Social Reproduction

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic
Don't know what the OP is talking about, but I started off poor. Not ghetto poor, but definitely qualifying-for-government-assistance poor. Not that way today. Wonder why? Moonie will tell you it was just luck.

That's about it but what would you say? You happened not to be born with Downs Syndrome, for example. You don't have fetal alcoholism. You were probably not sexually abused as a child or raised in a closet. You happened to have been born today instead of 40 thousand years ago. You happened not to have drowned at sea. Somewhere you developed a taste for money and went after it in a part of the world where there's opportunity you were lucky enough to be born in. There are doubtless millions of people all over the world living grinding lives with far more raw talent than you. And in Moonbeam's 'socialist world' you might have been Jesus Christ. But I'm glad to hear you have some money. People seem to put a lot of stock in that. I mean, who wouldn't choose money over being the universe?

 

[Moonbeam]

No attitude is'nt how you feel. I'd discribe it as putting forth the effort that makes your time worth paying for....things like education/hard work/loyalty/experiance are the signatures which few of these people have IMO. Why is that and how to fix that?

Reminds me of the miser who amassed a huge fortune over a focused life. The Angel of Death came for him. He pleaded for more time. Sorry said the Angel, time to go. Then may I have just a moment said the man to leave a note. The Angel agreed. The miser wrote: "For a million dinar I could not buy a single day. Know, Man, the value of your time."

All the success traits you list are reflections of things you value and your notion, our culture's notions, of what is success. They are a few of the external manifestations of self love. They are what some are able to retain of themselves from the concentration camp we all went through. But because the self contempt has infected us all they are all somewhat infected. We tend to love but only if loved back, give if we get, do if there is reward, aspire for the gratification of ego, etc etc etc. We do not know what it is to have rooted up and expelled our deeply buried and hidden self contempt. So what we call successful is a mess and what we see in the really really damaged is a total disaster.

Attitude is probably better not called a feeling so much as an expression of feeling. What you are reflects how you feel. But that is invisible if you don't know what you do feel. That is why attitude is hard to change. We are unconscious of what is driving it. So as with most everything else, the answer is consciousness and you can only change your own or at least that is the one that matters most for each of us.

But I have no doubt that the more consciousness you are raised with as a child the more conscious you will be as an adult on average. But we don't aim for consciousness in our children. We aim for success because we have no idea what either is. Consciousness is that which we crucify the moment we see ourselves in its mirror.

 

[cquark]

If you want to move upward in society, it would help to move to Europe (though not the UK).
From http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1469685,00.html

Researchers at the London School of Economics found that Britain appeared to have one of the worst records for social mobility in the developed world.
...
"The results show that social mobility in Britain is much lower than in other advanced countries and that it is declining."

The report focused on how education affected the life chances of British children compared with those in other countries. It put the UK and the US at the bottom of a social mobility league table of eight European and North American countries, with Norway at the top followed by Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany and Canada.

 

[cquark]

Ever stop to wonder why education costs so much? You guessed it: government intervention. For instance, I just finished up a math class with a guy who wants to be a high school math teacher. This guy has to take math classes that have absolutely nothing to do with what he will be teaching in class, and spend thousands of dollars getting a master's degree in education.

The only way that more teacher education would be the primary cause of education being expensive is if such requirements resulted in high teacher salaries, which they don't. As a side note, neither the federal nor the state government has imposed a prerequisite of having a master's degree to be a K-12 teacher. It's possible that certain school districts have done so, though I haven't heard of any.

With government out of education it would cost much less and teachers would probably be able to go through a 6 month program instead of a 6 year program. You don't need a damn master's degree to teach kids algebra and trigonometry.

While they don't need a master's degree, teachers do need considerably more than 6 months of training to do a decent job of teaching algebra and trigonometry. One of our current problems with K-12 math teachers is that they don't understand mathematics. We need them to have more training in mathematics, though perhaps less in education.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: cquark

Ever stop to wonder why education costs so much? You guessed it: government intervention. For instance, I just finished up a math class with a guy who wants to be a high school math teacher. This guy has to take math classes that have absolutely nothing to do with what he will be teaching in class, and spend thousands of dollars getting a master's degree in education.

The only way that more teacher education would be the primary cause of education being expensive is if such requirements resulted in high teacher salaries, which they don't.

Uh, yes they do, because they restrict the supply of eligible teachers. Basic economics.

As a side note, neither the federal nor the state government has imposed a prerequisite of having a master's degree to be a K-12 teacher. It's possible that certain school districts have done so, though I haven't heard of any.

I don't know where you live, but in order to be a teacher here in California you have to have a bachelor's and then you have to get a master's in education.

With government out of education it would cost much less and teachers would probably be able to go through a 6 month program instead of a 6 year program. You don't need a damn master's degree to teach kids algebra and trigonometry.

While they don't need a master's degree, teachers do need considerably more than 6 months of training to do a decent job of teaching algebra and trigonometry.

Why? These are basic subjects in math.

One of our current problems with K-12 math teachers is that they don't understand mathematics.

That is truly pathetic, and they ought to be fired.

We need them to have more training in mathematics, though perhaps less in education.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
That's about it but what would you say? You happened not to be born with Downs Syndrome, for example. You don't have fetal alcoholism. You were probably not sexually abused as a child or raised in a closet. You happened to have been born today instead of 40 thousand years ago. You happened not to have drowned at sea. Somewhere you developed a taste for money and went after it in a part of the world where there's opportunity you were lucky enough to be born in. There are doubtless millions of people all over the world living grinding lives with far more raw talent than you. And in Moonbeam's 'socialist world' you might have been Jesus Christ. But I'm glad to hear you have some money. People seem to put a lot of stock in that. I mean, who wouldn't choose money over being the universe?

Damn, I coulda just been a slug, eh?

I don't have a taste for money, I have a taste for efficient work. There's a difference. You are the one who has a taste for money... other people's money.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
That's about it but what would you say? You happened not to be born with Downs Syndrome, for example. You don't have fetal alcoholism. You were probably not sexually abused as a child or raised in a closet. You happened to have been born today instead of 40 thousand years ago. You happened not to have drowned at sea. Somewhere you developed a taste for money and went after it in a part of the world where there's opportunity you were lucky enough to be born in. There are doubtless millions of people all over the world living grinding lives with far more raw talent than you. And in Moonbeam's 'socialist world' you might have been Jesus Christ. But I'm glad to hear you have some money. People seem to put a lot of stock in that. I mean, who wouldn't choose money over being the universe?

Damn, I coulda just been a slug, eh?

I don't have a taste for money, I have a taste for efficient work. There's a difference. You are the one who has a taste for money... other people's money.

Why do you see the slug and not the universe? I'm sure it wouldn't be self hate.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Zebo

With government out of education it would cost much less and teachers would probably be able to go through a 6 month program instead of a 6 year program. You don't need a damn master's degree to teach kids algebra and trigonometry.

Theres some truth to that too. Everybody in every field, is trying to limit thier numbers to increase thier pay. One way is more and more education requirments.. To be an MD or a pharmacist used to be an appreticeship now 12 and 9 years expensive school respectivly. Can't blame them it's human nature. And it's also human nature from the customers prospective to want some standards codified. that's where we are.

The amount of material that a physician or pharmacist has to absorb is far far more than it used to be. I know that 6 years of pharmacy school is NOT to much. It used to be count, lick and stick. No more.

Computers are nice, but judgement requires education, and eventually experience. No amount of automation has been able to replace that.

 

[Zebo]

Are you a phamacist haya? <My brother is. He only has a BS from University of colorado i think..A long time ago. Anyway He says now it's a PharmD required which is usually 4 years with a science degree or something puls four after that and seems to think it's nothing more than a glorifed stock boy..albiet $52 an hour instead of $12. Nevertheless he says it used to be an apprenticship with much much more work back then because of formulating drugs which they rarley do today... so much for your " lick and stick." thoery I trust his opinion and came to the conclusion like all feilds, it's about restricing the numbers.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Are you a phamacist haya? <My brother is. He only has a BS from University of colorado i think..A long time ago. Anyway He says now it's a PharmD required which is usually 4 years with a science degree or something puls four after that and seems to think it's nothing more than a glorifed stock boy..albiet $52 an hour instead of $12. Nevertheless he says it used to be an apprenticship with much much more work back then because of formulating drugs which they rarley do today... so much for your " lick and stick." thoery I trust his opinion and came to the conclusion like all feilds, it's about restricing the numbers.

They used to do compounds a lot more, no doubt. What I was referring to is that the pharmacist of that era needed to know about physical incompatibilities, measurements and such. Pretty much a cook. There was no professional judgement in the theraputic sense, as in many states it was in fact illegal to tell the patient anything at all about their medication, and questioning a physicians rationale was unheard of. That's what's different.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Oh, yeah, my undergrad is pharmacy, which is what I do now. Unfortunately the PhD didn't pay as much, and ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: cquark

Ever stop to wonder why education costs so much? You guessed it: government intervention. For instance, I just finished up a math class with a guy who wants to be a high school math teacher. This guy has to take math classes that have absolutely nothing to do with what he will be teaching in class, and spend thousands of dollars getting a master's degree in education.

The only way that more teacher education would be the primary cause of education being expensive is if such requirements resulted in high teacher salaries, which they don't.

Uh, yes they do, because they restrict the supply of eligible teachers. Basic economics.

Real world economics is more complex than freshman economics, which is a good indication of why a teacher should understand more than what her students will know by the end of the course. If middle/grade school algebra is all a teacher knows, she won't know what its limits are, how it relates to the rest of mathematics, and how to apply it. A teacher of algebra/trig also needs to take linear algebra, calculus, a semester introduction to abstract algebras to understand what an algebra is and that there isn't just one, a semester introduction to higher geometry for the same reason, and a year of physics to learn how to apply the math. They also need some courses in education, as knowing the material is a necessary but not sufficient skill for teaching it.

Of course, teaching is not subject to basic economics for the reason you note above: government intervention. You mentioned the fact of government requirements, but ignored the reason for those requirements--government is the employer of most teachers, which prevents skilled teachers from getting paid what they would be worth in a free market (outside of a few that teach at elite private schools.)

I don't know where you live, but in order to be a teacher here in California you have to have a bachelor's and then you have to get a master's in education.

According to the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing web site, the only degree you need to become a teacher is a bachelor's degree. There is a continuing education requirement for renewal, as there is for most professions, but you don't have to get a master's degree.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Oh, yeah, my undergrad is pharmacy, which is what I do now. Unfortunately the PhD didn't pay as much, and ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

That's a common counter-example to the "basic economics" argument. In many fields, getting a PhD reduces people's salaries on average.

 

[Moonbeam]

I am going to compromise. I lean toward the notion that judgment cannot be guaranteed by training but cannot occur in a vacuum. I would therefore hope that the educational requirements for many professions which, like Zebo I believe are there to limit the number of professionals and increase the pay of those already in, also provides some practical training that produces judgment for those who have that talent.

 

[piasabird]

In the USA we do the best we can to provide every student with at least the minimum level of educational opportunity. For most that is Kindergarten through the 12th Grade. This is more than some countries do. What people choose to do with that opportunity is up to them. The results often depend on their parental care and the level that their parents choose to be involved in their education.

I have gone to both Parochrial schools and also public gradeschools in different places because my father was in the military and we moved around alot. My son also went to public school. You get out of the situation what you invest in it. I have seen lots of public school students go on to college. So you can not say that people are not given an opportunity to succeed.

The problem is that in some locations there is not an environment that is as friendly to students as it should be. If you grow up in a bad neighborhood you are subject to the type of environment that exists there. That is not exactly related to the education system. That has more to do with the neighborhood and the type of people you have to go to school with. A school can not completely overcome the environment it is placed in. This comes down to the environment of a neighborhood. This is of course is a reflection on the society of a specific location. In some areas parents get more involved and can read to a child and really help to keep a child on track in school, but some parents just dont care or are not well educated enough to help. The school still tries to help everyone, but the resources of a public school are not endless.

Students have to beleive that learning is good and that they can succeed. If they dont see that learning is good or have a bad attitude, then they may not succeed. In college especially, the student needs to have a will to succeed and a good attitude. The student must beleive that they can succeed. Sometimes people just see hopelessness and despair due to a lack of real role models. This can be a problem if everyone you know is lacking in education and good social skills.

There is a lot more to this subject than meets the eye.

There is a program available for educational opportunities for the poor and those people who have been laid off from their jobs. Anyone can fill out an application for federal student aid. If they come from a low income background they may qualify for thousands of dollars of free aid that does not need to be repaid from the State they live in and from the Federal Government.

Some aid available:
PELL Grant
SEOG Fed Grant
Junior Partnership Training Act helps pay for layed off workers to get retraining
Free or subsidised Child Care Help
Aid for Unwed Women

Also there are Scholarships and grants for people in different situations and also for jobs where there are more vacancies. There is a shortage projected in the nursing field so in many places there is even a lack of capacity to turn out trained nurses. Many locations have special aid for Women and for minority aid for disadvantaged people or groups. Then there is also the GI Bill and State Veterans grants for education.

I would not say there are no opportunities. There are plenty of opportunities, but you have to go after them and pursue them. However, it really helps to graduate from High School First. Even if you drop out of High School there are illiterate reading programs and also GED opportunities to go back and get your High School Equivelencies so you can be elligible for college or some kind of Vocational training.