Soft9700 confusion - A case study

zurich

Junior Member
Apr 16, 2003
2
0
0
Okay, so my buddy and I are NVIDIA fans, but I hear of the soft9700 hack for R9500 cards.

So he orders a Sapphire Radeon 9500 Pro OEM from PCCanada.com (plug).

He replaces his old GF3Ti 200 with it, installs the Catalyst 3.0 December drivers, installs Riva Tuner, performs the power user script hack, points it to the file, "patches successfully", and restarts. Upon loading up windows, XP now detects a "Radeon 9700 series" card. Haven't run any benchmarks yet, but the thing (Athlon XP 1700+) flies in games at 1280x1024 w/4x AA and 8x aniso.

But now I'm reading these posts saying the software hack is only for r9500 non-pro cards... what gives? His system is stable, fast, and windows says its a 9700.

What to do? Unhack it, run benchmarks, hack it, compare benchmarks? It says right on the Riva Tuner webpage that it enables the 256bit memory bus on Radeon 9500 Pro cards.

Where's the evidence to the contrary?
 

mof0

Junior Member
Apr 16, 2003
4
0
0
I have a "built by ATI" 9500pro and I looked long and hard into this subject and just so you know, you cannot change anything about the hardware specs on a 95-pro.
No memory bus -nothing. Windows will recognize it as a 97 - but nothing has changed.

The benefit of this though is that by soft-modding your 95-pro you are able to overclock the thing finally. F.Y.I. - there is a lot of headroom in this card.

So no harm no foul. Overclock wisely!
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,171
13
81
I'm pretty sure it does NOT say that it enables the 256bit memory bus on Radeon 9500 Pro cards. The Soft9700 patch has NOTHING to do with the memory path size. All it does is unlock the unused pipelines on the 9500 NON-PROcards. What the RivaTuner site DOES say is:

this SoftR9700 patch script can turn any 128-bit R9500 into 9500PRO and any 256-bit R9500 into R9700

 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
ANY Radeon 9500 Pro card does not, I repeat, does not posess a 256 bit memory bus. There is no hack to enable it because it does not exist on these 9500 Pro cards.
Whether it is a Sapphire, Visiontek, Built by ATI or any other OEM 9500 Pro reseller. The pros do not have the 256 bit memory bus, just 128 bit.

The hack you are referring to is for the 9500 NON PRO cards that were built on the 9700 PCB. For visual identification, the memory chips are located two above, and two to the right
of the R300 core. This would indicate an existing 256 bit memory bus. Cards that have the four memory chips in a straight row above the R300 core do not posess the 256 bit bus. Those are 128 bit. The hack you are referring to is for the 9500 non pro that was built on the 9700 PCB strictly to enable the 4 "sleeping pipelines in the R300 core". The 9500 non pro built on the 9700 PCB comes with the R300 core with 8 pipelines, but only 4 are enabled. The hack attempts to wake up the other 4 pipes.

KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS IS NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL AND SOME PEOPLE HAVE HAD SEVERE ARTIFACTING AND TEARING DUE TO THE AWAKENED PIPLINES NOT BEING UP TO PAR..

Didn't mean to yell Just wanted to make sure you understood the risks.

Keys
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Yes Sir Mr. Creig Sir.
I have heard and read reports of major artifacts and tearing after attempting the mod. Now I would call that an unusable card so the word destroyed is just as good as any, wouldn't you? Might as well call it a paper weight.

Keys
 

mindfire

Junior Member
Mar 17, 2003
19
0
0
To zurich
i must say that what i am goin to tell u is final so there is no arguing about it I myself have looked in the matter of the 9500-pro quite some time now.. just bought myself this card 3 days ago.. now.. u can only overclock the 9500-pro to speeds of the 9700-pro. u cant change the 128-bit interface the 9500-pro is at, thus, the only difference after u o/c your 9500-pro is gonna be that the 9700-pro has a 256-bit memmory bus and the 9500-pro doesnt. the good thing from all this is that there is a way to keep your 9500-pro overcklocked all the time and the comp can see it as a 9700-pro too. (its all possible when u flash your bios). detailed instructions on how this can be done are found here:

http://www.amdworld.co.uk/at951.htm

peace.
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,171
13
81
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Yes Sir Mr. Creig Sir.
I have heard and read reports of major artifacts and tearing after attempting the mod. Now I would call that an unusable card so the word destroyed is just as good as any, wouldn't you? Might as well call it a paper weight.

Keys


Well Mr. Keys sir, the whole point of the software mod is that it ISN'T PERMANENT! Software, not hardware. People who have artifacts and tearing can simply uninstall the mod and have a perfectly functioning 9500.

 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Originally posted by: Creig
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Yes Sir Mr. Creig Sir.
I have heard and read reports of major artifacts and tearing after attempting the mod. Now I would call that an unusable card so the word destroyed is just as good as any, wouldn't you? Might as well call it a paper weight.

Keys


Well Mr. Keys sir, the whole point of the software mod is that it ISN'T PERMANENT! Software, not hardware. People who have artifacts and tearing can simply uninstall the mod and have a perfectly functioning 9500.

I think you need to be in the "argument forum" under the category "itching to argue". Or, the "nit-pickers niche", or "nothing better to do".
If it is undoable, thats cool, but have YOU tried it? Do you own a 9500 non pro that you have modded or a least tried to?
Anyway, stop picking fights. It would be appreciated. I'm a 9500 pro owner and looked extensively into modding but found that I could not because of
reasons stated above. Now can we get back to helping the guy who started this thread? Or is it gonna be all about you.....

Keys
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,171
13
81
Look, I don't know what's with your "Yes Sir Mr. Creig Sir" attitude problem and I could really care less. You're yelling and screaming about people "DESTROYING" their cards with a software mod and it's just not true. Make sure your information is correct before passing it along next time.

Yes, I do have a 9500 non-pro. Yes, I did software mod it. Yes, I did un-mod and then re-mod it. And yes, I did answer Zurich's question when he asked "Where's the evidence to the contrary?" So chill.
 

zurich

Junior Member
Apr 16, 2003
2
0
0
Hmm, interesting. Well, I guess the 9500p still kicks the crapola out of the GF3 Ti200 heh. Now if only he could get TV out/mirroring to work
 

EdipisReks

Platinum Member
Sep 30, 2000
2,722
0
0
Originally posted by: zurich
Okay, so my buddy and I are NVIDIA fans, but I hear of the soft9700 hack for R9500 cards.

So he orders a Sapphire Radeon 9500 Pro OEM from PCCanada.com (plug).

He replaces his old GF3Ti 200 with it, installs the Catalyst 3.0 December drivers, installs Riva Tuner, performs the power user script hack, points it to the file, "patches successfully", and restarts. Upon loading up windows, XP now detects a "Radeon 9700 series" card. Haven't run any benchmarks yet, but the thing (Athlon XP 1700+) flies in games at 1280x1024 w/4x AA and 8x aniso.

But now I'm reading these posts saying the software hack is only for r9500 non-pro cards... what gives? His system is stable, fast, and windows says its a 9700.

What to do? Unhack it, run benchmarks, hack it, compare benchmarks? It says right on the Riva Tuner webpage that it enables the 256bit memory bus on Radeon 9500 Pro cards.

Where's the evidence to the contrary?

its detecting "Radeon 9700" series because the core is exactly the same as the radeon 9700. in this case, all the script hack is doing is turning a different driver path on.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Anyway,
I just ordered a Sapphire 9500 non-pro Red PCB configuration (memory at right angle like 9700 PCB) about 5 minutes ago.
I am going to try the mod when it comes in. Creig, my apologies, I didn't know you were that sensitive. Could you give me a link
as to where I can get the mod procedure and files? Much appreciated. Thanks,

Keys
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,171
13
81
And I didn't realize how self-important you are and that you know absolutely nothing about computers. I'll try to simplify my answers for you. The main RivaTuner site can be found here which is hosted at Guru3D and their support forums can be found here.
 

sambao21

Member
Feb 27, 2003
151
0
0
[L=]http://duhvoodooman.com/9500mod/9500mod_1.htm[/L]

check out that link, its very informative on the soft mod situation. And Creig, a 9500 pro does not have 128bit memory and won't ever have it. However a 9500np with L-shape memory will when the softmod works.
 

EdipisReks

Platinum Member
Sep 30, 2000
2,722
0
0
Originally posted by: sambao21
[L=]http://duhvoodooman.com/9500mod/9500mod_1.htm[/L]

check out that link, its very informative on the soft mod situation. And Creig, a 9500 pro does not have 128bit memory and won't ever have it. However a 9500np with L-shape memory will when the softmod works.

no, a 9500 Pro does have a 128 bit memory interface. what it doesn't have is a 256 Bit interface.
 

sambao21

Member
Feb 27, 2003
151
0
0
oops, thanks for the correction edipis, what you said is what i meant. and the 9500 will have 256bit mem and 8pipelines when successfully modded.
 

J5im8yo

Senior member
Nov 8, 2002
233
0
0
Hey, there is a point that I can clear. A software will never destroy a hardware, "however", a software can cause the hardware to alter and thus destroying it. So either way <--> yes softwares can destroy hardware or no it can't as I explained. I can download a program and overclock my 9700 Pro to 500mgz and burn it right? heheh

Also, for the 9500 Pro --> 9700/pro it is impossible for this mod to work. This is because they are built on different architecture 128 and 256bit memory bus. 9500 (np) some cards are detuned to 128bit and 256bit possible but locked. Now the script shows 9700 and will be 9700 Pro because that's what the script does but it isn't necessarily mean your card is running at 9700 speed. My 9700 Pro says 9800 and lol it is definitely not running at 9800 speed.

Yes, 9500 Pro at 4x aa and 8x af can still fly even with XP 1700+ because its an excellent card.

The best way to figure out if your card is running at 9700 speed is to download 3dmark03 and run the mutil fill-rate test.

9500 Pro expect around 1500-1800
9700 expect around 2000-2200
9700 Pro expect around 2300-2500 (2500 is theoritical for 9700 Pro)
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,171
13
81
Ok. Here are all the possible mods:



9500 NON-PRO 64 MEG - Can be modded to an unofficial 64 meg 9500 Pro. Since the chips are built on only one half of the board, the 64 meg NON-PRO is limited to a 128 bit memory path. However, the unused four pipelines can be enabled which gives you 8 pipelines on a 128 bit memory path. This is the same as the 9500 Pro, but with only 64 megs. It can then be overclocked to further enhance performance. Overclocking results can vary from board to board depending on how well the GPU tolerates overclocking and the speed rating of the memory chips.


9500 NON-PRO 128 MEG WITH "IN LINE" SHAPED MEMORY - The boards with the memory chips in a straight row above the GPU are built on the PCB that was specifically designed for the 9500. This board comes from the factory with 8 pipelines, only 4 of which are enabled. It also has only a 128 bit memory path and can be modded into an 8 pipeline 9500 Pro. Once the software mod patch to enable the four disabled pipelines has been applied you can then overclock the board. Overclocking results can vary from board to board depending on how well the GPU tolerates overclocking and the speed rating of the memory chips. No software can change the size of the 128 bit memory path as they are circuit traces imprinted into the boards themselves. The 128 bit boards do not contain the additional traces necessary for the 256 bit memory path that the 9700 moddable "L" shaped memory boards have.


9500 NON-PRO 128 MEG WITH "L" SHAPED MEMORY - The 9500 NON-PRO with the "L" shaped memory configuration consists of two chips above the GPU and two to the right hand side. This board also ships with four of its eight pipelines disabled, but has a 256 bit memory path compared to the "inline" memory boards 128 bits. Only this memory configuration is moddable into an 8 pipeline 256 bit memory path 9700 as it will be built on the PCB originally designed for the 9700. Once the software mod patch to enable the four disabled pipelines has been applied you can then overclock the board to 9700 speeds or above. Overclocking results can vary from board to board depending on how well the GPU tolerates overclocking and the speed rating of the memory chips. It is this unlocking of pipelines combined with a 256 bit memory path PLUS overclocking that has made this video card so popular.


9500 PRO 128 MEG - Cannot be pipeline modded. The 9500 PRO comes from the factory with all 8 pipelines enabled. And it's built on the 128 bit memory path PCB. Since this board already has 8 pipelines, all you can do to the 9500 PRO is overclock it. You can't mod it into anything else besides the FireGL X1. Overclocking results can vary from board to board depending on how well the GPU tolerates overclocking and the speed rating of the memory chips.


9700 NON-PRO 128 MEG - Cannot be pipeline modded. It comes enabled with 8 pipelines on a 256 bit memory path. However, it can be overclocked to 9700 PRO levels. Overclocking results can vary from board to board depending on how well the GPU tolerates overclocking and the speed rating of the memory chips.


9700 PRO 128 MEG - As above, the 9700 PRO cannot be pipeline modded. It comes enabled with 8 pipelines on a 256 bit memory path. However, it can be overclocked. Overclocking results can vary from board to board depending on how well the GPU tolerates overclocking and the speed rating of the memory chips.


PICTURES OF CARDS - At Digit-Life they have excellent pictures of the front and back of the 9500 NON-PRO 64MB, 9500 NON-PRO 128MB, 9500 PRO 128MB, 9700 128MB and 9700 PRO 128MB cards. Use them to help identify your card. The 9500 NON-PRO shown is the 9700 moddable card with the "L" shape memory configuration and a 256 bit memory path. A 9500 NON-PRO with the "inline" memory configuration will look identical to the 9500 PRO. This card has a 128 bit memory path and can only be modified into a 9500 PRO.


BOARD COLOR - The color of the board has no relevence whatsoever. It is the configuration of the memory chips in either the "inline" or "L" shapes. Although most "L" memory shaped boards were produced with a red PCB, I have seen pictures of black PCBs with the desirable "L" shaped memory.


DEFAULT SPECIFICATIONS:
9700 PRO 128MB - 325MHz core/620MHz memory, 2.8ns Samsung memory
9700 ULTRA 128MB - 297MHz core/540MHz memory, 3.3ns Infineon or 3.6ns Hynix memory
9700 128MB - 275MHz core/540MHz memory, 2.8ns Samsung or 3.3ns Infineon or 3.6ns Hynix memory
9700 GOLD 128MB - 275MHz core/540MHz memory, 3.3ns Infineon or 3.6ns Hynix memory
9700 TX 128MB - 263MHz core/540MHz memory, 3.6ns Hynix memory
9500 PRO 128MB - 275MHz core/540MHz memory, 3.3ns Infineon or 3.6ns Hynix memory
9500 NON-PRO 128MB - 275MHz core/540MHz memory, 3.3ns Infineon or 3.6ns Hynix memory
9500 NON-PRO 64MB - 275MHz core/540MHz memory, 3.3ns Infineon or 3.6ns Hynix memory


CHANCE OF SUCCESSFUL MOD - As with all mods/overclocking, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary). Some boards came with GPUs that had one or more faulty pipelines. These were most likely rejected 9700 GPUs. ATI disabled four of the pipelines and retested these rejected cores. If the faulty pipeline was one of the four disabled then the chip was used to make a 9500 NON-PRO. This was a good financial move for ATI as it allowed them to use cores that would have otherwise been tossed in the trash. However, the number of faulty cores that could still be reused was not enough to keep full production of 9500 NON-PRO cards. So ATI supplemented this with fully functional cores with 8 good pipelines and simply disabled four of them.

Unfortunately for us hardware fanatics, this means that the whole 9500 NON-PRO mod is a bit of a gamble. Since some have good cores and some have bad, there's no way to tell until you get it home and attempt it. Screen "checkerboarding" and "visual artifacts" were the two most common symptoms experienced with receiving a board with a bad pipelines. Before the software mod was available, people hardware modded the boards with the same "some good, some bad" results. This hardware mod does the exact same thing as the software mod. So a board with artifacts using the software mod will have the exact same problems if it were hard modded, and vice versa. I believe the success rate of finding a good moddable board was around 60%. Unfortunately, ATI has suspended production of the moddable version of the 9500 NON-PRO so supply of this board is definitely limited and getting more so every day.


THE MOD - There are two sources for the software to mod your card. The most popular one is called RivaTuner with their Soft9700 (or Soft9x00) patch. The nice thing about RivaTuner is that it also includes a GPU/memory overclocking utility. If you're going to turn on the unused pipelines of your board you might as well overclock it at the same time, eh? In actuality, their utility will allow you to mod your 9500 NON-Pro into a Radeon 9700, 9800 or a FireGL professional video editing board.

The other source is Wizzard's page. His files allow you to software mod your 9500 into a 9700/9800 but doesn't include any overclocking utility.

One thing to remember is that the 9700/9800 patch modifies the ati2mtag.sys file of the unpacked Catalyst driver. You unpack the Catalyst driver, cancel the install, patch the ati2mtag.sys file then install the Catalyst drivers. This means that if you want to update to a newer Catalyst driver you're going to have to repatch the ati2mtag.sys file. If you don't, the stock Catalyst drivers will overwrite this file with their version and you will be back to a regular card again. Some Catalyst driver updates may require a rewrite of the patch. Check the RivaTuner or Wizzard websites for more information before updating.


FIREGL X1/Z1 MOD - RivaTuner will also allow you to mod any 9500/9700 into a FireGL X1 or FireGL Z1 professional video editing board. The difference between the X1 and Z1 is that the X1 mod is for boards that have 8 functioning pipelines and the Z1 is for boards that have only 4 functioning pipelines. So a stock 9500 64mb board would use the Z1 mod, but a successfully modded 9500 64mb would now have 8 pipelines and would use the X1 mod. This also holds true for the 9500 NON-PRO. So even if you have a board that shows artifacts/checkerboarding with the pipeline mod, you can undo the mod and still successfully turn your board into a FireGL Z1.

Video editing apps will run much slower on 128 bit boards than on 256 bit equipped boards. Once again, 128 bit equipped boards are all 9500 64mb, "inline" memory 9500 NON-PROs and all 9500 PROs. 256 bit boards are all "L" memory equipped 9500 NON-PROs, all 9700s and all 9700 PROs. Speed will be further influenced by GPU/memory clock speeds so the faster you can run them, the quicker you will be done with your renderings.


WAS THE MOD SUCCESSFUL - The way to tell if the mod worked (besides benchmarking) is to go to your desktop. Right click and select "Properties", then click on the "Settings" tab and select "Advanced". Click on the "Adapter" tab and look down in "Adapter Information" for a line called "Chip Type". This is where it will display what type of card your computer is detecting. If it says 9700 or 9800 then the mod worked. If it still says 9500 then you might've missed a step somewhere.


OVERCLOCKING - Some manufacturers have installed a BIOS that prevents overclocking. You MAY have to flash your BIOS with one of a different manufacturer to allow overclocking. Please make sure that the BIOS you flash your card with is the correct one as there are different BIOS's for boards with different brands of memory chips. If you need more information on overclocking your card/flashing your BIOS, 3DChipset has all the files and information you'll need. They also have everything for overclocking/flashing Nvidia and Matrox cards as well.


REPLACING THE STOCK HEATSINK/FAN - The 9500/9700 boards have an interesting "shim" placed around the GPU core. I have not found any reason for this shim other than the fact that the heatsink/fan is so large that the shim acts as a stabilizer. It possibly prevents the heatsink/fan from pulling the mounting pins loose if too much pressure were applied to an outside corner. If the heatsink/fan or waterblock you intend to mount is as large or larger than the shim you will run into trouble.

This is because the shim actually sits HIGHER than the GPU core by a few millimeters. The reason ATI could get away with this is from the thick thermal interface material they use. It fills the gap between the heatsink and the GPU. For us hardware fanatics, however, this amount of gap is completely unacceptable. You want the heatsink in as close contact to the GPU as possible for optimum heat transfer. You will have to pry the shim off the board before installing your new heatsink/fan. This is not as scary as it sounds as many people have reported that it pops right off if you start prying on a corner of it. You may want to put the card in the freezer for a while first as this seems to make the adhesive brittle and even easier to remove. Needless to say removing this shim will void your warranty so be sure that you're ready to make this commitment to higher performance. A good guide with pictures can be seen at PC-Reviews. Remove/replace the stock ATI yellow thermal interface material (TIM) with a higher performing product such as Arctic Silver.


POWER SUPPLY RECOMMENDATION - As you may have guessed after seeing the floppy power connector on your card, these things use a LOT of juice. If you have a low output power supply or even a low quality high output power supply you could experience all sorts of problems that may be extremely hard to attribute to the power supply. Such as random rebooting, random Blue Screen of Death screens, other components seeming to fail, hard drives spinning up and down. A high quality power supply is a must in any system. I would say that with a 9500/9700 and a high-end CPU, you should be using at least a good quality 300 watt power supply, with 350 watts or higher the more components you have (hard drives, CD roms, DVD roms, fans, etc). A high quality unit could be considered an Antec, Enermax, Fortron Source, Vantec, Thermaltake or other manufacturer. Do a search of the forums and you will find other names as well. The most often recommended power supply seems to be Antec.


9800 MOD - This mod works exactly the same as the 9700 mod does except that it lets the card use several driver improvements that were intended for the 9800 card only. Its success rate is exactly the same as the 9700 mod as it depends on the hardware in the same way the 9700 mod does.



MY 9500 NON-PRO 128 MEG "L" MEMORY MOD RESULTS:

Koolance PC2-C Watercooled case w/waterblocks on CPU, GPU, chipset and HD.
Epox 8K5A3+
T-Bred A 1800+
512mb Crucial PC2100
ATI Radeon 9500 w/Infineon 3.3ns

R300
215R8ABGA13F
G25485.1
0243AA
TAIWAN

3DMark2001SE

1) Stock processor @ 1.53 GHz/stock card.... @ 275/540 =.. 9641 3DMarks
2) O/C processor... @ 1.83 GHz/stock card.... @ 275/540 = 10627 3DMarks
3) Stock processor @ 1.53 GHz/9700 update @ 275/540 = 11016 3DMarks
4) O/C processor... @ 1.83 GHz/9700 update @ 275/540 = 12716 3DMarks
5) O/C processor... @ 1.83 GHz/9700 update @ 325/600 = 13329 3DMarks
6) O/C processor... @ 2.00 Ghz/9700 update @ 380/600 = 14308 3DMarks

Fillrate 1) 927.9 single/1103.5 multi
Fillrate 2) 928.0 single/1103.4 multi
Fillrate 3) 1538.0 single/2163.4 multi
Fillrate 4) 1548.0 single/2173.5 multi
Fillrate 5) 1749.1 single/2538.2 multi
Fillrate 6) 1839.6 single/2938.2 multi



I hope this answers all the mod questions and clears up the confusion related to it.



 

DOOPYLOOPY

Senior member
Aug 11, 2000
312
0
0
*bump*
it fell off again I think a Mod should sticky it. It gets asked sooo much and seems to confuse a lot of people.
 

Armageddon415

Golden Member
Sep 24, 2000
1,608
0
0
Can the saphire 9500 non-pro with the black pcb and L-shaped ram be modified to 256bit and 8 pipelines? I know it can be done with the red pcb, but how bout the black one? Heres a pic of it pic
 

AgaBoogaBoo

Lifer
Feb 16, 2003
26,107
4
81
Will a Sapphire Atlantis 9700 non pro 128mb card overclock to pro speeds easily? How much of a chance is there that it won't make that level?
 
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