So you think the other camp didn't play dirty?

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ronnn
So now it is viral marketers that question the validity of the DT? I thought DT brought that on themselves by being a speculative site. The R600 will either be able to compete or not. Personally I would be surprised that amd bothered releasing the chip if it performed that poorly.

The best logic of all is that ati hires viral marketeers (have no proof, but I know), so the hidden cell of aeg types that got busted are now redeemed.

Why not let the ball fall in your court, and form an opinion of your own for a change???
So I'll ask you. What do you think of all viral marketers?

 

[ronnn]

appopin I was actually addressing the discussion created by the op, certainly not you specifically. Keys, I think viral marketing in the form of paid pr presenting their avatars as a general user who pays for hardware is wrong. This form of marketing detracts from the value of any user site. If someone here presents themselves as unbiased (normal fanboy behaviour) and actually is paid by ati - please out them.

 

[josh6079]

but AMD *needs* it now more then ever - when they are behind

Sure, they need it, but it's useless when there's a card that has as much of a performance lead as the G80 does against ATi's best. The benchmarks speak for themselves.

already they are undermining the "credibility" of DT and pointing at other sites to confuse the issue that r600 underperforms

Again, who's "they?" Can we have specific names? You say they're logged on but haven't told us who they are yet. Do you really know or are you making a logical conspiracy?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: josh6079

but AMD *needs* it now more then ever - when they are behind

Sure, they need it, but it's useless when there's a card that has as much of a performance lead as the G80 does against ATi's best. The benchmarks speak for themselves.

already they are undermining the "credibility" of DT and pointing at other sites to confuse the issue that r600 underperforms

Again, who's "they?" Can we have specific names? You say they're logged on but haven't told us who they are yet. Do you really know or are you making a logical conspiracy?

Well, if that is the case. Has anyone here had a problem with DailyTech and their reports in the past? If so, what was it. Be specific please and something we can all look at, such as a link to whatever it is.

@ ronnn: Thanks.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

yeah the viral marketeering wasnt that good, and this guys used it to benefit himself but at the end of the day

1) ethical? successful busines/benefitting ones self? rarely play nicely together.... you gotta be abit ruthless and push the boundrys if you want to go places. i garrantee all the worlds millionaires and billionaires didnt play by the moral and ethical rule book, no way.

2) well he is the owner of the site, i see no reason why he cant do as he wishes, if some people arent happy with it...they know where to go. unless they pay for his site to exist they realy dont have much say in the matter.

i dont pay to use this site, its a free site to anyone who is bothered to sign up, knowing that, i know im gonna meet some jackass', some unsavoury types, black guy avatars pushing free ipods, and shills pushing products, i expect that and take the necessary precautions...

yes we the customers and users of such sites (mostly free of charge let me remind you) can come out of this feeling used....but at the end of the day, they dont care about that, its made them some money (hopefully) and thats all that matters, that and looking after number one.

i think really we humans would jump on any oppertunity to benefit ourselves, most of the sharper tools in the box do it, and do it very well.....except of course the life of death moments when your actions could save a strangers life, it all switches around and you'll do nearly anything to help a fellow being out. unforntunately you cant do that on the internet, theres no physical connection between people so if they get hurt in the propaganda cross fire....well boo hoo, no one, especially the guy who just lined his pockets, is gonna lose any sleep.

thats how i see it..... ethics and morals usually dont fit into using ruthless tactics to get ahead, what some one does with the content on a site he personally owns is entirely up to him and i, as a non-paying member have zero right to question it. if i dont like it i either suck it up, or leave. its unfortunate, but thats life.

 

[CrystalBay]

It is pretty sh!tty, thank god Rys has integrity and is a total code monkey....

 

[rbV5]

more BS *half-quotes*

I replied directly to your comment, how is that BS? you think it was out of context? It was straight to your point.

NO hero worship

Who started the "bring back Rollo to AT" campaign again apoppin? hmmm.

The best logic of all is that ati hires viral marketeers (have no proof, but I know), so the hidden cell of aeg types that got busted are now redeemed

Yea, thats how it reads to me ronnn. see apoppin's thread I mentioned above...what was that...last week?

Again, who's "they?" Can we have specific names? You say they're logged on but haven't told us who they are yet. Do you really know or are you making a logical conspiracy?

Exactly, why not name names "if you know"? I'd like to know myself. I never knew of any group like AEG as a member of ATI'd beta testers. I'm not saying there wasn't, but I have access to private forums, discussions and ATI employees and I was not aware of any.

Did you get free stuff?

I'm a beta tester. I don't get free stuff and NDA's prevent beta testers from discussing or posting about unreleased tech. Its pretty much the opposite of viral marketing.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ronnn
appopin I was actually addressing the discussion created by the op, certainly not you specifically. Keys, I think viral marketing in the form of paid pr presenting their avatars as a general user who pays for hardware is wrong. This form of marketing detracts from the value of any user site. If someone here presents themselves as unbiased (normal fanboy behaviour) and actually is paid by ati - please out them.

thanks ... i get a little sensitive

my point was that it was *easy* to "out" Rollo
--he actually confessed

to present "formal charges" requires iron-clad proof - which may hurt 'others' - and may also bring serious consequences

isn't it good enought to *know* they are here -- and 'beware' ?

Again, who's "they?" Can we have specific names? You say they're logged on but haven't told us who they are yet. Do you really know or are you making a logical conspiracy?

i really *know* that AMD uses and has used - ATi included - Viral marketing to the tech forums.

they are always monitoring important forums

it is *huge* business

we actually influence their sales ... it is a direct cost to their bottom line to NOT have viral marketing ... since *everybody* targets "us" - "they" would be at a DISadvantage to NOT use it

sadly

i am acknowledging the reality of the situation

 

[ronnn]

It was easy to out Rollo, because b3d outed the existence of an aeg cell. Than John Reynolds outed Rollo on these forums (if I remember correctly). Now after all this for the writer of the blog to say poor aeg members and bad Dave Bauman without any proof, is a major self-serving rewriting of history.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ronnn
It was easy to out Rollo, because b3d outed the existence of an aeg cell. Than John Reynolds outed Rollo on these forums (if I remember correctly). Now after all this for the writer of the blog to say poor aeg members and bad Dave Bauman without any proof, is a major self-serving rewriting of history.

it just seems that Rollo 'blurted it out' ...

but i think he was made the 'scapegoat' ... so the other guys got off easily

and yeah, the writer of that blog IS self-serving ... *agreed*

but doesn't take away from the fact that ATi also employed Viral Marketing ... as AMD does today

 

[rbV5]

Wreckage posted the link to the thread earlier, but I didn't see Dave or Pete's posts discussed in this thread, so incase you missed it:

With regards to Johns comment as to PM's, I am unsure where he has got this from. I've commented in the past that I can see the AEG usernames PM statistics showing they sent more than one PM, however that is a function of vBulliten's Admin panel as anyone with vBulliten can attest to. Once Pete forwarded me the PM that he was approached with I could tell from that who the AEG username was and you can also find the other from the email domain.

Link

Thats what I hear from Dave, he already new about the group from two different sources, not from looking through PM's or from other parties. So, did Dave read anyone's PM's other than the one forwarded to him by Pete? it sure appears he didn't need to, and Pete commented: (see the link for his entire post)

....I don't know if Dave knew about AEG by name before my PM, but it wasn't hard to find them given the PM I received, and I don't think he needed to read anyone else's PMs to find AEG and the services they advertised. Thus the PM I willingly forwarded to Dave may be the only one he read and all that JR (apparently erroneously) thinks Dave read surreptitously.......

Link

I wasn't at B3D to see how the AEG affair played there, but I remember it well from here at AT, and it was ugly as I'm sure it was there. Just look how John's blog post has given a ball for some to run with in this thread.

It appears that reading a PM forwarded to him by another member may have turned into

He'd learned of its existence by reading through the personal messages of forum members

and then the OP evolved that revelation into

the site's owner actively perused people's private messages to ascertain their role as viral marketers and he then used that information against them publicly to the benefit of his preferred IHV and now employer

and then more posters follow with claims of AEG being a response to ATI's clandestine group, and poor Rollo being singled out while ATI was doing the exact same thing. Current AMD shills even logged onto the forums as we speak, and of course ATI employed viral marketing all along. Good grief :roll:

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: apoppin

but doesn't take away from the fact that ATi also employed Viral Marketing ... as AMD does today

I am not disagreeing with this, but I would like to see some proof of secret ati/amd cells or individuals that are operating on these forums. We do have proof of aeg and at least some of the people involved. To the op, is not Dave Bauman's fault that these people were sneaking around on his forum.

 

[Wreckage]

Well here's the way I see it.

Something suspicious and underhanded seems to have went on at B3D regarding all of this.

If not, I see no reason for B3D to refuse to have a discussion about it in an open forum. (Saying it's old news is just trying to sidestep the issue). They also keep adding their point of view to a locked thread.....that's all sorts of wrong.

As far as I know Rollo did not get banned for his involvement in AEG, but for his numerous fights with other members. (Although the Mod who did it could comment on that).

I'm sure we will get one wall of denial from those involved, especially from B3D as the truth could damage their site permanently.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: apoppin

but doesn't take away from the fact that ATi also employed Viral Marketing ... as AMD does today

I am not disagreeing with this, but I would like to see some proof of secret ati/amd cells or individuals that are operating on these forums. We do have proof of aeg and at least some of the people involved. To the op, is not Dave Bauman's fault that these people were sneaking around on his forum.

I would *also* like to see absolute *proof* - documented - of secret ati/amd cells or individuals that are operating on these forums
:Q

never gonna happen ... imo

they are entrenched and bound by an NDA that is ironclad

 

[Wreckage]

After doing some more reading, it's clear B3D has their own agenda. They have lost all credibility in my eyes. I'm sure any actual proof of corporate involvement will never surface as then lawyers would be involved.

I will consider any news, reviews, etc. suspect from there and just ignore it.

 

[ronnn]

Share your deep reading and thoughts about this than. My reading has shown me that 4 individuals were being paid by nvidia to promote nvidia and discredit ati. 3 of them were on b3d, which I must admit does discredit that forum somewhat, but did not seem to effect their excellent reviews that appear unbiased to me.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: ronnn
Share your deep reading and thoughts about this than. My reading has shown me that 4 individuals were being paid by nvidia to promote nvidia and discredit ati. 3 of them were on b3d, which I must admit does discredit that forum somewhat, but did not seem to effect their excellent reviews that appear unbiased to me.

Secondly, there was a growing sense in me that the site's owner was becoming more and more biased against one of the two major graphics vendors and that I defended his and the site's objectivity beyond the pale of. . .well. . . objective thought. This was undeniably manifested to me while editing the site's review of a new flagship graphics chip and its conclusion, which blasted the company for "wasting" die space for Shader Model 3.0 support. I was able to talk the owner into changing this conclusion's wording, but the bias continued to show in numerous forum posts.

That on top of the fact they are refusing to allow discussion on the issue. I read through some of the AEG thread over there and it's clear where that site stands.

 

[ronnn]

As it turned out SM 3.0 was not very useful until the next generation. Anyways this the words of the same blog. He needs to supply some proof. As I remember it, B3D was very supportive of the 6800 ultra. So here is the conclusion to the x800xt pe written by Bauman. Doesnt read like an unconditional endorsement to me.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: ronnn
Share your deep reading and thoughts about this than. My reading has shown me that 4 individuals were being paid by nvidia to promote nvidia and discredit ati. 3 of them were on b3d, which I must admit does discredit that forum somewhat, but did not seem to effect their excellent reviews that appear unbiased to me.

You'll find no evidence of Baumann's bias in his reviews. He was usually very careful to appear unbiased in reviews and articles (and in the case of the nv40 review where he did have a go at nvidia, he was persuaded (forced perhaps) by JR to edit the offending bits.

Even in the forums his bias was carefully disguised. Baumann was quite the master of weasel words and stacking arguments cleverly.

If you go look, you'll see what I mean - of course some have no interest in taking such a look...

As for the forum conduct, Baumann owned the site. It was within his power to cleanup (and keep clean) the forums - he failed to do that (there was a debate on the state of the forums in the forums and Baumann basically refused to do anything about the problem).

If Baumann ever tires of the graphics game I'm certain he would find instant employment as a political advisor/spinster. If it were possible for Shrub to be re-elected president I'm sure he could do worse than utilize Baumann's obvious skills.

 

[Matt2]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: apoppin

but doesn't take away from the fact that ATi also employed Viral Marketing ... as AMD does today

I am not disagreeing with this, but I would like to see some proof of secret ati/amd cells or individuals that are operating on these forums. We do have proof of aeg and at least some of the people involved. To the op, is not Dave Bauman's fault that these people were sneaking around on his forum.

If there was proof then they wouldnt be doing a very good job of being viral marketers.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: ronnn
... As it turned out SM 3.0 was not very useful until the next generation. Anyways this the words of the same blog. He needs to supply some proof. As I remember it, B3D was very supportive of the 6800 ultra ...

I have no proof for you there, but I dstinctly remember an incident in the forums just (about 1 day) before nv40 launched. I've tried to track the posts down, but while a lot of old posts and threads remain clearly some that weren't "popular with management" have gone missing.

Reverend was making disparaging remarks about FP16 and its place in the industry and how it would diminish in importance with nv3x being superceded. I made a post saying that quite the contrary, FP16 would become very useful to the industry and play a large role in shaping it (FP16 HDR which both nvidia and ATi support). Buamann entered the thread at that point and told me "I couldn't possibly know that".

 

[Dean]

Everyone has an agenda, everyone has a favorite and everyone wants to give themselves an advantage over the next guy.

I personally do not like Nvidia or ATI. Both are Billion Dollar money grubbing companies who want nothing more but rip their customers off and keep shareholders happy. As a consumer we are to educate ourselves on what we need by ourselves. I never cared for or trusted inflated benchmarks from Websites or the fanboys within them. I never could understand how someone can get so emotionally involved in a product, unless they profit from that emotion.

I have always been the type that goes for the best deal. I try to buy something where I will get the advantage over the Hardware Vendor and Retailer. If they tank and go under, someone else will replace them. I shed no tears for 3dfx, and if Nvidia and ATI goes belly up, I still will not shed tears.

Ethics can be bought, no corporation has ethics and anyone who spends countless hours promoting one and attacking the other, is either being paid, or just a complete buffoon. Every review you ever read online is basically viral marketing. All websites want to be in the good graces of the hardware vendor they like the best at any particular moment. I can name numerous examples over the years of review sites leaking information that they should never have known in the first place. They are all just puppets of corporate giants. They are used as viral marketeers.

 

[Wreckage]

It would seem B3D is more of an ATI site than Rage3D is.

 

[apoppin]

OMG ... you are just finding this out ?
:Q

where have you been ?



to be fair, i'd say they have a inclination to think more highly of ATi than nvida ...
--remember the "good old days" [for you] when the *reverse* was true here ?

 

[Gstanfor]

Beyond3D under Baumann was fanatic heaven. Even today there is still a huge pro-ATi / anti-nvidia slant there, but you have to remember the site started off as a 3dfx fan site. Frankly, the only reaon ATi gets so much love though is because they are the strongest nvidia competitor. If say Trident was the strongest competitor all the ex-3dfx'ers would be strongly pro-Trident - pro anyone so long as it isn't nvidia.

I notice the disparaging remarks Rys made about nv3x anisotropic filtering have been editted out of the G80 IQ article (whether it was him or someone else i'm not sure, but suspect it was Geo).

We'll see if they can shake off Baumann's distasteful legacy, there does seem to be a small group who would like to - it remains to be seen if they will prevail or not.