 highway or the CRX Si numbers of 25 city 33 highway, the CR-Z is in the middle of the pack in terms of fuel economy. However due to its ridiculous weight, the CR-Z has the performance more like the HF with the fuel economy leaning towards the Si. As with a lot of Hondas and Toyotas, the car is capable of better real world fuel economy than the EPA numbers suggest so it actually makes it easier to compare the CRX with the CR-Z since they'll both get a bit better fuel economy in actual driving.

Honda would have been better off just modifying the 2000-2006 Insight rather than making that pig of a platform that is the CR-Z. They could have easily just made the Insight Si have aggressive looking features and the Insight HF continue on with its aerodynamic features.

 

[ChronoReverse]

That's basically what they've done with the new Accord Hybrid. While it's not proven it is supposedly just as good as Toyota's.

When I first bought mine I very rarely saw another one. The last 6 months I see quite a few of them around. Still kinda nice to have a less common car.

Do you own the new 2014 Accord Hybrid?

Do you get mileage anywhere close to the EPA and what kind of conditions (temperature particularly) do you drive it under?

I'm wondering if it really does get near Prius mileage while actually being an Accord when driving it. The Fusion Hybrid completely failed in real-life so it would be interesting if the new Honda system works.

 

[NutBucket]

I do not. I'm the one CR-Z defender in the thread as I have a strong dislike for having nothing to do with my left foot while driving

 

[Zor Prime]

There is a factory supercharger option for CR-Z's ... if someone feels like taking a few G's to their dealer.

 

[Remobz]

I do not. I'm the one CR-Z defender in the thread as I have a strong dislike for having nothing to do with my left foot while driving

Sorry I don't like it either. My friend has one and I drive it quite often.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

If they put a K20 in the car, the car would get abysmal fuel economy and nobody would care about the vehicle except a few people. A 2700lb 200hp car is nothing to get excited about as Honda already has a car like that, it's called the Honda Civic Si. What the car needs is a diet, plain and simple.

You do realize that by replacing all of the hybrid parts with just a K20 this car will weigh 200lbs less than it does in hybrid form?

Battery packs, electric engines, cables, wiring, circuit boards.....

 

[dbk]

Has anyone actually (wasted money) done such swap. Is it possible?

 

[NutBucket]

Yes. It has been done. You can buy a kit with the parts needed IIRC. And since hybrids are smog exempt in CA it's a win-win!

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Has anyone actually (wasted money) done such swap. Is it possible?

It's been done plenty of times - lots of custom work -

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/features/htup_1104_2010_honda_crz/viewall.html

 

[tortillasoup]

Yes. It has been done. You can buy a kit with the parts needed IIRC. And since hybrids are smog exempt in CA it's a win-win!

Not for long, however all hybrids will be subjected to is the OBD-II test, no more tail pipe test for 2000+ vehicles.

 

[NutBucket]

I just have trouble with the visual

 

[tortillasoup]

I just have trouble with the visual

Forgot to mention, they'll definitely still be doing the visual. But I'm sure you put enough engine covers there, they won't even bother to look as they're not allowed to disassemble the vehicle.

 

[NutBucket]

Hmm. I should just fabricate a huge cover for the entire engine bay. Problem solved! Although I once saw a guy inspecting under a car with a mirror. Definitely hardcore.