Solution for Isreal -- begin annexing land.

[imported_dna]

Ah, I was looking for a list of Hezbollah's escapades.
By the way, your attempt to rationalize the rocket attacks by the air-strikes is asinine, since we all know very well how it started: Hezbollah crossed the border and made a strike, and then Israel crossed the border and striked.
Your assertion that it is Lebanese territory (although one could think otherwise), and that Christian villages may have been hit, is no more than an attempt to remove all responsibility from Hezbollah.

I'll quote again, for your benefit:

Residents of Ain Ebel say Hezbollah has been drawing fire toward the Christian village by launching Katyusha rockets from the nearby tobacco fields, just a few hundred metres from Ms. Asrouni's home. The militants leave when Israel returns fire, witnesses said.

Yep, everything is Israel's fault.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Israel bombed far more than Hezbollah strongohlds this time in Lebanon, and the time before that Hezbollah didn't even exist.

Yes, but you're yet again conveniently forgetting that the PLO moved into southern Lebanon, started launching terrorist attacks into Israel, and also sparked a civil war between the Muslims and Christians.

It is worth mentioning that the PLO moved to Lebanon after being crushed in Jordan for starting a civil war there.

See a pattern yet?

(exercise for the reader: think about what happened after the Oslo agreement, and how much the Palestinians benefitted from Arafat's presence in Gaza, as well as all those billions of dollars in aid)

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: rchiu
:thumbsup: Great idea, let's apply it to both side. I think Israel might have just handed their land to Lebanon with the last attack. that should end the fricking conflict over there for good!!

After discounting for Hezbollah fighters, fabricated civilian deaths, and civilian deaths due to Hezbollah tactics (i.e. Qana), I dare say you'll come up pretty short.
Furthermore, we should add all terrorist attacks that originated in Lebanon, which was the base of Araft in the 1970's, so you should add the following terrorist attacks, along with the murders in the Munich Olympics.

You better start crunching numbers.

Ha, yeah all Arabs death are either fabricated or justified. Guess we also dreamed up all these roads, airports, hospital destroyed in Lebanon too. Then again, what else can we expect from you Israelis supporters who turns a blind eyes on anything Israelis do.

And isn't it a little pathetic that you have to go back 35 years to find a dead guy with his party no longer in Lebanon to justify this attack on Lebanon? What does PLO gotta do with the current event?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: rchiu
Ha, yeah all Arabs death are either fabricated or justified. Guess we also dreamed up all these roads, airports, hospital destroyed in Lebanon too. Then again, what else can we expect from you Israelis supporters who turns a blind eyes on anything Israelis do.

We were talking only about people, which shows how carefully you read the messages. Besides, if Hezbollah had the financial resources to acquire more than 13,000 rockets, and various other weapons system, then it should also have the cash to pay for the aftermath of what it started.

As for fabrication, I already pointed out this revision; surely, a 40-to-1 ratio is quite remarkable. Also, we have to take into account events like the Qana circus, where the final count I believe was half of the asserted original.

And in case you've been out of the loop, and missed out all the doctored photos (Adnan Hajj), and fabricated stories (damaged ambulances), here's a proof that these people (terrorist, freedom fighters, interpert it any way you want) have a kanck for the dramatic.

And isn't it a little pathetic that you have to go back 35 years to find a dead guy with his party no longer in Lebanon to justify this attack on Lebanon? What does PLO gotta do with the current event?

Again, you didn't read the message. TheSnowman mentioned that this past month isn't the first time that Israel has bombed Hezbollah, and even prior to Hezbollah being in existance. That demands a historical perspective, and part of that is the PLO which setup shop in Lebanon, and instigated a civil war.

Interesting, isn't it?

EDIT:
I forgot a Hezbollah original: Green Helmet the Director.

 

[kylebisme]

How could he not make such pathetic arguments when you want to completely absolve one side while blaming anyone with any relation to the other?

 

[imported_dna]

Oooh, you've grown daring now that you have support.

What is pathetic is when people "prop up dead children for media consumption" (quoted from somewhere), just in order to promote their political agenda. Naturally, these people won't even assume any of the responsibility that lead to their death.

At the end of the day, I'm not the one starting conflicts, and then -- as richiu said -- fabricating deaths.

 

[Lemon law]

There are plenty of unfabricated deaths to stir the blood lust of the most hardened of killers---on either side. Now if people would just quit trying to justify more deaths to
avenge past deaths, we just might actually turn our energies into figuring out how to get a just and lasting peace.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: dna

We were talking only about people, which shows how carefully you read the messages. Besides, if Hezbollah had the financial resources to acquire more than 13,000 rockets, and various other weapons system, then it should also have the cash to pay for the aftermath of what it started.

As for fabrication, I already pointed out this revision; surely, a 40-to-1 ratio is quite remarkable. Also, we have to take into account events like the Qana circus, where the final count I believe was half of the asserted original.

And in case you've been out of the loop, and missed out all the doctored photos (Adnan Hajj), and fabricated stories (damaged ambulances), here's a proof that these people (terrorist, freedom fighters, interpert it any way you want) have a kanck for the dramatic.


Again, you didn't read the message. TheSnowman mentioned that this past month isn't the first time that Israel has bombed Hezbollah, and even prior to Hezbollah being in existance. That demands a historical perspective, and part of that is the PLO which setup shop in Lebanon, and instigated a civil war.

Interesting, isn't it?

EDIT:
I forgot a Hezbollah original: Green Helmet the Director.

Hehe, so I guess now Amensty Internation also works with Arabs to fabricate civilian death and destruction when they said Israel deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure? Also just because one photo journalist photoshopped his picture, all pictures taken in Lebanon are false and Israel didn't destroy anything.

Sure, whatever you say.

if you really want history perspective, just google the Hezbollah history (hint, hezbollah was created to fight against this country occupying Lebanon at the time, which country could that be...hmmmm) and you will see what the source of the problem is. Don't have to bring PLO into this and don't have to bring civil war in Lebanon into this. If anything, all the Israel attacks and occupation had weakened the Lebanese government and give syria and Hezbollah the opportunity to run freely in lebanon.

 

[kylebisme]

Atrocities like this is what gave rise to Hezbollah:

The Irish U.N. troops tried to send in water, milk and oranges, but the Israelis and the SLA men threw it all on the ground. Then on Friday, the routine changed: men, women and children --the youngest a day-old baby-- were all locked in the courtyard and interrogated in two schoolrooms. Villagers say the first interrogation was with Israeli soldiers and the second with SLA thugs--in a room where bloodstains were still to be seen last week on the floor and on two school desks. Scattered all over the small room were objects villagers said were used in the interrogation--chair legs, wooden sticks, cigarette butts in ash trays still sitting on electric stoves, electric coils, and nails with which the interrogators reportedly pierced ears. Throughout the day, the Irish were refused access to the detainees, although screams could be heard and several people could be seen badly hurt in the schoolyard. In the late afternoon, five men were thrown into the street outside the school, all crying and some unable to stand upright. They were taken to the hospital. Although Unifil declines to discuss the "full documentary evidence' in its medical report, reporters who visited the five saw they had been brutally beaten and burnt on the back with cigarette ends. Radwan Ashur, a student, had badly damaged hands; friends said his interrogators walked over them in army boots. Another man had his penis burnt with a cigarette lighter. A short way from his school, young men including Mr. Nassar, were assembled at night by the village pond. They said they were thrown into it and then, dripping wet and their hands tied behind their backs, were made to lie until dawn on the floor of an unfinished shop. "You have to tell us everything about this town," Mr. Nassar was told. He replied: "I don't know anything. I've just come from Liberia." After the Israelis finally departed late on Saturday having failed to find their men, the security report for Shakra showed that 55 men and six women, one of them pregnant, had been taken away, three houses had been dynamited and many others looted and wrecked, their doors blasted off with grenades. Several dozen cars were stolen.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/19860614/said

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: magomago
this is the worst idea I have ever heard.

Yes, that is a terrible idea. Worse than "Jump to conclusion mat"

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: rchiu
Hehe, so I guess now Amensty Internation also works with Arabs to fabricate civilian death and destruction when they said Israel deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure? Also just because one photo journalist photoshopped his picture, all pictures taken in Lebanon are false and Israel didn't destroy anything.

How about you share with us your designs for that silver bullet which hits only Hezbollah terrorists, eh? Don't have it? Shame.

About the pictures, try not to have a seizure when reading the quote below, and try not to make up more things and pretened as if I said them.

Kevin Sites:

As I raise my camera, the shouting becomes louder. Finally, even the men acquiesce to the women?s protests. No pictures, I?m told ? unless we get a letter from Hezbollah giving us permission.

if you really want history perspective, just google the Hezbollah history (hint, hezbollah was created to fight against this country occupying Lebanon at the time, which country could that be...hmmmm) and you will see what the source of the problem is. Don't have to bring PLO into this and don't have to bring civil war in Lebanon into this. If anything, all the Israel attacks and occupation had weakened the Lebanese government and give syria and Hezbollah the opportunity to run freely in lebanon.

Yep, you're right, Israel decided for no reason to go into Lebanon in the 80's, because they were bored, and had nothing better to do, and the PLO had nothing to do with anything, and was busy planting flowers in the Shebaa Farms. Oh, I know, Israel was after all the Oil present in Lebanon.

Any more revisionist history?

 

[Lemon law]

Yes dna---try this revisionist history.

Israel and quite a few other aggressor nations share one goal-----absolute and total victory----which at the same time risks absolute and total defeat. So it was for Germany after 1939, for Japan in 1941, for France under Bonaparte rule in the first quarter of the 1800's, and one can add any number of nations, including the United Sates to that list. But the foreign policy goals are always the same----a win lose situation with the aggressor nation is using power to force a losing settlement on their weaker neighbors. Rather than adopting a position where no one gets a real win but everyone has a stake in a fair peace.

Maybe you read history different than me dna, but the aggressor nation usually gets the short end of the stick in the fullness of time. Something that may be impossible to explain to the opinionated and shortsighted.----but as you watch future events unfold----its something you had better think about-----------you are so mired in win at all costs that you can't see what it may cost if you bet on the wrong horse.---and worse yet you debate minor details---another tell tale symtom of a win at all cost type-- while being blind to the fact the entire forest is changing around you.---------while you are mired in a past based on your own revisionist version of history.

 

[Lemon law]

 

[Screech]

"Rather than adopting a position where no one gets a real win but everyone has a stake in a fair peace. "

Sounds remarkably like pulling out of Lebanon a few years back, and then (a tad later) giving the Gaza strip to the Palestinians (with future plans to hand over the west bank). I guess the Qassam rockets that resulted were a different way of saying 'thanks,' or something.....maybe the Daily Show had it right and they just don't know how to express themselves (yeah, I know they were tlaking about Iraq, but same concept.)

 

[Aisengard]

What's that saying, you give an inch, they take the whole foot. Or like seagulls. You can't give them anything, they'll just keep coming back for more.

There's no final solution for them other than the destruction of Israel. I don't see why more people don't see this, and realize what the real situation is.

 

[Lemon law]

You do have somewhat of a point screech-----but a few factors you gloss over dominate---A. Israel didn't just withdraw from Lebanon out of the goodnss of its heart---it was forced out
after a brutal occupation that lasted 18 years--creating Hezbollah and lasting hatreds in the process. B. Almost the same situation in the Gaza strip---leaving an unviable and unsustainable political entity that must be replaced by something like a Palistinian State to give that population hope for a future---just leaving behind free floating hatreds is not a viable solution to a problem by Israel. C. The one thing that this latest monkey business created in both places is to ramp up hatreds from both places---when Israel's test of a withdrawal counts on hatreds diluting with time---so by that measure, Israel's latest incursion is a total failure and a diaster. D. Israel still is not real about the kinds of things it must give up to get a peace---sorta of a cheapskates vehicle buying strategy---that won't buy a vehicle for peace that runs. All take and no give does not buy peace.--or to put it another way---Its still a win lose situation that Israel demands.

And to Aisengard---sorry the perception by the other side is that Israel done grabbed a mile, and now offers an inch, and you get all hyperspastic when they want a whole foot instead----gonna take more than an inch offer to get real---maybe not the whole mile,
but any talking in terms of inches is just fooling themselves.

 

[CelSnip]

Not only is this idea completely impractical, but it makes 0 sense.

 

[Screech]

A. Ironically, israel did more or less succeed in the short term in the occupation (not now, but the past) in that they destroyed most of PLO there, yet created Hezbollah. Whether or not this is 'good' or 'bad', i suppose, is debatable. B. I agree 100% that there needs to be a Palestinian State, but if staying there was not an option, and withdrawing wasn't a viable obtion either, what was? C. Agreed, the stuff from the past month or so has been a waste of time, money, and lives, especially for Israel, and it wasn't too great for us (US) as well. D. Giving up the Gaza Strip, and in the future the West Bank, is pretty damn "real" for a peace plan. Much better than anything the surrounding Arab states have given to the Palestinians, at any rate. It's a pity all the stuff with the Qassam rockets happened, because that has served to prolong the handover of the West bank probably indefinitely. I find it hard to believe that giving the Palestinians the gaza strip so that they could have their own democracy is "all take" by Israel, especially when it got payed with rockets.

EDIT: and fwiw, the OP's idea is more ridiculous than this whole confrontation between hezbollah and israel.

 

[Aisengard]

And so we should just accept this insane perception because, well, it's their perception and we should respect that? That's not how diplomacy works. Hell, giving land back in a truce for peace. then the other side immediately disrespecting the peace by firing rockets at civilians is not how diplomacy works either. But the world is willing to look the other way in those situations, and blame blame blame Israel when they cry foul and deal with the situation themselves. You want the real reason the Gaza strip isn't free? Why the Western Bank isn't 'liberated'? No sane person actually wants that land. It's useless desert. But when the rightful owners are too inept to actually keep it under control, or if they themselves are controlled by higher powers, they're not going to be owners of that land much longer.

 

[Lemon law]

Can't you get it through your head Aisengard that no peace is absolutely just---and no matter how just, someone will use terrorism to protest it. But most will still accept a just peace and a status quo will become accepted. In 1918-1920 time period the victorious allies imposed an unjust peace on Germany---that came back and bit them 20 years later. Nor can you say to millions of Palistinians---you didn't have enough guns in 1948 and forgot to kill all the Israelies---and you got forced out into worthless desert---now go eat sand and die---well I can't---maybe you can.------there are humanatarians considerations---but I guess some people are too eagar to dispose of those considerations.

And when you dismiss their perceptions as entirely invalid you assume the other sides are totally valid---when its usually somewhere in the middle.---but in the case of the Arab Isrealie conflict the convention wisdom of both sides being wrong goes past the usually to a definite by any impartial read of history.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Atrocities like this is what gave rise to Hezbollah:

The Irish U.N. troops tried to send in water, milk and oranges, but the Israelis and the SLA men threw it all on the ground. Then on Friday, the routine changed: men, women and children --the youngest a day-old baby-- were all locked in the courtyard and interrogated in two schoolrooms. Villagers say the first interrogation was with Israeli soldiers and the second with SLA thugs--in a room where bloodstains were still to be seen last week on the floor and on two school desks. Scattered all over the small room were objects villagers said were used in the interrogation--chair legs, wooden sticks, cigarette butts in ash trays still sitting on electric stoves, electric coils, and nails with which the interrogators reportedly pierced ears. Throughout the day, the Irish were refused access to the detainees, although screams could be heard and several people could be seen badly hurt in the schoolyard. In the late afternoon, five men were thrown into the street outside the school, all crying and some unable to stand upright. They were taken to the hospital. Although Unifil declines to discuss the "full documentary evidence' in its medical report, reporters who visited the five saw they had been brutally beaten and burnt on the back with cigarette ends. Radwan Ashur, a student, had badly damaged hands; friends said his interrogators walked over them in army boots. Another man had his penis burnt with a cigarette lighter. A short way from his school, young men including Mr. Nassar, were assembled at night by the village pond. They said they were thrown into it and then, dripping wet and their hands tied behind their backs, were made to lie until dawn on the floor of an unfinished shop. "You have to tell us everything about this town," Mr. Nassar was told. He replied: "I don't know anything. I've just come from Liberia." After the Israelis finally departed late on Saturday having failed to find their men, the security report for Shakra showed that 55 men and six women, one of them pregnant, had been taken away, three houses had been dynamited and many others looted and wrecked, their doors blasted off with grenades. Several dozen cars were stolen.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/19860614/said

more on torture
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid...6442511220171&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Israel and quite a few other aggressor nations share one goal-----absolute and total victory

That's not revisionist history -- that's plain asinine, since as you recognized in a subsequent message that it wasn't Israel that started the war in 1948.

Can't you get it through your head Aisengard that no peace is absolutely just---and no matter how just, someone will use terrorism to protest it.

That's a funny way to justify terrorism, particularly when no effort was done after the Oslo accord to ease the hatered (as required by the agreement) -- on the contrary, they had the propaganda going on at full force, and probably more effective than ever since the PLO was legitimately in Gaza; maybe that explains the spike in suicide bombings after Oslo.

Yep, let's just ignore the propaganda, and all the stolen billions of dollars -- which led plenty of times to unpaid civil workers; there's always someone who doesn't like the agreement. :roll:

That's why they had a police force, genius.

In 1918-1920 time period the victorious allies imposed an unjust peace on Germany---that came back and bit them 20 years later.

Excellen! Let's ignore the financial crisis in 1929, and other factors that led to the election of maniac.

there are humanatarians considerations---but I guess some people are too eagar to dispose of those considerations.

Speaking of humanitarian consideration, maybe you should read a bit about the refugees in the region at the UNRWA website, particularly Syria an and Lebanon -- it's been 60 years, and they are still only second-class citizens, while only Jordan has granted them full citizenship, or just about.

I guess it was worth keeping them in camps throughout the decades, so you'd always have an excuse to attack Israel. What am I thinking? They still do.

Oh well, you probably also don't think that the neighboring countries have their share of blame in the refugee problem, just like TheSnowman, even though it is obvious there was a call for people to desert their houses in 1948.

Yep, it's all Israel's fault.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Czar
more on torture
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid...6442511220171&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en

Well cry me a river; good thing they didn't use a photo of Al-Durah being shot (as they already had an iconic photo of a kid being "man-handled").

The arrests came after the suicide bombing and the assaults, and not the other way around, and the PLO (or it's predecessors) were well operational before 1967, when Israel did not have possesion of Gaza, the West Bank, or the Golan Heights.

Nevertheless, I see you still want to debate the Chicked and the Egg problem.

 

[imported_toxigun]

I have a better, and even more balanced idea.

For every innocent palestinian/lebanese civilian killed on purpose (Dropping a bomb on a weapons stores, Hezbollah's communication routers and other such examples where people were used a human shields for different militant organizations doesn't count) the palestinians/lebanon get one square mile of land.

For every innocent israeli civilian killed on purpose (attacking a military installation, or a bus full of soldiers doesn't count for that matter) Israel gets one square mile.

Now we will see who stays with one square inch

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Czar
more on torture
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid...6442511220171&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en

Well cry me a river; good thing they didn't use a photo of Al-Durah being shot (as they already had an iconic photo of a kid being "man-handled").

The arrests came after the suicide bombing and the assaults, and not the other way around, and the PLO (or it's predecessors) were well operational before 1967, when Israel did not have possesion of Gaza, the West Bank, or the Golan Heights.

Nevertheless, I see you still want to debate the Chicked and the Egg problem.

so torture is a ok in your book, good to know