Software Pirating. . .your take

[Valhalla1]

<< now I swap with a few friends at work. We share. I am borrowing a copy of rogue squadron right now. when I am done I will give it back and I am letting him used something of mine >>




whats the difference between you sharing games with friends than me and a buddy giving each other ftp access to their computers to download and "Borrow" games they had? this is what I do, and I do it with applications and movies and mp3's as well.. so according to you there is nothing wrong with this. I'll borrow my friends copy of XP and let him borrow a few gigs of mp3's. piracy

 

[MikeO]

Why do I pirate software? It's simple.

Because there's no way in hell I have the money to pay $1500 for a computer program. So my options are (A) Pirate the software, or (B) Not use the software.

Either way the company is not going to get my $1500.

If I choose (A) I can educate myself and learn something new (which has helped me in school and in work). If I choose (B), well that's it. I wont feel any better about myself or anything.

Usually I choose the option (A).

 

[auyong]

Some of you are really pathetic(hint hint, tm37). pirates are this, pirates are that, cd burning is wrong, we are not entitled to this and that...blah blah blah. Whatever you say is not going to change people's attitude towards buying software. If I can get it for free, I'm not going to pay for it, regardless of YOUR definition of stealing. If it is readily available for download, even off pirate sites like warez, I'm going to spend the extra 10 minutes of my life searching for it. Free is good, regardless of what you say about software engineers losing their jobs because their companies are losing money. You do not have the right to shove your ethics into other peoples' faces and expect them to listen to you. So, quit ranting about people getting software for free, and go get a life... or maybe you can do something about it like find the next technology to stop piracy, only to find out that the pirates will find a way to crack your new technology! cat and mouse game, I'd call it...

 

[d1abolic]

Most people who are saying piracy is wrong simply lack the resources to pirate software, and are therefore jealous. It's just like ugly women bashing beauty pageants. You see this kind of stuff everywhere, it's nothing new.

 

[auyong]

It's funny how pirates always find new ways to crack anti-piracy technology. I remember way back when CDs were hailed as anti-piracy devices because nobody could copy CDs. It turns out that CDs became the pirates' favorite media because they can store tons of programs in one disc (that was back when programs were at most a couple MBs size). So, this new technology actually made the cost of owning a ton of pirated software very cheap compared to having to buy like a couple hundred floppy disks of pirated programs!

 

[RoninRXN]

<--- is going to now go get a good, restful nights sleep despite the fact that he pirates stuff.

<snores loudly...>

 

[r0tt3n1]

My $.02 There are kinda 2 sides to this scenario. The biggest slice of piracy is attributed to Micro$haft products. Micro$haft has, thru thuggery and sheer greed, become a proven monopoly. For this a lot of us hate them. But, even tho you may dislike them for their `business' practices, it doesnt mean we should pirate the software figuring, `oh, they can spare a few hundred dollars for little ol me...` . When I build or repair a computer system for someone, I expect payment in full. Thats basic business and needs to be protected, whether it be software, hardware etc....
|steps up on soapbox| A solution to MS's bull, which would also help alleviate some of the larger pirating concerns, is to use GPL software, or BSD licensed software or.... you get the point. I use Linux and dont have to pay for it, but I have financially supported the distros I like, and Loki for porting kick a$$ games for Linux!! In a way GPL software makes programmers produce a quality product FOR you, which makes you want to support them. Not force bloatware on you AND make you pay thru the nose for it... |steps down from soapbox|

 

[AMD4ME2]

I came across a copy of Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 for the PC... I played it and I liked it alot!, now I know they will be releasing THPS3 for the PC in March... so guess what... IM BUYING IT! here we have a situation where I would have never even thought about buying the game, cause I didn't think I would like a game about skateboarding. and now im gung ho about buying THPS3 when it comes out.

So, my take is that piracy is all relative... it can have both positive and negative effects on companies... Activision will have one more buyer in March because I got to see how great the previous game was.

The same goes for Blizzard Entertainment... way way back when warcraft 2 was released.. I got a copy of that, and I went out and bought a legal copy of it.. and I have bought every game from them since cause I like their work!!

Piracy is not bad in all situations..

Now if you ask me if I would upgrade my legal copy of win2k to XP by spending $200... I would have to say.. NO WAY IN HELL! XP just isn't that big of an improvement over 2k. Do I want to run XP and see what its all about? of course I do.. but not for $200!!

 

[mithrandir2001]

While only a fool would argue that their pirating of software is just, I'm dismayed that software has to conform to the same pricing structures as physical products.

If you want a Ferrari F360, you just can't pay $1,000 for it simply because you will only drive it 15 miles a week. You are taking expensive physical product into your possession and it matters not how often you will use it. The cost of the product + suitable profit must be paid.

However, software is a different bear because duplicating the product is technically without cost (aside from documentation, media, packaging, shipping, etc). So while I am not dillusional into thinking that pirating software is without harm, it would be nice if software could be priced appropriately for each individual.

For instance, it is certainly nice to have MS Office installed on a home PC but it just doesn't seem fair that a home user should pay the same that a business user will (actually, the business user will probably pay less because of volume discounts). You "need" MS Office for its ubiquity, but a home user often cannot justify the $300-$400 that Office costs. They won't use much of its functionality but they still have to pay the same price as a heavy, for-profit business user. MS Works is allegedly the "answer", but anyone who has used that knows it is no panacea.

Because additional software copies entail small marginal costs, I'd like software to be priced based on usage, rather than simple possession of a license. I think a cause for piracy is that software costs are not in alignment with individual utility. Some users should pay a lot more for software than they do now while others should pay a lot less. Microsoft was thinking along these lines with that OS subscription model they considered last year.

I guess I am looking at software as a cab fare...you use it more, you pay more. Use it infrequently, you pay less. The reason why this could work is because software copies are "cost-free". You could technically give every PC a copy of Office without incurring much higher costs. You just need some kind of "toll booth" technology that can charge users what they get use in the software.

 

[Sketcher]

This isn't an argument about whether or not Software pricing is appropriate. I think everyone would agree - some things are just unreasonably priced. But that unreasonability is not justification for breaking the law.

1. Most games worth their play have demos available. Also, review sites play the heck out of ?em before most of us can buy them ? so it?s not as if there aren?t alternatives to play before pay.

2. There is the often overlooked LEGAL ISSUE of pirating. It?s not a moral question. It?s not an issue of whether the software is too expensive or that it?s just so easy to do. It?s ILLEGAL.

3. It appears to be easy for so my people in this thread to justify illegal behavior because they don?t have $$, they want to ?test? the software, or just do it because they can. These very same people would cry wolf if they were to create something for market others abused.

4. What happened to hard work and responsibility!? If you can?t afford something ? you do not have a right to abuse it. If you want something, work for it! If you still can?t afford it ? perhaps you want something unrealistic or do not really need it. Regardless, earn it.

5. Piracy is a MAJOR financial burr that forces software developers to divert attention from product creation to piracy protection. If that money and the revenue this product is supposed to generate were more directly spent on developing the software then we would have a much better (and more affordable) quality of product to use!

6. NO ONE has a RIGHT to HAVE software just for the wanting. Crying about Bill Gates/Windows prices or "if windows were stable" justifies nothing. It just expresses your stupidity. Software is a product regardless of content or performance. You are a consumer. Did I mention the Legal issues!?

7. Just because you?re behind the safety of your keyboard and are relatively anonymous doesn?t mean that you?re absolved of responsibility. You are stealing by pirating just as if you were to shop lift the same product from a store.

8. You are Entitled Nothing!! No one owes you ANYTHING!! Get a Life ? having a Life by the way includes meaningful pursuits in life, hard work and earning the things you want to have, even if it means you must be patient in achieving those goals.

Here's a way to make some money though... Just do some IP logging on the accounts these pirate posts are coming from and report the suspected Piracy to the Software Vendor. There is substantial compensation for information resulting in successful retrieval of pirated software.

 

[busterG]

I know in my case piracy has helped to drive the economy. If it weren't for pirated software im sure there would be many less people building and upgrading computers. Its an expensive hobby anyway and i know that if i had to pay for each OS Game or App that are usually uninstalled in less than a week id probably still be typing this on a pentium 66 under windows 95 with 16 mb of ram and i would have no reason to upgrade because i couldnt afford to use the additional power a new processor/computer could provide.

 

[Priit]

I would be very happy if one day somebody/something could stop software piracy once and for all. I think this would be very good for alternative software and operating systems: instead of pirating M$, people will be forced to start using freeware OS'es. I think about 90-95% of home users are pirating M$ in my country and most of them couldn't afford legalizing their Windoze and Office (it would cost 6 month income for average Joe). Local terror organization called "BSA" does pretty good job scaring local companys away from using M$ft's software, but they aren't going to do home vistis any time soon. I haven't ever bought any software, but currently everything in my home computer should be 99.5% legal (there might be some shareware programs that I have used over evaluation period).

 

[Tomek]

first of all if I like a game that I've downloaded (Unreal, half-life, etc.) I will buy it if it has a reasonable price tag; ($50 or less) same goes for music CDs.... however, there's no way I'm going to pay $20k for software like Maya; even a student license costs about $5k and it's only for as long as you're in college + there is a pile of paperwork involved. I like Maya a lot and would buy it if I could, but I don't have the money. So at this point I have two choices: a) pirate and use it, b) don't ever use it. Personally, I don't have a moral problem with choice a)

And all of you anti-piracy nazis. Do you really think that if no one pirated software the prices would go down??? think again... Besides the world is not a fair place and will never be one, at least not in my lifetime.

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< This isn't an argument about whether or not Software pricing is appropriate. I think everyone would agree - some things are just unreasonably priced. But that unreasonability is not justification for breaking the law. >>


I made this auxiliary argument because I think the whole issue of software piracy is so readily unarguable (i.e. Piracy is wrong. Dead issue to argue over. Nobody of sound moral conscience can say piracy is righteous.) and it's time to move on.

I was thinking that a change in pricing policy may help stave off piracy. Strong protection schemes seem to be ineffective as are existing copyright laws. So perhaps a change in the game plan is to be considered. I think it is possible for software makers to see increased revenues (at a stable cost level) with a subsequent increase in non-forced license compliance by consumers. Peeps are saying that Windows is horrible, but they still use it, so it is worth SOMETHING to them and there is a price they'd be willing to pay. If it was indeed worth nothing, they shouldn't - logically - be using it. If every single installed copy of Windows out there was legal - and it took variable pricing to attain this goal - I reasonably estimate that Microsoft would see increased revenues over their existing pricing model. Perhaps my business education is coming through, but I am looking for a win-win situation. More revenue to MSFT, more satisfaction to consumers for fair pricing and keeping their PC's software library in the moral green.

But really, some of these arguments in this thread are so unbelievably deranged that I wonder if the main defenders of warez are snot-nosed pre-teens who are getting their first taste of adolescence. I remember going through that phase....rebelliousness was the rule, rationality be damned.

 

<< For instance, it is certainly nice to have MS Office installed on a home PC but it just doesn't seem fair that a home user should pay the same that a business user will (actually, the business user will probably pay less because of volume discounts). >>


Please know what your talking about before you post. When you buy business software you also buy LICENSES for each user. These costs add up fast. So the home user usually does not pay as much as a business user. You speak like you have no experience in this.



<< Microsoft was thinking along these lines with that OS subscription model they considered last year. >>


And look what it turned into. I consider them trespassing if they gather my system info. I don't freely give out my SSN to companies, what makes that info any different?



<< I made this auxiliary argument because I think the whole issue of software piracy is so readily unarguable (i.e. Piracy is wrong. Dead issue to argue over. Nobody of sound moral conscience can say piracy is righteous.) and it's time to move on. >>



How is it a dead issue? You can as easily dismiss ANY issue like that. Terrorism, thats a dead issue right?. American foreign policy is righteous, we are right, everyone else is wrong.
Please, your opinion does not reflect reality son.

 

[CraigRT]

<< If it weren't for pirated software im sure there would be many less people building and upgrading computers >>



Totally true, good point! - If you think about it, it's 100% true. People will allocate a certain amount for what they can spend on hardware, not taking into consideration what software will cost because say for instance they plan on not buying any software. any money saved there goes into the hardware.

 

[Sir Fredrick]

I would also like to point out that back in its heyday, Netscape was extremely successful due to piracy; they didn't openly say it was ok, in fact they said you had to pay for it, but they did not attempt to enforce that at all. Many people didn't pay for it, and that gave them market share. And a lot of people DID pay for it, so Netscape still got lots of revenue.

Of course, Microsoft came up with a better way to gain market share; they just made it free, and bundled it. Of course, they lost money, but they managed to drive Netscape out.

 

[dpid]

especially with programs like photoshop, dreamweaver, flash
there is no way for people starting out (especially students who are trying to master the program) dish out hundreds of dollars (even with student rates. it's riduculous.

and last time i heard, adobe and macromedia are doing pretty well.
they make their money out of businesses who need registered copies or they land in huge lawsuits.

i could see how students could justify it, using it to master a program so they would understand how to use it.
and in only helps those companies... they are getting fresh blood everytime... only makes people loyal to that brand.

reality is, people don't like to keep changing programs after they understood them well.
priracy is like a drug... a bait and sinker.

lures potentials in, hoping in the future they either will be paying for it, or be using it in their lives and bragging about it to their associates.

 

[busterG]

All this piracy talk reminded me of this little mp3 about piracy that I made a remix of.
All you people that are against Piracy listen to this one SONG

All you people that have no problem with piracy listen to the original first and then check out tha

BusterG REMIX!!!

 

[RoninRXN]

<< All this piracy talk reminded me of this little mp3 about piracy that I made a remix of.
All you people that are against Piracy listen to this one SONG

All you people that have no problem with piracy listen to the original first and then check out tha

BusterG REMIX!!! >>



HAHAHHAHAHAH!

<----- is not of sound moral conscience and wouldn't want it any other way.

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< Please know what your talking about before you post. When you buy business software you also buy LICENSES for each user. These costs add up fast. So the home user usually does not pay as much as a business user. You speak like you have no experience in this. >>


Please, cut the condescending talk. The more licenses you buy, the lower the unit cost. In fact, many businesses just buy a few copies of the software media and fill out the rest of their seats with license-only paks (much cheaper than those retail boxes). A business who buys 100 copies of Office will pay much less than 100 individuals who each buy their own copy.


<< And look what it turned into. I consider them trespassing if they gather my system info. I don't freely give out my SSN to companies, what makes that info any different? >>


Since when is your SSN a prerequisite for registering/activating software? The subscription model did not require the gathering of system info; that was simply a hot issue that rose to the forefront during the time MS comtemplated the subscription model.


<< How is it a dead issue? You can as easily dismiss ANY issue like that. Terrorism, thats a dead issue right?. American foreign policy is righteous, we are right, everyone else is wrong. Please, your opinion does not reflect reality son. >>


<eyes roll> It's a dead issue because software like Windows is protected by copyright law and has a defined EULA. According to Microsoft, the courts and Common Law, legality is pretty much cut and dried. Either you follow the EULA or you don't. You cannot enter a court of law and expect to gain sympathy if you break the EULA. Warez violates the EULA and no court will claim warez is legal. That's why this is a dead issue.

I don't know why people have to spill so much ink claiming that they are in the right by downloading warez. A judge and jury will proclaim you guilty and you know this.

As for moral issues, these are more subjective. There are cases where current copyright law is too restrictive and piracy may be borne out of some secondary market needs. This piracy is still wrong and it is up to the software makers and the courts to come up with a feasible solution.

I don't see why peeps' feathers are so ruffled about this. You can download warez with little risk...isn't that good enough for you? Does advertising the "warez cause" somehow make you more legally tolerable?


<< there is no way for people starting out (especially students who are trying to master the program) dish out hundreds of dollars (even with student rates. >>


The last time I checked, the big 4 Adobe titles - Photoshop, PageMaker, Illustrator and Acrobat - were available in one educational package for just under $500. That's quite a bit less than retail. My sister is a graphics design major and she has a Mac. :frown: The Mac hardware cost about $3000, tuition/board is $10K annually, books are $500+ annually, etc. So in that context, $500 for these software titles is feasible. She uses them all the time.

Microsoft has very generous educational discounts. I recall getting Visual Studio 6 Professional Edition for about $125, Office 2000 Professional (full) for about $135. These prices will not cause hardship.


<< <----- is not of sound moral conscience and wouldn't want it any other way. >>


You are full of it. If that's the way you truly feel, then life will present you with some tough breaks. Try to hold down a job or raise children if you lack a moral conscience. You don't have to be a goodie-goodie, you don't have to be a little angel. But to be human and expect to be treated with compassion you need to take responsibility for your actions.

 

[tm37]

SammySon-

Software does not fall into your opec comparison, You forgot that information is much diferent than tangable assests.

Let me attempt to lat this out and we can see if you are bright enough to understand it.

lets use you opec comparison.

oil.

There is 100 barrells of oil for sale, the cost to buy the land, and drill the oil is say $20 and there is a demand for say 90 barrels the company can sell the oil for $30 dollars and makes a tind profit and everyone is happy. Now if there is a demand for say 200 barrels than the bidding occuurs and someone is going to get left out. the bidding continues to rise and caps at say $100 a barrel half the consumers didn't get what they wanted and the company made a huge profit! and if the demand drops to say 20 barrels the company will drop the price to sell all they have and make very little profit. This is simple supply and demand economics. You may have studied this in 6th grade.


Now information is a bit different where your main cost is employees to develope and create your product.

this does not follow the same rule where as in tangible assests the main cost is the product and production, in information it is in the initial creation of the product, the reasearch and development, and production cost are accually quite low.

lets see how this works,

I create a software package and I spend 20 million dollars to create it. My market is say 5 million people and I hope to get 25% of the market wich would net me 1.25 million units sold. now i need to recoup my development costs so 20000000 /1250000 so for each unit I need to sell get 16 dollars for development costs and say 4 dollars for production so $20 dollars is my total anticipated cost. So I list the price at thirty bucks. now if i sell all 1.25 million units i will make a nice peice of change.

lets see what happens if i can sell 3 million units at thirty dollars

(total development / units sold) = DCP (development cost per unit) TC (total cost) = DCP + PC (production costs) and PROFIT = (SP (sales price) - TC)* units sold

lets plug in some numbers

1.25 million copies
(20000000/1250000) DCP = 16 TC = DC(16) + PC(4) = 20 Profit = (30-20)*1250000 = $12,500,000

5 million copies SOLD

(20000000/5000000) DCP = 4 TC = DC(4) + PC(4) = 8 Profit = (30-8)*5000000 = $110,000,000 WOW !

here's where it really gets fun lets sell those five million units BUT lets drop the price by 20% to $24


5 million copies SOLD @ 24

(20000000/5000000) DCP = 4 TC = DC(4) + PC(4) = 8 Profit = (24-8)*5000000 = $80,000,000 OH MY!

if they can SLASH the price in half and double sales then they can still turn a profit!

(20000000/2500000) DCP = 4 TC = DC(8) + PC(4) = 12 Profit = (15-12)*2500000 = $7,500,000

Yet if they cut the price and sales stay the same they will lose money

(20000000/1250000) DCP = 16 TC = DC(16) + PC(4) = 20 Profit = (15-20)*1250000 = <$6,250,000> .

Now if they can sell 10 million copies there cost drops to just six dollars per unit!!
they can now sell that same peice of software for 10 bucks and laugh all the way to the bank!

(20000000/10000000) DCP = 2 TC = DC(2) + PC(4) = 6 Profit = (10-6)*10000000 = $40,000,000.


As you can see information does not follow your simple supply and demand analogy it accually works in reverse! This is due to the majority of the cost being in developement as opposed to production. If MS thought they could eradicate piracy the price would plummet as it sits when I Pay for my software I am also paybing for yours because you desided you couldn't be burdened with buying you though it would be better to steal.

 

[tm37]

<< Most people who are saying piracy is wrong simply lack the resources to pirate software, and are therefore jealous. It's just like ugly women bashing beauty pageants. You see this kind of stuff everywhere, it's nothing new. >>



You are really not very bright are you.

 

[tm37]

<< Obviously you aren't in a position that is bandwidth intensive. Ever try to dl an 8.5x11 photo quality scan? I know several people who make a living doing spreads and layouts that do every week. how about streaming lecture notes in video format for a class? Heck, how about downloading a few mp3s. That right there will take up an hour or so. I'm sure the people you live with will appreciate not having a line for a few hours or so. you're making generalizations about other people's internet usage which are disinformed. >>



PLease tell me why you NEED it, not want but NEED.



<< Ever try to dl an 8.5x11 photo quality scan? I know several people who make a living doing spreads and layouts that do every week. >>




If you have a job that either doesn't pay for the resources OR provide you enough to pay for them legally then you are a moron and should find a new job.



<< how about streaming lecture notes in video format for a class >>



How bout attending the lecture and TAKING NOTES? You know with a pen and paper?




<< Heck, how about downloading a few mp3s >>



I would hardley classify this as a need!

NEED -

<< Necessity; obligation >>





<< I'm sure the people you live with will appreciate not having a line for a few hours or so. you're making generalizations about other people's internet usage which are disinformed. >>



Hey I have broadband but If I had to make a choice I would make the choice not use my inability to manage my money as an excuse for theivery!

 

[db]

Heads up if you are sharing on a network:
Federal Law Enforcement officials say raids at several major U.S. universities are just the beginning of a crackdown on what they call online "software piracy" networks. Agents of the U.S. Customs Service seized computers, and questioned employees and students at MIT, UCLA, Duke, Purdue and other universities. Raids were also conducted overseas in Australia, Canada, Norway, Finland and the United Kingdom.