Socialist Group Fights for $20/hr minnimum wage! Advertises for $13/hr Web Developer.

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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Nope. If there is no clear distinction between part-timers v. full-timers in said movements - shame on them. Because if it's just an outcry of "min wage for all", then it should not apply.

NYC has well defined salary rules and tiers for union workers (as per their agreements). I've done hundreds of payroll check for union members; part timers make less per hour than full timers - it's a known fact and practice, in NYC.

I would assume such core and pretty damn basic understandings were also present in the min wage movement(s). If not, then, well they need to shut up - because part timers should not be entitled to the same treatment as full timers.

Those are union guidelines. We are talking about min wage laws. Full timers do typically get more than part timers but that is always been above and beyond min wage. I think you know this but are just trying to defend the hypocrisy of the socialist party.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
0
0
The part time vs. full time distinction is stupid, but then again so is this thread. You see threads like this one every once in a while, "look at how hypocritical the socialists are, they call for an end to private property but own property, they call for an end to capitalism but hold jobs in the capitalist work force, they call for increased spending on homelessness but haven't given all their money to the homeless." This is yet another example of a failure to understand the difference between systemic solutions and individual actors because the people who make these argument, are, without exception, morons.

The socialist party does in fact call for a higher minimum wage. As was already pointed out, by purchasing power, during the heyday of the US economy, this minimum wage already existed when adjusted for inflation. Clearly it was manageable, and not just manageable, it existed in a time of unprecedented economic growth. The only thing that has changed since then, really, is that shareholder expectations have gone up to the point that labor no longer counts for much in economic terms, only ownership. This has been championed by calls for deregulation by the wealthy and everyone else in the Republican party (and to be fair, much of the Democrats), hereafter referred to as "Useful Idiots". Between these groups, the protections of workers and unions have resulted in a downward standard of living relative to overall economic prosperity. That restoring the US to an economic system comparable to the 1960's passes for socialism these days is in and of itself amusing, but that is beside the point.

The point, then, is what of the 13 an hour web developer when they call for 20? Well, quite obviously, they can't afford 20. "Aha", I hear you say, useful idiot that you are, "but this proves that minimum wages cost jobs and blah blah blah blah (please just fill in the rest of your inane and already disproven elsewhere by economists and actual data gathered after actual minimum wage hikes rant to spare me the trouble of typing it)." No, wrong. What this proves is that in the modern socioeconomic climate of incredibly loosely regulated global capitalism, money concentrates at money meaning the small, independent voices tend not to have a lot and giant actors tend to have more than they can spend. As deep in the right wing bubble as the useful idiots here are, even you had to notice companies like Apple hoarding giant sums of cash because they have literally nothing else to do with it.

What the minimum wage does is it forces some of the money that otherwise goes to Swiss bank accounts, corporate rainy day funds, and investment in giant companies that have enough money anyway and are just going to pay it out in bonuses back into the economy where it would do some actual good, stimulate some growth, allow people to afford to buy houses again, consume luxury goods, etc. It is often noted (whether correctly or not), that Henry Ford (commie that he was) figured out that it is good for business when people can afford to buy what you are selling.

If you find on their site that they want a 20 per hour minimum wage, except for political parties, then you can talk about hypocrisy. Saying they want to make a systematic change that would require they and everyone else pay 20 an hour while they are only paying 13 and hour now under the current system is not hypocrisy because the proposed change would hit them too. If there a mention in the article about them continuing to pay 13 after the minimum wage hike they are proposing? No? Then if you called hypocrisy, you too are a useful idiot.

Bringing this full circle, what this not even really socialist party wants is to change the minimum wage so that, among other things, they can afford to pay 20 per hour. By raising the minimum wage, it keeps money in circulation where money is actually spent which would fuel their own coffers by raising revenue across the board by encouraging spending by the spending class, which would allow them to pay more than what they can pay now. If it turns out a minimum wage increase does not increase their funds available, and they can't afford to pay more, they they would have to do without their web developer under the letter of their own law, which, again, nothing on their site says they should be exempt from.

But perhaps I am too harsh; please, useful idiots, tell me more about how the left are hypocrites for claiming their tax refunds while thinking the rich should pay higher taxes.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
What the minimum wage does is it forces some of the money that otherwise goes to Swiss bank accounts, corporate rainy day funds, and investment in giant companies that have enough money anyway and are just going to pay it out in bonuses back into the economy where it would do some actual good, stimulate some growth, allow people to afford to buy houses again, consume luxury goods, etc. It is often noted (whether correctly or not), that Henry Ford (commie that he was) figured out that it is good for business when people can afford to buy what you are selling.

If that were even remotely true there would be huge jumps in GDP every time we have upped the minimum wage but that hasn't happened. Not even small ones. It is nothing more than income redistribution with a net effect of zero on the economy. If fact min wage workers have a higher tendency to spend on items that sends a good chunk overseas, so what is the benefit on the economy then?
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
0
0
If that were even remotely true there would be huge jumps in GDP every time we have upped the minimum wage but that hasn't happened. Not even small ones. It is nothing more than income redistribution with a net effect of zero on the economy. If fact min wage workers have a higher tendency to spend on items that sends a good chunk overseas, so what is the benefit on the economy then?

As opposed to going to investors who either don't spend the money at all or invest a huge chunk overseas? The good in that case is what goes to the merchant. That the manufacturer is overseas is perhaps unfortunate from the perspective of the American economy, but unless the seller is overseas as well which is usually not the case for low to middle income workers, there is still net benefit.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,592
7,673
136
Aww poor baby, couldn't get the thread locked before further painting yourself in a corner? Too bad.


And you are "our" Dumb McOwned? (Anyway, I'm not part of any "our" with you.)

You might find hard to fathom but It wasn't the politics of the topic the reason I said that.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Yea, free houses for everyone.

Yeah, and? Pointless comment is pointless comment?

A source for the claim was asked for and I provided it. I have no idea as to the point of your comment.

If you have a issue with the 2012 party platform of a miniscule American political party with no actual relevance then perhaps you should take it up with them.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Yeah, and? Pointless comment is pointless comment?

A source for the claim was asked for and I provided it. I have no idea as to the point of your comment.

If you have a issue with the 2012 party platform of a miniscule American political party with no actual relevance then perhaps you should take it up with them.

A little touchy? And ya, my issue was with their platform.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
The point, then, is what of the 13 an hour web developer when they call for 20? Well, quite obviously, they can't afford 20. "Aha", I hear you say, useful idiot that you are, "but this proves that minimum wages cost jobs and blah blah blah blah (please just fill in the rest of your inane and already disproven elsewhere by economists and actual data gathered after actual minimum wage hikes rant to spare me the trouble of typing it)." No, wrong. What this proves is that in the modern socioeconomic climate of incredibly loosely regulated global capitalism, money concentrates at money meaning the small, independent voices tend not to have a lot and giant actors tend to have more than they can spend. As deep in the right wing bubble as the useful idiots here are, even you had to notice companies like Apple hoarding giant sums of cash because they have literally nothing else to do with it.

Sometimes, it's just so offensive that anyone disagree with you that you have to refer to every last one of them as "useful idiots".

But anyway, what does hoarding mean? That they're doing something with the money they rightfully and legally earned of which you disapprove?

Tell you what. You produce a gadget that changes the world of communication. Go and tell every person who voluntarily and enthusiastically purchased any i-device that their money would've been better given to you in your magnanimity. Then you can do whatever you want with your billions. How's that?
 
Last edited:
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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A little touchy? And ya, my issue was with their platform.

Not touchy, just pointing out that you comment was meaningless and, if you have an issue with this little group, you should talk to them, not me. I know nothing about these people and don't particularly care to.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
FWIW, pointing out hypocrisy is the easiest argument and doesn't change the person's point. It is good for a laugh, but its sad to see adults use it so often as some kind of penultimate debate ender. Like Gore and his jet, which has nothing to do with if global warming is true or not. You'd think people would move past gradeschool arguments.

Was good for a laugh though.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Not touchy, just pointing out that you comment was meaningless and, if you have an issue with this little group, you should talk to them, not me. I know nothing about these people and don't particularly care to.

And you know what's further pointless is that all this relates to the US and you are a Canadian.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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And you know what's further pointless is that all this relates to the US and you are a Canadian.

And you know what's even more pointless? Your continual harping on that point.

Maybe you need to find yourself a nice little American only forum somewhere if you don't like dealing with the international membership of an international internet forum.

The world is a big place and a large number of it's inhabitants happen to be curious folks with interests and opinions on things other than their own back yard. Deal with it.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
0
0
Sometimes, it's just so offensive that anyone disagree with you that you have to refer to every last one of them as "useful idiots".
Nope, not all of them, but the ones that fail basic logic and reading comprehension, such as:

But anyway, what does hoarding mean? That they're doing something with the money they rightfully and legally earned of which you disapprove?
It means not spending it. This is basic English. Whether what they were doing is legal was never mentioned, nor is it relevant to the topic of whether it is good for the economy. Neither was whether they rightfully earned it, because again, not relevant to the topic under discussion.

Tell you what. You produce a gadget that changes the world of communication. Go and tell every person who voluntarily and enthusiastically purchased any i-device that their money would've been better given to you in your magnanimity. Then you can do whatever you want with your billions. How's that?
How's that? Well, that would be a red herring. A painfully stupid red herring at that. None of this has anything to do with the minimum wage nor whether a person who under the current pay system pays less than a minimum wage they propose for a hypothetical system is hypocritical. Nobody said Apple doesn't have a right under the current system to do what they are doing, nobody even said it wasn't in there best interests, hell, nobody even said Apple didn't earn the money it made or that it didn't deserve it. They were merely held up as an example of a company that has taken money out of the economy because they have chosen not to pay the money back in in the forms of wages or purchases or even investment, nothing more.

I assume you are attempting to derail the topic because while your ideology compels you to disagree, you can't actually come up with anything cogent to add in refutation, yes?
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,685
7,186
136
So given Unokitty's helpful post, we can all agree that the $13/hr offering was a base line intended for the typical student/intern with minimal experience and the "or negotiable depending on experience" part meant for the folks with more experience than that, right?

So the OP title is then rather misleading, isn't it?

Just say'in because that little factoid seems to be conveniently ignored so far.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,431
3,537
126
So given Unokitty's helpful post, we can all agree that the $13/hr offering was a base line intended for the typical student/intern with minimal experience and the "or negotiable depending on experience" part meant for the folks with more experience than that, right?

So the OP title is then rather misleading, isn't it?

Just say'in because that little factoid seems to be conveniently ignored so far.

Why would that matter? If they want $20/hr for the minimum wage then all discussions on whether this is a part time job or for someone with minimal skills is irrelevant because any job would need to start at &$20 regardless of hours or skills
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
haha, not surprising, lefties generally go with "do as I say, not as I do". I'm sure our resident leftists will be here soon with some sort of mental gymnastics to explain why it makes perfect sense.

The only explanation that is needed is that its still legal to do so. Kind of like how the people who were railing against the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act were filing applications for some of that money when the Act was signed into law.

LOL
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
And you know what's even more pointless? Your continual harping on that point.

Maybe you need to find yourself a nice little American only forum somewhere if you don't like dealing with the international membership of an international internet forum.

The world is a big place and a large number of it's inhabitants happen to be curious folks with interests and opinions on things other than their own back yard. Deal with it.

No, I think it speaks volumes. It also speaks volumes how pissed you got over a comment I made about the Socialist's Party platform. I wasn't even addressing any comment you made directly.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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No, I think it speaks volumes. It also speaks volumes how pissed you got over a comment I made about the Socialist's Party platform.

Pissed me off? You think that pissed me off?

Ok, that made me laugh. I suppose that there must be some way that you could piss me off but right now I can't think of any.

I wasn't even addressing any comment you made directly.

Then why post it in a reply to my post?
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Pissed me off? You think that pissed me off?

Ok, that made me laugh. I suppose that there must be some way that you could piss me off but right now I can't think of any.



Then why post it in a reply to my post?

You think it might have had something to do with the socialist party platform you quoted and nothing to do with what you said seeing as how you didn't even put an opinion in there? Maybe you are losing something in the English to Canadian translation.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
You think it might have had something to do with the socialist party platform you quoted and nothing to do with what you said seeing as how you didn't even put an opinion in there? Maybe you are losing something in the English to Canadian translation.

Let 's try and make this easy for you.

1) person asks for confirmation of a claim made in thread.

2) I look up the answer and post the relevant information directly from source, making no comment due to a comment not being needed as this is simply supplying direct information.

3) Matt turns up and posts meaningless, out of context comment as a reply to my posting of said information.

4) I point out meaningless comment is meaningless.

5) Matt goes anti-Canadian for the umpteenth time and makes a fool of himself which he continues to do.

Are we having fun yet?
 
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