Software Engineering

[V3LCR0]

I am currently going to a junior college majoring in Software engineering.

My math right now is the only thing keeping me behind since some of my algebra is
weak. I am catching up, and i doubt this will cause any trouble with time.

How much math is really involved when it comes to dealing with software engineering? And what in your opinion is the tough part of being a software engineer?

Can being a software engineer mean that you could be outsourced easily?

I also heard that software engineering is going to be one of the fastest growing careers in the years to come.

I worked at a software company starting in February being an IT Technician, and got some experience with friends who are unix system admins and engineers.

The company was based of PHP, and i was in the process of learning php from my unix system admin buddy, but i recently was laid off due to the economy. I didn't get too far into php and some ruby, but they were both interesting.

Do you guys think this would be the best bet for me in the upcoming years? I am a dedicated person when it comes to computers, and i am always looking for a way to expand my knowledge.

Thanks for the help.

 

[slugg]

I'm not too sure. I'm a computer science major and I use math quite extensively, but it's a different degree.

I use a ton of discrete mathematics on a daily basis. You never know when calculus and trig can come into play, too. I don't use calc/trig on a daily basis, but it's not uncommon. Linear algebra has helped a little bit, too, but nothing super major, at least so far. Right now, I'm doing research in performance evaluation of video surveillance algorithms and I deal with basic statistics on a regular basis, plus (like I said earlier) a ton of discrete. Basically, any algorithm or process you write can be modeled using discrete math before you ever type a single line of code - and this is how we start reducing algorithms to be as fast/efficient as possible.

So yea, I would definitely say that there's a lot of math involved with software engineering, but I have no idea if there's a lot of math involved in YOUR curriculum.

Hope this helps somehow...

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: slugg
I'm not too sure. I'm a computer science major and I use math quite extensively, but it's a different degree.

I use a ton of discrete mathematics on a daily basis. You never know when calculus and trig can come into play, too. I don't use calc/trig on a daily basis, but it's not uncommon. Linear algebra has helped a little bit, too, but nothing super major, at least so far. Right now, I'm doing research in performance evaluation of video surveillance algorithms and I deal with basic statistics on a regular basis, plus (like I said earlier) a ton of discrete. Basically, any algorithm or process you write can be modeled using discrete math before you ever type a single line of code - and this is how we start reducing algorithms to be as fast/efficient as possible.

So yea, I would definitely say that there's a lot of math involved with software engineering, but I have no idea if there's a lot of math involved in YOUR curriculum.

Hope this helps somehow...

Well, that really depends on the area that you are working in. You have lots of math because you are dealing with a math intensive programs. However, I could see someone getting by with relativity little math if they go into something like designing billing systems for hospitals, or something like a patients medical database.

If you are planning on doing any research or sciencey sorts of stuff, then math will be pretty important. However, its possible to get by without it. (Im not saying that you should avoid learning math, Get as much as you can as it will ultimately open up many opportunities for you.)

 

[degibson]

Originally posted by: V3LCR0
I am currently going to a junior college majoring in Software engineering.

My math right now is the only thing keeping me behind since some of my algebra is
weak. I am catching up, and i doubt this will cause any trouble with time.

How much math is really involved when it comes to dealing with software engineering? And what in your opinion is the tough part of being a software engineer?

Like others have said, it varies based on what you do. But math is an important skillset to have, through differential equations certainly for a programmer. You'd be surprised the tricks you can do with them.

Can being a software engineer mean that you could be outsourced easily?

Depends on who you work for and how important you are. The key to being irreplaceable is to be irreplaceable -- develop skills or knowledge that nobody else at your organization has -- preferably nobody else in the world. The short answer is: yes.

I also heard that software engineering is going to be one of the fastest growing careers in the years to come.

I worked at a software company starting in February being an IT Technician, and got some experience with friends who are unix system admins and engineers.

The company was based of PHP, and i was in the process of learning php from my unix system admin buddy, but i recently was laid off due to the economy. I didn't get too far into php and some ruby, but they were both interesting.

Use your college years to educate yourself about the iron under the hood: C and C++. Play with ruby on the weekends if you want.

Do you guys think this would be the best bet for me in the upcoming years? I am a dedicated person when it comes to computers, and i am always looking for a way to expand my knowledge.

Thanks for the help.

I sometimes regret not becoming a farmer, or a lumberjack. Bear in mind that this career will have its share of problems: vitamin d deficiency, chronic back pain from bulging disks, if you're like my brother, you'll develop a hunchback walk. But you have to take the good with the bad -- do you want to write code? If so, BS SWeng is a good idea. There will be jobs, nobody knows if there will be lots of them, but there will be some.

 

[SearchMaster]

How much math is really involved when it comes to dealing with software engineering? And what in your opinion is the tough part of being a software engineer?

I've been a professional SE for 20 years. Math is natural for me, so it's hard for me to recall exactly when I "use" math, but I'll bet 95% of the math skills I learned in college have not been used since.

Can being a software engineer mean that you could be outsourced easily?

This is difficult to answer. It is very difficult to effectively manage offshore resources (this from experience). It's enticing because offshore resources have about 33% of the direct cost of local resources but there are indirect costs associated with managing them. My best answer here is the same you'd tell someone in any profession: if you're good, your career is safe. If you're not good, you should find something you are good at and do that instead.

I also heard that software engineering is going to be one of the fastest growing careers in the years to come.

See above - if you're good, you'll always be employable.

The company was based of PHP, and i was in the process of learning php from my unix system admin buddy, but i recently was laid off due to the economy. I didn't get too far into php and some ruby, but they were both interesting.

Do you guys think this would be the best bet for me in the upcoming years? I am a dedicated person when it comes to computers, and i am always looking for a way to expand my knowledge.

The language(s) you use is SO much less important than other skills. We're a VB.NET shop, and I've only once hired someone who had ever used VB.NET. He didn't work out and I had to let him go. Everyone else was productive within just a few days. With any language there are intricacies that you will need to learn but smart people learn quickly. People that are not as smart advertise themselves as PHP programmers, or .NET programmers, or COBOL programmers, etc.

Thanks for the help.

I hope I did

[/quote]

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: V3LCR0
I am currently going to a junior college majoring in Software engineering.

My math right now is the only thing keeping me behind since some of my algebra is
weak. I am catching up, and i doubt this will cause any trouble with time.

How much math is really involved when it comes to dealing with software engineering? And what in your opinion is the tough part of being a software engineer?

(For reference, I'm a freshman starting his second semester of a Computer Science undergrad major.)

In the projects I've done I have used basic arithmetic and algebra, and only very recently trigonometry/geometry. This isn't to say I've done the most advanced projects; I am sure much more advanced math is used elsewhere. I would think this advanced math is more of a niche though.

I don't think you even need to finish Calculus 1 to be declared quite competent at computer programming and language in general. Programming in my opinion is more related to strong logic and writing/semantics skills than it is math. Designing classes (inheritance/etc), UI, and error-checking is an art. Of course, having a math background may help you with logic, and with other projects that require more than basic math skills. I'd almost go as far today to say the CS major should be a bachelor of arts and not of science especially with all these complex, high-level languages coming out with so many ways to do things and only a couple ways to do them the best way. But it's more in between than anything else: there's certainly some science in what you're doing. I hope that people don't misinterpret what I'm saying and start putting words into my mouth about how I think math is not helpful for CS, etc, as that's certainly not what I think.

Can being a software engineer mean that you could be outsourced easily?

I also heard that software engineering is going to be one of the fastest growing careers in the years to come.

I worked at a software company starting in February being an IT Technician, and got some experience with friends who are unix system admins and engineers.

The company was based of PHP, and i was in the process of learning php from my unix system admin buddy, but i recently was laid off due to the economy. I didn't get too far into php and some ruby, but they were both interesting.

Do you guys think this would be the best bet for me in the upcoming years? I am a dedicated person when it comes to computers, and i am always looking for a way to expand my knowledge.

Thanks for the help.

If you're looking for a more advanced programming position, then it may benefit you to brush up on basic algebra/geometry. If you're doing something math related, take some trig/calculus classes.

It goes without saying that if you want to stand out, then having "irreplaceable" skills in a certain area will help. That area doesn't necessarily need to be math. If you're doing some type of web design then being an artist will be much more helpful. But you might want to avoid a career using Mathematica in that case.

P.S. when I reference the "projects I've done", I mean those I've done on my free time. What I've done in computer class required very little math.

 

[slugg]

Oh yea... if you ever want to go to graduate school, then it's a clear choice: study math!

It really depends on what you want to do. I'm absolutely infatuated with computer vision, and there's a ton of math in that. That's just me, so its up to you to play around and see what you want to do

 

[V3LCR0]

WOW! Thanks for the replies guys! My teacher for my pre calculus class is really putting time and effort into keeping me up to speed with my math. She is having me take algebra 2 in the winter while giving me tests for every 2 chapters, which is helping out a lot.

All you're responses have been very helpful, and i appreciate the help.

I really didn't like geometry back in high school, theorems and postulates weren't interesting to me, as well as proofs. My algebra is much better than my geometry.

I have taken trig as well, but didn't pass due to the second to last test with identities. I really bombed that test, but most of trig was actually really easy for me.

Another question i had lurking in my head is; Is c++ and java the only programming languages used in software engineering? Are there any other languages that will help increase my chance of being a "special" software engineer? If that makes sense at all haha.

What exactly do you use math for in software engineering? Making shapes? I know it depends on which application you're working on, but i am asking just in general.

If my questions aren't clear please let me know. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: V3LCR0
WOW! Thanks for the replies guys! My teacher for my pre calculus class is really putting time and effort into keeping me up to speed with my math. She is having me take algebra 2 in the winter while giving me tests for every 2 chapters, which is helping out a lot.

All you're responses have been very helpful, and i appreciate the help.

I really didn't like geometry back in high school, theorems and postulates weren't interesting to me, as well as proofs. My algebra is much better than my geometry.

I have taken trig as well, but didn't pass due to the second to last test with identities. I really bombed that test, but most of trig was actually really easy for me.

Another question i had lurking in my head is; Is c++ and java the only programming languages used in software engineering? Are there any other languages that will help increase my chance of being a "special" software engineer? If that makes sense at all haha.

What exactly do you use math for in software engineering? Making shapes? I know it depends on which application you're working on, but i am asking just in general.

If my questions aren't clear please let me know. Thanks again for the help.

Geometry is really somewhat of a useless math when it comes to software engineering (Ok, so there are some uses, but come on, How often do you have to know anything about a trapezoid). However, Trigonometry (which does use some geometry) is very important. I find that knowing the origin of sines and cosigns to be pretty important. However, being able to prove a lot of the theorems and such in geometry really hasn't been a lot of help for me (well, maybe it helped with logical thinking, but I can't really say for sure)

As for programming language, it really doesn't matter. Programming for most of the common languages is just a matter of learning syntax and a couple of rules. Going from C++ to java really isn't that big of a deal. It is good to learn C++ because C++ is fairly low level, so it forces you to think of what is going on behind the curtains. However, any programming language could easily be used, it all depends on the application.

Math is used in quite a few places really. It goes everywhere from calculating simple averages, sums, decays, inflation ect. to doing advance kinematics mapping. Math is a tool, the more you know the more likely you will be able to see a problem and say "Hey, that's just like this problem we did in calculus, all I need to do is ...".

I said earlier that you could get by with little math, and this is true. You can write several programs that don't do much beyond addition, subtraction, or multiplication. However, being able to do more advanced stuff will make your job much more secure.

I guess I could give an example of where math would be used more. In an e-mail server, or perhaps a chat room, ect, math isn't really used that often. Its pretty much straight forward. "Connect, process incoming messages, send outgoing messages, disconnect" type logic. Really quite straight forward.

Higher level math is required when you do stuff like "Lets take a sample of data and generate statistics for it." Or "Based on this pattern in the data what should we do next" Or "we have this image that we want to change in some way based on what it looks like". This sort of stuff needs some pretty intensive math. Game programming, 3d rendering, video processing or image manipulation are all some applications that require the computer to hit the ALU more frequently then not .

I would at least recommend learning up to calculus. Calculus is just so useful to know that it's a shame it gets such a bad rap for being too complex. My other recommendation would be to take some sort of logic and probability course. Both of those are fairly useful to know when programming.

 

[Markbnj]

Higher level math is required when you do stuff like "Lets take a sample of data and generate statistics for it." Or "Based on this pattern in the data what should we do next" Or "we have this image that we want to change in some way based on what it looks like". This sort of stuff needs some pretty intensive math. Game programming, 3d rendering, video processing or image manipulation are all some applications that require the computer to hit the ALU more frequently then not .

Very good examples. In my experience, though, the people who design such algorithms are often not the same people who implement them in production systems.

The vast majority of software developers use very little math in their careers, for the simple reason that the vast majority of systems require relatively little math.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: Markbnj

Higher level math is required when you do stuff like "Lets take a sample of data and generate statistics for it." Or "Based on this pattern in the data what should we do next" Or "we have this image that we want to change in some way based on what it looks like". This sort of stuff needs some pretty intensive math. Game programming, 3d rendering, video processing or image manipulation are all some applications that require the computer to hit the ALU more frequently then not .

Very good examples. In my experience, though, the people who design such algorithms are often not the same people who implement them in production systems.

The vast majority of software developers use very little math in their careers, for the simple reason that the vast majority of systems require relatively little math.

Yeah, but the fun stuff is in designing those algorithms.

Ill be honest though, I'm not a software engineer. I just a lowly student studying computer engineering (so I don't have a real world view of how things are done quite yet). Though my classes overlap quite a bit with CS majors.

Mark does bring up a good point though. Most problems already have ready made solutions coded for them. The trick is to arrange all of those solutions in a manner that makes a working program. Getting familiar with different libraries, or at least how to find them is pretty indispensable for a software engineer.

 

[Markbnj]

My Dad is a certified Professional Engineer (PE) with a degree in Mechanical Engineering from General Motors Institute. So I never use the term "software engineering" around him, because he would snort at me.

 

[V3LCR0]

Thank you very much for the examples Cogman, they really help out. I appreciate all the help you guys have given me.

I don't want to wait to ask questions, and realize in the future this is something i don't want to do.

I am looking for a good book to start off learning c++ for a beginner. I learned html and css quite easily and found no troubles.

Is there a book you guys would recommend to me that is great with examples, and shows step by step instructions of c++?

Thanks.

 

[Cogman]

http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?t=74078

There is a pretty good list of books to help you learn c++. Also, those forums are pretty good all around if you have specific c++ questions (we are pretty good here as well mind you)

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

What's going to be useful in terms of math for a programmer is unspecified. It's like determining what's going to be useful to you in management - the details matter too much.
People designing, say, a web email app aren't going to have much use for geometry at all.
People designing, say, a website for a manufacturer of shutters are likely to have much much more use for geometry. I don't expect every programmer is ever going to have the need to calculate the intersection of two circles, or a circle and a line, or to find a circle with a given radius tangent to two lines. But I've had to do all those.

 

[JavaMomma]

Math is important! I'm a CS Major - Math and the more advanced algorithms classes is what will separate you from the people with diplomas and IT degrees. I work doing mostly back-end programming with a team of developers making a Windows based business application. For what I do... I've find linear algebra to useful from time to time... calculus, hmm, not so much, sucks because I did calc I, II and III...

 

[sourceninja]

Math is very important. Especially the deeper you get into the system. I really wish I spent more time studying math when I was in school. I find myself wasting time tracking down guys to explain the best math to use for different problems a lot. Sure I don't need to understand the math to use it (thus a computer), but if I did I could get my job done faster.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

For the most part, I don't use math at work much. If there is any question as to whether or not your future software will work on a set of target hardware ,the only way to get past design reviews is to demonstrate that you wrote prototypical software of anything processor intensive and show that the target hardware will be sufficient. All the big O crap means little to nothing in the real world. You need to know how to write fast code, but in reality, you have to show that it will work on the hardware provided.

You'll need to know math to get through school though. And depending on your job you will need to know certain mathematical concepts. Like if you work doing electrical circuit emulation you will need to know control systems and differential equations among other things. In the real world, you will probably need to understand the mathematical concepts more than having to do the math.

 

[juiio]

I've been in the industry for ten years now. Most programming jobs don't require much math. I've interviewed a lot of people for a variety of positions at multiple companies, and have never once asked anyone a math question. There are obviously some jobs that require it, but for the most part, not being able to do trig, calculus, or beyond, is not the end of the world.

 

[XBoxLPU]

My local university offered a Computer Information Systems (CIS) option as a part of a Computer Science Degree. A real good mix of programming, business and math classes but not to much of either. Less programming and math classes than a standard CS degree

 

[Kyteland]

A strong math background is absolutely necessary if you want to be a good programmer. While you may not encounter a lot of Calc or DiffEq in your day to day programming tasks, it teaches you how to solve problems and to think algorithmically which are very important skills in the profession.

Take a look at the "math" tag on stackoverflow.com to see how programmers generally feel about this.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: Kyteland

Take a look at the "math" tag on stackoverflow.com to see how programmers generally feel about this.

With all due respect, most of the stuff tagged as "math" on stack overflow doesn't tell us anything about how programmers feel about math in general. The first question deals with addition and element borders, while the higher math stuff is mostly people asking "how to" questions, which are answered as a matter of course.

I'm technically a math major, and I'd argue that math can be a good skill for programmers to have. I don't see how it's essential, even from a problem-solving standpoint.

 

[Kyteland]

Originally posted by: presidentender
With all due respect, most of the stuff tagged as "math" on stack overflow doesn't tell us anything about how programmers feel about math in general. The first question deals with addition and element borders, while the higher math stuff is mostly people asking "how to" questions, which are answered as a matter of course.

I'm technically a math major, and I'd argue that math can be a good skill for programmers to have. I don't see how it's essential, even from a problem-solving standpoint.

I see 50% of the questions on the first page as similar to the OPs question. That seems pretty relevant to me.


As for it being essential, to quote Code Complete:

In programming specifically, many studies have shown order of magnitude differences in the quality of the programs written, the sizes of the programs written, and the productivity of the programmers. The original study that showed huge variations in individual programming productivity was conducted in the late 1960s by Sackman, Erikson, and Grant (1968). They studied professional programmers with an average of 7 years' experience and found that the ratio of initial coding time between the best and worst programmers was about 20:1; the ratio of debugging times over 25:1; of program sizes 5:1; and of program execution speed about 10:1. They found no relationship between a programmer's amount of experience and code quality or productivity. (Code Complete, page 548)

And that difference in ability is exactly what I'm referring to when I say that a strong math background in absolutely essential. I'm not saying you can't do the job without it, but its essential to be a good programmer. A strong math background allows you to write better programs, faster.

As some background, I have a degree in theoretical computer science with a minor in mathematics. My title is mathematician and I do a lot of numerical programming, but I'm not on the programming staff where I work. The programmers here develop casino games.

I constantly run into programmers who struggle with things because they don't have the proper math background, and it rears its head in many different ways. Sometimes they can't derive an equation they need, but more often they "solve" problems very badly because they simply don't know any better. Their solutions produce correct answers, but they don't perform well and they don't understand why.

There's a reason that most of the upper level CS courses many curriculum are actually math classes. That Algorithms class you took was a thinly disguised math class. Theory of Computation, Data Structures, Finite Automata, Numerical Methods, Artificial Intelligence were all classes I took in college and were all heavily based on math.

 

[Markbnj]

I constantly run into programmers who struggle with things because they don't have the proper math background, and it rears its head in many different ways. Sometimes they can't derive an equation they need, but more often they "solve" problems very badly because they simply don't know any better. Their solutions produce correct answers, but they don't perform well and they don't understand why.

No doubt, but I think you're straining the comparison. They're very different disciplines, and the average mathematician is no more likely to be able to design and implement an elegant algorithm than the average programmer is likely to be able to understand higher mathematics. I would say they overlap in certain conceptual areas, with respect to the structure of algorithms, set theory, logic, functions, etc. And of course concepts from math regularly appear in many application domains. Both kinds of people need to have an aptitude for problem solving. But to be honest I would rather hire a programmer with an EE than a mathematician with a theoretical background. In twenty years in this business most of the people I have worked with have actually had liberal arts backgrounds. Very few have had CS degrees. Far fewer have had backgrounds in math or physics.

 

[Kyteland]

Originally posted by: Markbnj

No doubt, but I think you're straining the comparison. They're very different disciplines, and the average mathematician is no more likely to be able to design and implement an elegant algorithm than the average programmer is likely to be able to understand higher mathematics. I would say they overlap in certain conceptual areas, with respect to the structure of algorithms, set theory, logic, functions, etc. And of course concepts from math regularly appear in many application domains. Both kinds of people need to have an aptitude for problem solving. But to be honest I would rather hire a programmer with an EE than a mathematician with a theoretical background. In twenty years in this business most of the people I have worked with have actually had liberal arts backgrounds. Very few have had CS degrees. Far fewer have had backgrounds in math or physics.

Most of the programmers I know have a CS degree, all of whom took a lot of math. I personally had to take two additional math classes to get my math minor after completing my CS degree, a trivial amount compared to what I'd already taken. The EEs at my school also had to take nearly that much math.

A number of the programmers I've met who have liberal arts degrees have gone back to take supplemental math courses at the local community college. The CS grads I know who are particularly weak at math are oblivious to the fact that it's holding them back.

I'm not arguing that you need a math degree to be a really good programmer, but in my experience you do need a strong math background to excel.