So Your Eyeing a Third Party Candidate This Time Around

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soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Wow did you seriously post that? Kind of left a few democrats off that list there didn't ya bub, Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter to be precise. I seem to recall an intervention that cost 49,000 American Servicemen their lives. Pretty sure Kennedy sent the first advisors there and Johnson escalated American involvement.

Actually it was Ike that sent the first advisors.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Granted and understood. Really more a criticism of the non trivial 9-10% of people and disturbingly high number of young people who are likely going to vote for him based on his simple platform of legalizing marijuana and other minor social changes.

THAT IS MINOR!!????!!!!! Where the hell have you been living for the past 3 decades? The drug war has been one of the most costly devastating disasters in world history. The amount of suffering, death and crime that it has spawned has only been matched by the amount of human freedom PERMANENTLY lost due to it. It is the reason that the our rights against illegal search and seizure have been nearly completely neutered.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
THAT IS MINOR!!????!!!!! Where the hell have you been living for the past 3 decades? The drug war has been one of the most costly devastating disasters in world history. The amount of suffering, death and crime that it has spawned has only been matched by the amount of human freedom PERMANENTLY lost due to it. It is the reason that the our rights against illegal search and seizure have been nearly completely neutered.
I'm highly for legalization of marijuana but it's not in my top 3 or 4 federal issues facing this country.

I'd put healthcare first and then the economy/wages, energy policy, education, race relations and infrastructure, and the Syria/Russia situation much higher than blanket forgiveness of marijuana.

But yes I do think it's important to stop the aggressive enforcement of marijuana, I just consider it minor compared to other issues we currently face and it's an issue that can be solved outside of federal intervention
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
I'm highly for legalization of marijuana but it's not in my top 3 or 4 federal issues facing this country.

The imprisonment of more than ten percent of the population for a crime with no victim is not a big problem to you?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/13/ap-impact-years-trillion-war-drugs-failed-meet-goals.html

— $121 billion to arrest more than 37 million nonviolent drug offenders, about 10 million of them for possession of marijuana. Studies show that jail time tends to increase drug abuse.
 
Reactions: KMFJD

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,281
9,365
146
Pretty sure Kennedy sent the first advisors there and Johnson escalated American involvement.
Despite your confidence in your grasp of modern American history, you are wrong. Dwight David Eisenhower sent the first troops err, advisers.

1955 President Eisenhower sends first military advisors to South Vietnam to train the South Vietnamese Army

1956 At French exit the US Military Assistance Advisor Group (MAAG) assumes full responsibility for training South Vietnamese forces

1959 First two Americans are killed during a Viet Minh guerillas strike at Bien Hoa

Since I'm not sure just how shaky your grasp of our history is, I'll include the fact that Kennedy ran for President in 1960 and, of course, wasn't inaugurated until 1961.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Granted and understood. Really more a criticism of the non trivial 9-10% of people and disturbingly high number of young people who are likely going to vote for him based on his simple platform of legalizing marijuana and other minor social changes.

What's annoying to me is the spoiler role he clearly is playing in this election when he'd be better off negotiating for inclusion of his policies by the winning camp rather than letting them die in the vine. Life ultimately is about working with other people.

The absolutely best way to get inclusion of sane policies from the winner is exactly to win a non-trivial 9-10% of the voters. Hell, really it's the only way.

As for 'minor social changes' I think you and I might quantify those changes differently. For example MJ legalization does little for me as I don't smoke and never would but it's still a good idea. Turning around our abysmal civil liberties violations is something that's hardly a 'minor social change.' If he accomplished absolutely nothing else by running except for getting the winner to reconsider their position on universal NSA spying on citizens that would be a HUGE win and it would be a win for every American. There's lots more but like I said I'm not trying to win your vote, but you should get beyond dated thinking about libertarian politics like "libertarians are just republicans who like drugs."
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Arms and nuclear proliferation is a concern especially when you're talking about small organizations that would like to cause serious harm to American interests. I can't comment on Assad. Isis at least with propaganda militarizes dissidents here to engage in terror either with small arms or with more sinister planning. Regardless these are just a few general arguments why Gary Johnsons foreign policy is very short sighted. Operatives overseas are very necessary as we don't live in isolation and our enemies are becoming harder and harder to find. Heck for reference the FBI just broke up a plot by 3 white supremacists essentially to blow up an apartment building holding African immigrants here. Under Gary Johnson I'm not sure he'd even keep the FBI around based on his rhetoric.

If you are worried about arms proliferation. Then the easiest way to deal with that is to stop sending over arms into war zones. You are arguing for intervention policy that has brought nothing but human catrastrophe and arms proliferation and mocking non-interventionalist policy that wont proliferate misery and weapons.

It makes no sense.
 

skull

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2000
2,209
327
126
I'm highly for legalization of marijuana but it's not in my top 3 or 4 federal issues facing this country.

I'd put healthcare first and then the economy/wages, energy policy, education, race relations and infrastructure, and the Syria/Russia situation much higher than blanket forgiveness of marijuana.

But yes I do think it's important to stop the aggressive enforcement of marijuana, I just consider it minor compared to other issues we currently face and it's an issue that can be solved outside of federal intervention

You put race relations before legalizing drugs? The drug war is the race relations problem.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
Gary Johnson is. He did an interview with the freakonomics podcast guys where he specifically described markedly reducing the size of the US military, and pulling CIA operatives and almost all US embassy staff overseas to just the amounts needed to specifically defend immediate US borders. I almost threw my phone down in disgust. With domestic terrorists the concern is their getting their hands on stuff that can cause mass terror like biological weapons , nuclear weapons, etc again it's individuals and organizations that would do this sort of thing and thst is a much harder thing to monitor. I'm not arguing that its a huge threat but rather that pretending these people don't exist is stupid and dangerous.

Again this is the same guy who said he would get rid of the US census bureau....

I don't see anything wrong with reducing the size of the US military, nor removing government-sponsored terrorists (the CIA) to prevent them from interfering with other sovereign nations. You keep mentioning nuclear weapons but don't seem to acknowledge that the United States has very little power to realistically stop nuclear proliferation. Again, North Korea and Pakistan (the former a "great ally" just a few decades ago). On an individual level, there's no chance. We can't even stop terrorist attacks on our own soil with the largest surveillance government we've ever had. The best way to stop those kinds of people is to not give them billions of dollars in arms and support.

Wow did you seriously post that? Kind of left a few democrats off that list there didn't ya bub, Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter to be precise. I seem to recall an intervention that cost 49,000 American Servicemen their lives. Pretty sure Kennedy sent the first advisors there and Johnson escalated American involvement.

I'm no partisan democrat, but Eisenhower's overthrowing of Mosaddegh (to help imperialistic interests of the UK) and Reagan's funding of Pakistan (including terrorist groups) are the most direct American causes behind the Middle East's perpetual cesspool that I'm aware of. Kennedy and Johnson were total shitbags when it came to Vietnam (although Eisenhower still started the long trend of intervention; one of the worst presidents we've ever had), but at least there is no Vietnamese terror threat in the world right now.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
If you are worried about arms proliferation. Then the easiest way to deal with that is to stop sending over arms into war zones. You are arguing for intervention policy that has brought nothing but human catrastrophe and arms proliferation and mocking non-interventionalist policy that wont proliferate misery and weapons.

It makes no sense.

To be honest I can't be exactly clear what I'm worried about. Mostly that it makes sense to.me to monitor dangerous groups overseas and use timely intervention as needed to avoid larger conflicts as needed. I'm not pro war or pro destruction in any sense. Perhaps that's why I look the other way at Obama's drone campaigns, which have a lot of deplorable features but seem to ultimately be brutally efficient and avoid unnecessary American loss of life.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,662
491
126
Still better than a pusher of Fracking, person who courts votes of war criminals, a taker of Banker/Prison Industrial Complex/Military Industrial Complex/Petroleum money
or an insane orange haired man...
Hillary "I'll do anything for big money" should truly be thankful that he is her republican opponent this go around and be praying that they don't nominate any reasonable candidate in 2020.


________________
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
What percentage are imprisoned under federal law?

I'm 100% in support of the legalization of all drugs, not just pot, and I recognize the impact of federal policy on state policy but the main offenders are states.

It appears to be a generational thing. The first tiny baby steps towards a sane drug policy came under Obama. Trump and Clinton have spent their lives in support of the war on drugs. If we had younger candidates we would make more strides to ending the insanity. Clinton has made noises that she might reverse her entire past history of supporting the war on drugs, I simply don't believe her heart is in it and have grave doubts that she will do a damn thing.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
So more bombing, murder and mayhem courtesy of the United States. Yea this will turn out peachy keen...

We may not be the most evil nation to ever exist but we are doing our utmost to get into the running....

You think working with a sovereign nation to liberate one of their cities from a group of theocratic thieves, torturers, rapists, and murderers is an act of evil?

As a note, the people you say we are perpetrating evil on recently drowned about 50 people in their city for rising up against them and are executing anyone, including women and children, who attempt to flee their territory.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
You think working with a sovereign nation to liberate one of their cities from a group of theocratic thieves, torturers, rapists, and murderers is an act of evil?

As a note, the people you say we are perpetrating evil on recently drowned about 50 people in their city for rising up against them and are executing anyone, including women and children, who attempt to flee their territory.

Um right and when the kurds decide they want Mosul for themselves, you will have us bombing the Iraqi "sovereign nation" to protect the kurds. Round and round we go..... we can bomb and terrorize these people forever. We are so righteous and clean. Our superior technology proves it...

Iraqi Kurds are expected to play a crucial role in the battle of Mosul, which began on October 17 and is being led by Iraqi forces with some help from the U.S. While some worry about another betrayal, most still hope their reward will finally be independence—or at least greater sovereignty.
“The independence of Kurdistan is the right of our people,” Nechirvan Barzani, the Iraqi Kurdish regional prime minister, told Voice of America last summer. “We will decide the extent of our borders by what has been liberated.”

Looks like we are doing a bang-up job of planting the seeds real deep for a nice long civil war between the kurds and the Iraqi government.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
You think working with a sovereign nation to liberate one of their cities from a group of theocratic thieves, torturers, rapists, and murderers is an act of evil?

As a note, the people you say we are perpetrating evil on recently drowned about 50 people in their city for rising up against them and are executing anyone, including women and children, who attempt to flee their territory.

Wasn't rescue from torturers, rapists, and murderers the same rationale your side rejected for the Iraq invasion and deposing Saddam (not to mention the WMD issue that wasn't true that time and you're not even offering this time)?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Wasn't rescue from torturers, rapists, and murderers the same rationale your side rejected for the Iraq invasion and deposing Saddam (not to mention the WMD issue that wasn't true that time and you're not even offering this time)?

I would think that the standards for helping a nation liberate its own sovereign territory and the standards for invading a sovereign nation and deposing its government would be SLIGHTLY different. Wouldn't you?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I would think that the standards for helping a nation liberate its own sovereign territory and the standards for invading a sovereign nation and deposing its government would be SLIGHTLY different. Wouldn't you?

So how does Syria apply to your standard then?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Um right and when the kurds decide they want Mosul for themselves, you will have us bombing the Iraqi "sovereign nation" to protect the kurds. Round and round we go..... we can bomb and terrorize these people forever. We are so righteous and clean. Our superior technology proves it...

Huh? This is no way addresses my post. You said what we were doing was evil and I'm interested to hear why.

Looks like we are doing a bang-up job of planting the seeds real deep for a nice long civil war between the kurds and the Iraqi government.

If you think that our action right now is planting the seeds for a more robust Kurdish independence movement you have no idea what you're talking about. An independent Kurdistan had its seeds planted decades, if not centuries ago. The seeds for a modern independent Kurdistan are written into the current Iraqi Constitution by the Kirkuk status referendum clause. I've actually written several papers and done extensive research on Iraqi Kurdistan and the likely effects its increasing autonomy will have on Iraq, Iran, and Turkey in particular. Although these papers were all before the Syrian Civil War there's still a lot of instructive history behind them.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
I would think that the standards for helping a nation liberate its own sovereign territory and the standards for invading a sovereign nation and deposing its government would be SLIGHTLY different. Wouldn't you?

When the Iraqi government engages the Kurds, I hope you have the decency not to call for American intervention to stop it. It appears to be a virtual certainty at some point in the future.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Huh? This is no way addresses my post. You said what we were doing was evil and I'm interested to hear why.

Because we are removing the right of self-determination from people of the Middle East at the point of a gun when it has no bearing on our own self-interests. We do it simply because we have the power to do it. That is evil.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,098
126
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