Soldiers must shed home bought body armor or lose death benefits!

[CaptainGoodnight]

POW's have been against regulations for a while now, and I am not surprised to see it extended to body armor. The Army buys all the same stuff for its soldiers for a reason. By allowing individual soliders with different equipment creates a logistical nightmare.

Edit: POW = Privately Owned Weapons.

 

[Baked]

Looks like P&N to me. But yes, it's sad that our government can't provide for our soldiers the best armors, resulting in the families of soldiers buying armors that are "adequate" for real combat.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

It's kinda of a mute point since most soldiers are killed by IED's and body shot kills are almost nil as I have seen the L3 plates stop 7.62 at point blank range.

 

[John P]

Looks like P&N to me. But yes, it's sad that our government can't provide for our soldiers the best armors, resulting in the families of soldiers buying armors that are "adequate" for real combat.

Yes, your comment does belong in P&N.

However, I would like to see more discussion about the FACTS about body armor, how it's issued from people who have been there, testing, application of training and regulations etc... FACTS people.... FACTS.....

 

[Ime]

Does this new armor stop bombs? I thought of our troops getting killed in Iraq were getting blown up by IED's, not shot.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Specop 007
First off, I'm a bit skeptical of exactly how this went down.

Dragon Skin, from everything I've heard, is the cats ass of armor. That said, what happens when a GI dies wearing Dragon Skin instead of the issued stuff? Is Dragon Skin proven to be better then the issued stuff?

As for denying benefits, I'm also skeptical on that. *I* would venture to say its a commander overstepping his bounds, but obviously I cant say that for sure.

yes its better, it can take multiple hits and still stop the rounds. the ceramic plate crap will stop a round, but only one round and it turns to dust and only if the troop is hit in the center of the chest or center of the back. I wore that stuff, its freicken heavy each plate is like 18 pounds. i have no idea how much dragonskin weighs since i have only seen it on tv and have no personal experience with it.

Will it stop 7.62R? That has been deployed in Iraq, and the ceramic plates will stop it.

from the demo i saw on tv Dragonskin will stop multiple 30-06 hits, the ceramic plates will not, on the first impact the plate shatters in to dust.

 

[GoingUp]

Somehow this is all Bush's fault.

 

[DainBramaged]

If I were single, as I am, I would tell the Army to go fvck themselves.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Specop 007
First off, I'm a bit skeptical of exactly how this went down.

Dragon Skin, from everything I've heard, is the cats ass of armor. That said, what happens when a GI dies wearing Dragon Skin instead of the issued stuff? Is Dragon Skin proven to be better then the issued stuff?

As for denying benefits, I'm also skeptical on that. *I* would venture to say its a commander overstepping his bounds, but obviously I cant say that for sure.

yes its better, it can take multiple hits and still stop the rounds. the ceramic plate crap will stop a round, but only one round and it turns to dust and only if the troop is hit in the center of the chest or center of the back. I wore that stuff, its freicken heavy each plate is like 18 pounds. i have no idea how much dragonskin weighs since i have only seen it on tv and have no personal experience with it.

Will it stop 7.62R? That has been deployed in Iraq, and the ceramic plates will stop it.

from the demo i saw on tv Dragonskin will stop multiple 30-06 hits, the ceramic plates will not, on the first impact the plate shatters in to dust.

? I always thought the standard issues level 4 ceramic chest plates plates could stop 5 rounds as long as the rounds are decently distributied and not on top of each other.

I am doing some research no this dragonskin and it looks really nice. I was wondering when there weould be level III flexable armour available. Not bad for around 20-25lbs toprovide level 3 protection not just for the chest/back and sometimes groin/sides and rarely shoulder, but also catches bullets that can find thier way between the plates for full torso protection. If this is the real deal, it's sorta like the holy grail of body armor, though Im skeptical as to how it would hold up under battle conditions during close quarters combat, i.e. the room to room combat.

 

[suse920]

Originally posted by: DainBramaged
If I were single, as I am, I would tell the Army to go fvck themselves.

Spoken like a true American

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Specop 007
First off, I'm a bit skeptical of exactly how this went down.

Dragon Skin, from everything I've heard, is the cats ass of armor. That said, what happens when a GI dies wearing Dragon Skin instead of the issued stuff? Is Dragon Skin proven to be better then the issued stuff?

As for denying benefits, I'm also skeptical on that. *I* would venture to say its a commander overstepping his bounds, but obviously I cant say that for sure.

yes its better, it can take multiple hits and still stop the rounds. the ceramic plate crap will stop a round, but only one round and it turns to dust and only if the troop is hit in the center of the chest or center of the back. I wore that stuff, its freicken heavy each plate is like 18 pounds. i have no idea how much dragonskin weighs since i have only seen it on tv and have no personal experience with it.

Will it stop 7.62R? That has been deployed in Iraq, and the ceramic plates will stop it.

from the demo i saw on tv Dragonskin will stop multiple 30-06 hits, the ceramic plates will not, on the first impact the plate shatters in to dust.

? I always thought the standard issues level 4 ceramic chest plates plates could stop 5 rounds as long as the rounds are decently distributied and not on top of each other.

I am doing some research no this dragonskin and it looks really nice. I was wondering when there weould be level III flexable armour available. Not bad for around 20-25lbs toprovide level 3 protection not just for the chest/back and sometimes groin/sides and rarely shoulder, but also catches bullets that can find thier way between the plates for full torso protection. If this is the real deal, it's sorta like the holy grail of body armor, though Im skeptical as to how it would hold up under battle conditions during close quarters combat, i.e. the room to room combat.

In my former unit wore the interceptor IBA. Talking to some of my buddies they are not crazy about the idea of having to wear more.

It, with weapon and full battle load comes to around 60 lb. It can be almost unbearable during the summer months in Iraq. We've just been issued the upgraded SAPPI plates which are even heavier. We've lost two guys in our unit to EFP. Not much the interceptor plus can do about that. It has saved lives however and we wont argue that.

I hate it when people claim the reason that their pet solution XYZ is not done because it "costs too much". I don't think many people have a grip on exactly how much is spent training and equipping soldiers.

The balancing act of cost vs protection vs mobility vs lethality of projectiles been around since the seige of Troy.

There is good body armor in the civilian sector, but is that armor appropriate for military use? Usually the answer is no. Threats and ruggedness issues in the civilian sector are much different than that in the military. Just buying off the shelf items does not necessarily solve the problem.

 

[RbSX]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Nik
That's full of sh|t. There's like 1 set of body armor for every 200 ground pounder.

Source?

Everything I've heard from the guys who are over there says differently.

You wanna know who's full of sh|t? Nik's full of sh|t, usually is.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Originally posted by: RyanSengara

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Nik
That's full of sh|t. There's like 1 set of body armor for every 200 ground pounder.

Source?

Everything I've heard from the guys who are over there says differently.

You wanna know who's full of sh|t? Nik's full of sh|t, usually is.

That has some truth to it. Combat soliders are the first to get new or upgraded armor. All combat soliders have body armor. However many soliders rarely leave their FOB durning their deployment and are very rarely (or even not at all) exposed to combat don't always have body armor. (These people are called: Fobbit's -- soldiers who spend most of their time on base)

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Going back to body armor, lets say I take a round to the chest. The integrity of the plate is now in doubt, and I'm gonna want a new one even if the plate shows no fractures. With an Interceptor, there's probably a spare in the hummer. If I was wearing Dragon Skin, I'd probably have to order it online and wait 4-8 weeks for delivery. No thanks.

And then there's this specific armor itself. It has NOT been proven to be "better". It's presented as more flexible, but that's at a III rating. It has plates to make it IV, but once those plates are added, how flexible is it? It doesn't have the weakness over the ribs like the Interceptor OTV, but side plates are being added to the Interceptor to correct that. They cost less than $500 and add 2lbs. The Dragonskin weighs 8lbs more(6lb with the new plates). May not sound like much difference but that 2lbs is one of the reasons the side plates weren't already on the OTV. The Dragon Skin also costs close to $7500 when it's plated, the Interceptor costs less than $1500(and that's with the side plates).

I have yet to hear or see definitive proof that this stuff is any better than what's being issued, and consequently there's no reason anyone should be wearing it in a IV rating load out. The talk about generals wearing it, and most likely the guys in the article(who are obviously special forces since they are called "operators" and fall under SOCOM) appears to refer to III rating situations. This stuff might be better if all you're wearing is III. I'm suprised that SOCOM said anything though, they let these guys wear bicycle helmets into battle for years(better hearing, less weight).

Why do you people think the Interceptor is awful? There is no fighting force in the world that has anything that even remotely compares. No infantry can go head to head with us in a standup fight. Look at the between 100-1000 to 1 kill/death ratio of the Battle of Mogadishu, using the old armor. The new stuff is even better.

One article from some site no one has heard of praising the virtues of some other form of armor(in no less than 3 articles, and mention it in a forth) and suddenly our current stuff is total shiat. You people are sheep. What's killing our troops is not being fired from a gun.

 

[da loser]

i'm shocked that someone in congress hasn't already issued funds for a study. would've figured it would be good PR, especially for whoever has pinnacle armor in their state.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
The balancing act of cost vs protection vs mobility vs lethality of projectiles been around since the seige of Troy.

Bingo.

 

[RCN]

Originally posted by: da loser
i'm shocked that someone in congress hasn't already issued funds for a study. would've figured it would be good PR, especially for whoever has pinnacle armor in their state.

I thought they did but there are existing contracts. Pinnacle may provide future armor. If any study needs to be done it should be if the current contracts should be broken due to crappy production quality.




From Pinnacles site:

Pinnacle Armor awarded DOD contract for development of"Flexible-Modular Body Armor For Armor Piercing Protection"

Fresno, CA (July 07, 2003 - 2005 extended) -- Pinnacle Armor announced today that it has been awarded a Phase 2, Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) contract by the Department of Defense (DOD) for the development of ?Flexible-Modular Body Armor for Armor Piercing Protection.?

Pinnacle Armor?s Phase 1 contract successfully demonstrated a novel projectile defeat mechanism that could lead to a new, flexible, light-weight, multiple-repeat hit capable armor system to replace the current rigid body armor plate systems. The U. S. Army Research Laboratory, Weapons & Materials Research Directorate (ARL) in Aberdeen, Maryland, is administering the twenty four-month Phase 2 contract.

?This approach represents a real departure from traditional body armor plate technology development and compliments many other developments in advanced materials and future body armor configurations,? said Thomas Haduch of ARL. ?As the first generation of the U.S. Army?s Objective Force Warrior takes shape, enabling technologies like Pinnacle?s Flexible Body Armor will have a major impact on potential ballistic protection solutions to meet future protection requirements. This is truly an innovative body armor solution and is a significant step forward in body armor technology which will greatly enhance personnel survivability, making for a more deployable force through enhancing soldier protection and mobility,? Haduch said.

?This comment follows the debut last year of a 26% reduction in weight of our current flexible high-power rifle defeating body armor, that has maintained unmatched multiple-hit ballistic performance at accelerated velocities,? said Murray Neal the designer of this technology at Pinnacle Armor.

Neal said, ?We are extremely pleased that the Department of Defense has recognized the true viability of the SOV flexible armor for the future warrior programs and as a compliment to the existing OTV garments for enhanced technology insertion. This now provides the capability for the soldier to not only have enhanced multiple threat defeating flexible armor, but also allows for the entire torso to be protected, instead of minimal coverage front and rear.?

?In addition to flexible body armor, the other applications for this technology is currently being developed for aircraft, vessels and vehicles currently though the 14.5mm threat, with reduced weight and enhanced ballistic performance.? Neal said.

Pinnacle Armor provides consulting, design, fabrication, manufacturing and installation of armors for ballistic, explosive blast and forced entry threats. The armors are utilized for such applications as vehicles, vessels, aircraft, facilities and flexible body armor.

 

[John P]

Going back to body armor, lets say I take a round to the chest. The integrity of the plate is now in doubt, and I'm gonna want a new one even if the plate shows no fractures. With an Interceptor, there's probably a spare in the hummer. If I was wearing Dragon Skin, I'd probably have to order it online and wait 4-8 weeks for delivery. No thanks.
And then there's this specific armor itself. It has NOT been proven to be "better". It's presented as more flexible, but that's at a III rating. It has plates to make it IV, but once those plates are added, how flexible is it? It doesn't have the weakness over the ribs like the Interceptor OTV, but side plates are being added to the Interceptor to correct that. They cost less than $500 and add 2lbs. The Dragonskin weighs 8lbs more(6lb with the new plates). May not sound like much difference but that 2lbs is one of the reasons the side plates weren't already on the OTV. The Dragon Skin also costs close to $7500 when it's plated, the Interceptor costs less than $1500(and that's with the side plates).

I have yet to hear or see definitive proof that this stuff is any better than what's being issued, and consequently there's no reason anyone should be wearing it in a IV rating load out. The talk about generals wearing it, and most likely the guys in the article(who are obviously special forces since they are called "operators" and fall under SOCOM) appears to refer to III rating situations. This stuff might be better if all you're wearing is III. I'm suprised that SOCOM said anything though, they let these guys wear bicycle helmets into battle for years(better hearing, less weight).

Why do you people think the Interceptor is awful? There is no fighting force in the world that has anything that even remotely compares. No infantry can go head to head with us in a standup fight. Look at the between 100-1000 to 1 kill/death ratio of the Battle of Mogadishu, using the old armor. The new stuff is even better.

One article from some site no one has heard of praising the virtues of some other form of armor(in no less than 3 articles, and mention it in a forth) and suddenly our current stuff is total shiat. You people are sheep. What's killing our troops is not being fired from a gun.

That's what I'm talking about, FACTS!!

Most of you people need to quit relying on a single media article to form your opinions and get your facts straight before pointing fingers and namecalling. I won't go on since anything else I have to say belongs in P&N......

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: yellowfiero
Two deploying soldiers and a concerned mother reported Friday afternoon that the U.S. Army appears to be singling out soldiers who have purchased Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Body Armor for special treatment. The soldiers, who are currently staging for combat operations from a secret location, reported that their commander told them if they were wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin and were killed their beneficiaries might not receive the death benefits from their $400,000 SGLI life insurance policies. The soldiers were ordered to leave their privately purchased body armor at home or face the possibility of both losing their life insurance benefit and facing disciplinary action.



The soldiers asked for anonymity because they are concerned they will face retaliation for going public with the Army's apparently new directive. At the sources' requests DefenseWatch has also agreed not to reveal the unit at which the incident occured for operational security reasons.



On Saturday morning a soldier affected by the order reported to DefenseWatch that the directive specified that "all" commercially available body armor was prohibited. The soldier said the order came down Friday morning from Headquarters, United States Special Operations Command (HQ, USSOCOM), located at MacDill Air Force Base, Florida. It arrived unexpectedly while his unit was preparing to deploy on combat operations. The soldier said the order was deeply disturbiing to many of the men who had used their own money to purchase Dragon Skin because it will affect both their mobility and ballistic protection.



"We have to be able to move. It (Dragon Skin) is heavy, but it is made so we have mobility and the best ballistic protection out there. This is crazy. And they are threatening us with our benefits if we don't comply." he said.



The soldier reiterated Friday's reports that any soldier who refused to comply with the order and was subsequently killed in action "could" be denied the $400,000 death benefit provided by their SGLI life insurance policy as well as face disciplinary action.

Text

how much is Dragon Skin Body Armor ? and pic of it?

why is it so great?

 

[RCN]

Originally posted by: JEDI


how much is Dragon Skin Body Armor ? and pic of it?

why is it so great?

5k
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/sov.php
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=490

 

[sniperruff]

i've just read "the week" and they say a report shows 80% of deaths could have been prevented if soldiers had better armor.

 

[glenn1]

Plenty of folks here who have never been in or around a SOCOM unit, where the operators are notorious for saying fvck the rules. If you let the guys on the ODA decide, you'd have 12 different solutions. You'd have one guy wearing an Interceptor vest, one would wear this Dragonskin stuff, one would wear medieval chain mail, one would wear a vintage 70s leisure suit, one would insist on going in full SCUBA gear (including fins and rebreather), and the old man would wear a loincloth. The senior leadership has to provide some ground rules (or act like they are providing them, knowing the team guys will promptly ignore them once out of sight) or there would be utter chaos.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: glenn1
Plenty of folks here who have never been in or around a SOCOM unit, where the operators are notorious for saying fvck the rules. If you let the guys on the ODA decide, you'd have 12 different solutions. You'd have one guy wearing an Interceptor vest, one would wear this Dragonskin stuff, one would wear medieval chain mail, one would wear a vintage 70s leisure suit, one would insist on going in full SCUBA gear (including fins and rebreather), and the old man would wear a loincloth. The senior leadership has to provide some ground rules (or act like they are providing them, knowing the team guys will promptly ignore them once out of sight) or there would be utter chaos.

what? you never had magical cloth +10? bling for a wizard. plus his vorpel dagger = l33t

 

[Linux23]

interesting stuff.

 

[IAteYourMother]

Originally posted by: sniperruff
i've just read "the week" and they say a report shows 80% of deaths could have been prevented if soldiers had better armor.

erm... link? Most deaths are caused by explosions which better body armor probably wouldn't helped, unless I'm mistaken