Solution for Isreal -- begin annexing land.

[alejandroAT]

sorry didnt mean to sound personal. Its just that i m angered by the "innocent" and "moraly righteous" attitude of US citizens that have no idea what their country is actually doing abroad in the name of democracy and freedom.

yes i mean "dude, where is my country". Excuse my grammar but as you may have noticed english is not my mother tongue.

 

[alejandroAT]

ok...i cant help that feel that we are straying from the subject though.....

what really made me comment on american foreign policy on the ME issue is its two-faced character. It sells arms to Israel to fight Hezbollah and then it does not "approve" of the hostilities. It wants to eat the cake and have it to and that is tossing oil in the fire.

 

[imported_dna]

I don't see how that's like tossing fuel on the fire, since Hezbollah doesn't really care about US foreign policy.

Other than that, I'm waiting to see rchiu reply.

 

[alejandroAT]

am i dismissed then?

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
In regards to the OPs suggestion, does Israel also LOSE one square mile for every innocent civilian that they kill? If so, the Arabs will have exactly what they want....a ME without Israel.

I was going to suggest that as well... Israel would steadily be losing ground.

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: lozina
WhipperSnapper's ideal solution to organized guerilla groups who were established to fight off Israeli occupation is.... to occupy more land! Brilliant!

Not merely occupy--but to force anyone who's on the land to leave and to then take full ownership of the now vacant land. Wouldn't you agree that owning land is good and a value?

I feel badly for the innocent people who are currently on that land, but getting dispossessed and being forced to seek out new lands to live in can happen to you when your neighbors are the Hezbollah. This is why people need to band together and form potent governments, such as forming a Lebanese government that would have exterminated the Hezbollah in the same way that a U.S. government would work to eradicate a gang of terrorists that was attacking Canada.

In addition to taking the land I think the people on the land should be placed in gas chambers that way their kids can't grow up to be "terrorists". :roll:

 

[imported_toxigun]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: rchiu
So if you want to blame PLO for this conflict, you might as well blame Israel for driving 700,000 palestanian away from their home after 1948.

You should've admitted from the start that you are biased, and held the beliefs that Israel "stole land" and "kicked out" Palestinians. If you had, then I would have known how to deal with you from the start.

Chew on this, and try not to choke:

ince 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes .... [36]

-- Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war

"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."

- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183

Also, don't forget that, at the very least, a comparable number of Jews were kicked out of Arab countries, yet I doubt you have any problem with that.

Heh, what else is new, blaming Arabs for not accepting those refugees. Hey, I don't deny that Arab nations are crap for not accepting their own people and discriminate against Palestinian in their country. But would there be such problem if Israel didn't take the land by force and driving those who lived there already out?

And you expect Arabs countries to be nice to the Jewish people after all Jewish people in Israel did to the Palestinian and to the Arab countries in the wars?

Well dude, ****** happens. You start war, you loose the war, so you have to deal with the consequences. The arabs started the war in 1948. They lost. Their people were kicked out and they lost land. Bummer. DEAL WITH IT!

 

[thehstrybean]

If I was drunk or high, this would sound really good...


But right now, it does the big suxorz

 

[straightalker]

Humanity missed a fine opportunity on many occasions when Jihadists were forced out of a large region. The land should be kept empty and gradually repopulated by normal human beings and de-programmed ex-jihadists.

I don't claim to have the details worked out of this hypothesis. I would imagine we could take the Nation of Lebanon for example. Drive them all out and set up deprogramming centers at several refuge camps around the borders. Then don't let the Jihadists ever return. They are terrorists, the whole lot of them. It would be a huge job and cost and take a lot of time, but it's the only humane way in my opinion to deal with the genocidal decrees of the most violent religion on the planet.

What's the alternative? Perpetual warz of hatred. Until... Sooner or later, Israel is otherwise going to plant mushroom clouds all over the entire Middle East.

 

[Lemon law]

Well Straightalker,

There may be that other alternative---that sooner or later some terrorist will get a fair sized nuclear device, smuggle it in, and set the thing off somewhere in Israel. Those not killed will be driven off---and Israel will then be a safe place to live in a few thousand years---just depends on how dirty the bomb is.

No deprogramming necesary.

 

[imported_dna]

That goes both ways, and Israel can "smuggle" it's own device. Not to mention that it won't take thousands of years -- Hirshima and Nagasaki were rebuilt, and people are living there.
Also, you're forgetting that these people will try just as well to use it in the USA, Europe, or even on their own people -- I wouldn't be surprised if the Sunnis used a nuke on the Shiites, or the other way around, as they've clearly shown the uncanny ability of slaughtering each other in the name of -- you guessed it -- Islam.

 

[Lemon law]

Ah yes dna,

So far the USA is the only nation to ever pop off a nuke in anger---back when bombs were fairly clean and small. In the broad sweep of history, the Christian has proved far more savage than their Ismanic counterparts.--and is way ahead in the body count. With the level of hate now, I don't put it past any of those three great western religions to set off a nuke in the name of God.---we can debate how long the area is uninhabitable after we find out how big and dirty the bomb is.

But long odds are---if the terrorists do get a bomb----target #1 is likely to be---you guessed it--Israel.

 

[Aisengard]

Wow. So you really attribute the greatest act of peace in human history to Christian fanaticism. Lemon Law, you really have gone off the deep end.

 

[orion23]

Why is it such a bad idea!

I'm quite tired of "Peace Talks".

They've been going on forever and nothing good had happend.

Those bastards are allowed to burn our Flag and national figures, yet we are not allow to print a funny cartoon or criticize their society!

I'm tired of trying things the EASY WAY!

The west should stop playing nice and blow the crap out of those Sand / Oil lands that refuse to play nice with the rest of the world!

Hey, cheap OIL if not free, for all of us!

 

[hysperion]

Israel's main problem right now is they don't have defensible border lines. All of you supporting the Palestinian's and Hezzbollah need to get a clue. Were the Israelis to put their arms away- the Arabs would immediately swoop in and kill them all. Were the Palestinian's or Hezzbollah to disarm- nothing would happen to them other then maybe increase their standards of living.......The Palestinian's are essentially disarmed right now when fighting the Israeli's anyway........

My opinion is Israel should pay a substantial sum of cash to Egypt to give a chunk of land to the Palestinians so they can create their own nation within Egypt. This will allow Israel to use that land which is more natually defensible.....

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
oh dont dare mention pearl harbour. You annihilated 2 cities and hundreds of thousands of poeple for that and you still make movies about it and claim how unfair it was!!!!!

First off, we didn't drop the atomic bombs as revenge for Pearl Harbor, but to end the war.
By dropping the bombs that ended World War 2 millions of people were saved, read some history.

More civilians died in the Battle of Okinawa than died in the atomic bombs.
It was estimated at the time that an invasion of Japan would have resulted in 400,000 - 800,000 Amercian deaths and 5 to 10 MILLION Janapese deaths.
On top of that Japan ordered the execution of all allied POWs if we invaded Japan, over 100,000.

Based on these facts I think dropping the bombs was the smart thing to do.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: hysperion
Israel's main problem right now is they don't have defensible border lines. All of you supporting the Palestinian's and Hezzbollah need to get a clue. Were the Israelis to put their arms away- the Arabs would immediately swoop in and kill them all. Were the Palestinian's or Hezzbollah to disarm- nothing would happen to them other then maybe increase their standards of living.......The Palestinian's are essentially disarmed right now when fighting the Israeli's anyway........

As the quote goes-
If the Palestinians put away their weapons there would be no more fighting,
If the Israelis put away their weapons there would be no more Isreal.

 

[hysperion]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: hysperion
Israel's main problem right now is they don't have defensible border lines. All of you supporting the Palestinian's and Hezzbollah need to get a clue. Were the Israelis to put their arms away- the Arabs would immediately swoop in and kill them all. Were the Palestinian's or Hezzbollah to disarm- nothing would happen to them other then maybe increase their standards of living.......The Palestinian's are essentially disarmed right now when fighting the Israeli's anyway........

As the quote goes-
If the Palestinians put away their weapons there would be no more fighting,
If the Israelis put away their weapons there would be no more Isreal.

Didn't know their was already a quote for that ........Doesn't suprise me though because it's the truth.......

 

[0roo0roo]

i've heard this plan put out by Alan Dershowitz. to reset to a starting point of 67, give warning, and then if violence continues, permanently annex chunks of land in the name of each suicide attacker/terrorist attack. its a good plan, link violence to the permanent loss of land. the palestinian terrorists currently lose absolutely ntohing and gain everthing from attacks, such a plan would take that away. the only problem is you could never get the un behind such a plan so the terrorists would simply ignore it all and just attack regardless. plus, such a plan should have been started decades ago, not now, its a bit too late. after all the attacks israel already deserves much of the land it has already built a wall around.

 

[imported_dna]

That's ridicilous -- you don't want to give up the Golan Heights, since that puts you at a disadvantage against the Syrians. If they were to start a war, imagine the amount of effort necessary to retake the Golan.

Anyway, the UN didn't even manage to agree on the definition of terror, while resolutions against Israel are rubber-stamped in minutes.

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
In regards to the OPs suggestion, does Israel also LOSE one square mile for every innocent civilian that they kill? If so, the Arabs will have exactly what they want....a ME without Israel.

I was going to suggest that as well... Israel would steadily be losing ground.

It's a weaselly suggestion, and a snotty one. Israel responds to terrorist attacks with military action. Terrorist attacks are in no way morally equivalent to military responses prompted by them.

 

[alejandroAT]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
oh dont dare mention pearl harbour. You annihilated 2 cities and hundreds of thousands of poeple for that and you still make movies about it and claim how unfair it was!!!!!

First off, we didn't drop the atomic bombs as revenge for Pearl Harbor, but to end the war.

you may think that but is are also information that japan was ready to surrender before the bombs were dropped. Information that you probably will deny (or never heard of) since it is not to your best interest.

By dropping the bombs that ended World War 2 millions of people were saved, read some history.

would that be american history i'd have to read mate? sorry.....no such library around here.

More civilians died in the Battle of Okinawa than died in the atomic bombs..

well i guess that makes it allright then.

It was estimated at the time that an invasion of Japan would have resulted in 400,000 - 800,000 Amercian deaths and 5 to 10 MILLION Janapese deaths.

estimated by who? people like those who estimated the outcome of Vietnam or Iraq? People who estimated the outcome of the attempt to assassinate Castro? the ones who estimated how many hospitals stealth bombers would hit in kossovo? you can change "french fries" to "freedom fries" but they are still french to everyone else.

On top of that Japan ordered the execution of all allied POWs if we invaded Japan, over 100,000.

I'm 100% with you on this one.. Japan wasnt exactly an angel back then, far from it. But they never claimed to be the liberators of the world and never waved the flag of morality and self rightiousness. On the contrary, they have let go and made every effort to embrace american culture and understand their neighbour. They accepted 2 nuked cities as punishment and never waved any "pearl harbour" flags.

Based on these facts I think dropping the bombs was the smart thing to do.

based on these estimations you mean.


But thats what you ppl always say before blasting others to oblivion. You always know the "facts" and everyone else is lost in a sea of controled information and dictatorship. You truelly are the only free ppl on this earth.

But count the number of people killed by america over the past 50 years around the world and then come and tell me you are not the actual terrorist here. Do you think that the world is turning anti-american for no reason at all? THE WOLRD IS AFRAID OF YOU. is it an international conspiracy against you poor innocent souls? allow me to disagree coming from a country that actually has a US military base within its borders for no other reason but to control and intimidate. A country that had a military coop supported by the CIA for 7 years that tortured and killed thousands of people that were not willing to comform to the will of the new roman empire. Remember "if you are not with us you are against us"? well that phrase has been in effect for decades. Its just that noone had the "cowboyness" to say it out loud till Bushminator came along.

I dont expect you to accept it though. One has the obligation to support one's country (first we take care of our family and then the rest) and i would probably do the same if i was an american. I m not judging your actions so much as i'm judging your self-rightiousness and morality lectures when you have so much blood on your hands (by "you" i mean "you lot" not you personally.

But this discussion belongs to a different thread so i will bother you no more with it. I have noticed that i m the only non-american on this forum and i'd hate to be rounded-up by brainwashed "free citizens of true democracy" . I'm only saying what i'm saying to grace this thread with the opinion of an outsider. Please do not consider it as a "fanatic assault" and dont call me a terrorist as well because i'm not "with you".

 

[imported_dna]

You seem to putting to much emotion into your reply, and I'm sure the person you replied to will have lots to say

Other than that, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the surrender part -- one of the top military officers of theirs committed suicide after the decision was made to surrender; he was the one who also assured the emperor that the US had only one bomb.

Also, what do you mean you can't read the history books there? If you can't read another perspective about history, then how can you assert you know the truth?

 

[alejandroAT]

Originally posted by: dna
You seem to putting to much emotion into your reply, and I'm sure the person you replied to will have lots to say

Other than that, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the surrender part -- one of the top military officers of theirs committed suicide after the decision was made to surrender; he was the one who also assured the emperor that the US had only one bomb.

Also, what do you mean you can't read the history books there? If you can't read another perspective about history, then how can you assert you know the truth?

first i must say how gratefull i am for your ever modest and patient attitude towards the ravings of an overemotional mediterenean .

I was of course exagerating when i said i cant read books written by americans in an effort to make a point. Alas, it seems i failed. What i was trying to say is that someone should not consider estimates (especially when these are expressed in specific number values) as facts. These estimates have failed miserably over and over again throughout american history and thus should be treated with caution when trying to justify extreme actions like the use of 2 nuclear bombs.

 

[alejandroAT]

some links to inform you about the japanese willingness to surrender.

http://www.doug-long.com/guide1.htm
http://skeptically.org/onwars/id21.html
http://www.rense.com/general72/jee.htm

this link to start you thinking on christian fanatics:
http://backwaterreport.com/?m=20050807

...after all, bush said he was doing god's work wasnt he? but he was wearing a suit and not a sheet with sandals so he was probably right!